David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

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Admiral E. Rastus
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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Admiral E. Rastus »

Turnagain, wasn't referring to you, I think, though someone did leave a comment and delete it.

Anyhow, Loog's claim to superiority in terms of the documentary evidence is mostly based on codeword reading, elevating local events to some phantom Reich policy (such as using the writings of a frustrated camp doctor), and the absurd stance that the Allies captured German documents and dumped them in the public domain as if on Wikileaks.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Loog »

I will respond to this, but just to be clear the documentary evidence you provide of mass migration of hundreds of thousands of Jews of the east in 42 is a few transports from Austria (none later than October 1942) and a letter from a finance minister saying that Jews indeed had been deported east?

Am I missing anything, is this the final balance or is there anything to add?

"The absurd stance that the Allies captured German documents and dumped them in the public domain as if on Wikileaks"

Are you saying the allies (both Soviets and western) carefully filtered out and removed all documentary evidence they found of mass migration (train records, camp invoices and logistics, correspondence, diaries of soldiers, workers, locals remarking on rumors of many hundreds of thousands of Polish Jews flooding into the east)? cuz these things exist (diaries, correspondence, logistical notes) on that site I linked to lol for ghettos and camps set up in 1941 in the newly occupied territories. The logic is - let me know if this is crazy - therefore similar documentation should exist for the massive holding and labor camps set up to accommodate the approximately 2 million Jews (healthy, sick, children, elderly, infirm) transited to the east beginning in mid-42.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Nessie »

Loog wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:00 am
Turnagain wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:47 am
OK, Loog, let's assume that what you say is true and the Jews were killed. The question then becomes, "How did they do that"? How was the killing and body disposal accomplished? Since Treblinka was the largest of the AR camps in terms of numbers allegedly killed, start with that facility. Be specific.
there's no documentary evidence of this (though witness evidence from Germans, Poles, and Jews which has been discussed extensively)

but it is clear why Germans would have destroyed orders or communicated orally and in great secret about such things, whereas there's presumably no reason for them to have done so for mass resettlement. I'm waiting for someone to provide a possible reason for this - be creative!
There is documentary evidence of mass murder at TII from the Stroop Report. Deniers claim it is faked, then deceive by pretending that their dismissal of it means there is no document.

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/1061-ps.asp

"Of the total of 56,065 Jews caught, about 7,000 were exterminated within the former Ghetto in the course of the large-scale action, and 6,929 by transporting them to T.II, which means 14,000 Jews were exterminated altogether. Beyond the number of 56,065 Jews an estimated number of 5,000 to 6,000 were killed by explosions or in fires."
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:59 am
Loog wrote:
that table shows nothing but transports suddenly stopping around the time the operation reinhard camps come online...
However, the orthodox narrative of how the exterminations and body disposal was accomplished is ludicrously impossible.
The denier narrative of the gassings, graves and cremations as described were impossible is based on various arguments using logical fallacies and are not evidence based.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:58 pm
The denier narrative of the gassings, graves and cremations as described were impossible is based on various arguments using logical fallacies and are not evidence based.
Unevidenced opinion. :mrgreen:


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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Admiral E. Rastus »

Loog wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:43 pm
I will respond to this, but just to be clear the documentary evidence you provide of mass migration of hundreds of thousands of Jews of the east in 42 is a few transports from Austria (none later than October 1942) and a letter from a finance minister saying that Jews indeed had been deported east?

Am I missing anything, is this the final balance or is there anything to add?

"The absurd stance that the Allies captured German documents and dumped them in the public domain as if on Wikileaks"

Are you saying the allies (both Soviets and western) carefully filtered out and removed all documentary evidence they found of mass migration (train records, camp invoices and logistics, correspondence, diaries of soldiers, workers, locals remarking on rumors of many hundreds of thousands of Polish Jews flooding into the east)? cuz these things exist (diaries, correspondence, logistical notes) on that site I linked to lol for ghettos and camps set up in 1941 in the newly occupied territories. The logic is - let me know if this is crazy - therefore similar documentation should exist for the massive holding and labor camps set up to accommodate the approximately 2 million Jews (healthy, sick, children, elderly, infirm) transited to the east beginning in mid-42.
I'm not concerned about accommodations, that's your problem. But since you adopt a "That's all? Pfft" dismissing tone after chanting about "zero documents," there's nothing else to add until you come to terms with the the first ones, what they state and how they state it.

Nope, I'm not saying that.

I'm not sure about what site you linked to, but I remember the datadump you did from MKG's reply. You set the documentary yardstick at the early deportations, and I asked you to perform a sanity check with the later deportations. Does it work? Not really.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Loog »

I don't know what you're talking about but I asked "can you provide a single German document/testimony as evidence of mass migration after the summer of 42 that we might discuss?"

your document showed 2 transports going to Minsk - so yeah I don't think a few thousand people counts as "mass migration". Maybe I'm missing something, you're saying this evinces a broader trend? They easily could have been laborers or just people who had been assigned to take the train at an earlier date and bureaucratic procedure kicked in. No one claims the Germans were always perfectly efficient.

You mocked my evidence earlier, calling it "codeword reading, elevating local events to some phantom Reich policy"

I think you are guilty of this here to a far greater degree than I ever was. Maybe if you had documentation of 50 such transports, or a German official in Russia saying something like, "multiple trains of Polish Jews arrive in our area on a daily basis",

perhaps a document like this note from karl wolff in reference to arrivals at treblinka, but for the other side of the border:

"… I note with particular pleasure from your communication that a train with 5,000 members of the chosen race has been running daily for 14 days and that we are accordingly in a position to continue with this population movement at an accelerated pace. […]"

I suggest you keep looking, the note you posted from December 1942 also says nothing about the fate of Jews being deported eastward.

My intention here was to do a compare