David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

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TheGodfather
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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by TheGodfather »

blake121666 wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:23 am
These comments look to me to have not been deleted. Can someone verify that for me?
I can see them.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Admiral E. Rastus »

Loog wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:54 am
I don't know what you're talking about but I asked "can you provide a single German document/testimony as evidence of mass migration after the summer of 42 that we might discuss?"

your document showed 2 transports going to Minsk - so yeah I don't think a few thousand people counts as "mass migration". Maybe I'm missing something, you're saying this evinces a broader trend? They easily could have been laborers or just people who had been assigned to take the train at an earlier date and bureaucratic procedure kicked in. No one claims the Germans were always perfectly efficient.
Maybe not. Maybe some of them were recently captured by the Gestapo as having evaded the earlier deportation and put on these transports, and some others were placed in camps for labor, and some were killed - and it says so.
Loog wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:54 am
You mocked my evidence earlier, calling it "codeword reading, elevating local events to some phantom Reich policy"

I think you are guilty of this here to a far greater degree than I ever was. Maybe if you had documentation of 50 such transports, or a German official in Russia saying something like, "multiple trains of Polish Jews arrive in our area on a daily basis",


perhaps a document like this note from karl wolff in reference to arrivals at treblinka, but for the other side of the border:

"… I note with particular pleasure from your communication that a train with 5,000 members of the chosen race has been running daily for 14 days and that we are accordingly in a position to continue with this population movement at an accelerated pace. […]"

I suggest you keep looking, the note you posted from December 1942 also says nothing about the fate of Jews being deported eastward.
There's no reason for me to keep looking, as I don't apply spurious standards of evidence (devoid of political and historical context to boot) and arbitrary cut-off dates. The labeling of transports to the East and as part of a Jewish evacuation "evinces mass migration." So does, you know, "population movement."

The request was for a single document. I referred to one that you couldn't dispute, and you opted to do some flailing. Of course, any document saying the Jews were going to the East, especially in the absence of a change in policy, is documentary evidence of mass migration. That you think that evidence is bad because it's forged or defective is another matter. So for example, when an August 1943 local Gestapo document from Germany retrospectively counting Jewish deportations from the area refers to both November 1941 deportations to Riga and June 1943 deportations as simply "to the East," without naming locations - it says what it says.

You misunderstand the availability of documents with the details you arbitrarily decide must be there. First, if you have any such documents request, address it to authorities that may have them such as the Russian Federation or to Jews whose institutions like YIVO seem to have gotten their hands on German documents related to the Eastern Occupied Territories, not me.

Secondly, you apparently think the 1941 pilot deportations are consistently well-documented on both sides with regards to source/destination, accommodations, and so forth. They're not. (Maybe it's on the site you said you linked to that you aren't relinking, though.) Previously you were just extrapolating from a few quoted documents regarding a few transports to all the 1941 transports. As to the transports themselves the data is still mostly on or from the Reich side and there's uneven clarity as to their destination even in 1941, a time when the Germans didn't even really have transit camps to contend with (it's complicated).

You cited the Salitter report. It's a pretty detailed 9-page account and not something you do for every trip. Of course it was remarkable when German-speaking Jews from the Reich first showed up pursuant to a rushed deportation program and some people noted it in their memos and writings, such as the one-off illicit diary of Felix Landau (he was later reassigned from the area). German Jews were of interest to the Reich; just read Mr. Goebbels' diary. Whom would even handle deportations was a matter of bureaucratic dispute then, hence some collateral high-level comms that were probably low hanging fruit for document capture crews.

For obvious reasons, the 1942 Reich deportations - before and after your arbitrary summer date - are even more data-impoverished yet they occurred. When you were told this, you evaded the issue. Moreover and even more obviously, it is inane to compare Reich transports to the Polish ones. But even ignoring that latter item, as well as sidestepping your mistaken beliefs about the 1941 Reich deportations, a basic sanity check with 1942 knocks down your straw man demands.

Where is the site you linked to, by the way?
Loog wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:54 am
My intention here was to do a compare and contrast between the evidence for both narratives.
Speaking of narratives and creativity, earlier you said:
but it is clear why Germans would have destroyed orders or communicated orally and in great secret about such things, whereas there's presumably no reason for them to have done so for mass resettlement.
I know you won't provide what would normally be part of the bare essentials like dates or people involved, but something is religiously "clear" to you here. Can you be specific and exhaustive as to the reason and the information behind "such things?" Is there something in the general sense the Germans wanted hidden that you can articulate, or just tautologically the specific actions at the specific camps?

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Loog »

Admiral E. Rastus wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:04 pm


You misunderstand the availability of documents with the details you arbitrarily decide must be there. First, if you have any such documents request, address it to authorities that may have them such as the Russian Federation or to Jews whose institutions like YIVO seem to have gotten their hands on German documents related to the Eastern Occupied Territories, not me.
Hold up, are you saying the documents which would substantiate mass migration (to a much larger extent than whatever you've provided) exist in archives in Russia?
Speaking of narratives and creativity, earlier you said:
but it is clear why Germans would have destroyed orders or communicated orally and in great secret about such things, whereas there's presumably no reason for them to have done so for mass resettlement.
I know you won't provide what would normally be part of the bare essentials like dates or people involved, but something is religiously "clear" to you here. Can you be specific and exhaustive as to the reason and the information behind "such things?" Is there something in the general sense the Germans wanted hidden that you can articulate, or just tautologically the specific actions at the specific camps?
Admiral, I used the word 'would':

so to clarify, if hypothetically the Nazis were committing mass genocide, I believe it makes sense they *would* try to cover it up.

I see no reason for them to cover up or disguise mass resettlement or whatever else non-murderous things they may have been doing with the Jews.

Any disagreements here?

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Huntinger »

Loog wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:12 am
I see no reason for them to cover up or disguise mass resettlement or whatever else non-murderous things they may have been doing with the Jews.

Any disagreements here?
This thread is another version of "where did they aka" aka the dissolution of european judentum. There was no cover up or attempt to disguise; hundred of thousands were evicted into Soviet territory prior to Barbarossa; 80 000 Ciechanow juden were evicted in about 1940, as well as the documented hundred of thousands marched across the Sans river in columns.
Those who remained were put in Stasis working for the Reich, part of the Reinhardt initiative while the Wehrmacht was pushing back the Russkis to Siberia. To do that, the 450+ konzentrationslager in the General Government were used as well as extensive use of transports, trucking and walking from one lager to another.

The eastern push did not go as planned, the tidal wave of Soviet forces annexing the camps and people, kept prisoner behind the iron curtain. Quite simple really.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Admiral E. Rastus »

Loog wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:12 am
Hold up, are you saying the documents which would substantiate mass migration (to a much larger extent than whatever you've provided) exist in archives in Russia?
I don't know, I said ask them. I do know that they've played loose in the past and mostly released 'incriminating' documents to Western prosecutors, or prosecutors under Soviet influence, or to the press when they got bored. They have captured probably a significant amount of Trawniki personnel files, some mentioning the dreaded camps, assignments, etc. Your favorite bloggers pointed out in late 2018 that "missing" Auschwitz camp construction documents have been found in a rather difficult Russian archive.

My point rather is this: matters that need not concern the Reich, such as the potential placement locations decided at transit camps or regular paperwork for eastern camps, would have been stored locally if created and never copied to the Reich, unless some Germans emergency-evacuated those files when retreating. While Soviets assigned a lot of people to randomly sweep buildings for German files for intelligence gathering and future show trials, whether they looked where they were supposed to, whether the captured files were deemed important enough to be saved and whether those archival holdings have survived to this date and have been opened to the public is all somewhat unknown.
Loog wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:12 am
Admiral, I used the word 'would':

so to clarify, if hypothetically the Nazis were committing mass genocide, I believe it makes sense they *would* try to cover it up.

I see no reason for them to cover up or disguise mass resettlement or whatever else non-murderous things they may have been doing with the Jews.

Any disagreements here?
Yes, but also confusion. "Mass Genocide" is vague. What is and isn't "mass genocide?" What's the death figure for "mass genocide" out of the "Holocaust" total? What are the instances of "mass genocide" - did "mass genocide" only happen at your special camps?

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Loog »

Admiral E. Rastus wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:18 am
My point rather is this: matters that need not concern the Reich, such as the potential placement locations decided at transit camps or regular paperwork for eastern camps, would have been stored locally if created and never copied to the Reich, unless some Germans emergency-evacuated those files when retreating. While Soviets assigned a lot of people to randomly sweep buildings for German files for intelligence gathering and future show trials, whether they looked where they were supposed to, whether the captured files were deemed important enough to be saved and whether those archival holdings have survived to this date and have been opened to the public is all somewhat unknown.
You're stretching it here (yes it's likely Berlin would have cared about and had some opinions re the treatment and status of millions of Polish Jews deported into a warzone), but let's move on from this point.

I offered the Arolsen archives as an example of a publicly accessible database featuring tens of thousands of documents concerning whereabouts and status of Jews in occupied USSR.

A more telling example may be here: https://www.ushmm.org/research/publicat ... s/download

You can download the Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos free of charge, there's 2000 pages on obscure camps and ghettos all throughout eastern Europe, hundreds at least in Ukraine/Ostland/Russia. Check the sources, they are mostly German documents.

The archives exist and anyone can visit them: Mattogno (who knows Russian) claims to have done so here!

So the question is not 'where did they gooooo!!!' (that ones for you Huntinger but I will almost certainly not be responding to any of your posts so don't bother lol)

but rather- why still no German documentation found showing anything close to the resettlement of 2-3 million people? (both Poles and Soviet Jews unfit for work)

I see a few possible answers:

The Germans kept no documentation about these matters

The historians looking through these archives are uniformly incompetent/dishonest

The Russians destroyed all documents pertaining to resettlement.

Anything to add here? To me these seem quite unlikely.
Yes, but also confusion. "Mass Genocide" is vague. What is and isn't "mass genocide?" What's the death figure for "mass genocide" out of the "Holocaust" total? What are the instances of "mass genocide" - did "mass genocide" only happen at your special camps?
hypothetically (big hypothetical I know): 3 million murdered (not worked to death) in camps specifically constructed for this purpose - does it make sense the Germans would have tried to conceal this? (through among other things, use of specialized language and destruction of incriminating documents)
Last edited by Loog on Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Huntinger »

Loog wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:04 am
The historians looking through these archives are uniformly incompetent/dishonest
The majority of them by a huge margin are Jüdisch. That explains everything.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Turnagain »

Loog wrote:
hypothetically (big hypothetical I know): 3 million murdered (not worked to death) in camps specifically constructed for this purpose - does it make sense the Germans would have tried to conceal this? (through among other things, use of specialized language and destruction of incriminating documents)
OK, let's go with your hypothesis that the Germans murdered ~3 million in camps specifically constructed for that purpose. The question becomes not, "If they did it" but, "How did they do it"? How did the Germans manage to kill ~3 million captives and how did they dispose of the bodies in such a manner as to not leave a trace that the ~3 million ever existed? Do you have any reasonable explanation for how that happened?

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Loog »

Most bodies were incinerated, bones crushed and removed (used as bone meal most likely)

leaving the ash...



So that's the explanation, backed by more than a smidgeon of evidence. And yes, to bring things back, it makes sense why they would do that to the bodies.



"you can count bodies"
Last edited by Loog on Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Turnagain »

Huntinger wrote:
I am sure Turnagain will say something, but it is off topic.
Not going to say much. Loog has made the usual hoaxer claim that, "They wuz gassed an' burned up". A typical, "It happened therefore it was possible" response. Nothing to respond to, actually. The lack of a meaningful response renders the rest if his claims meaningless.

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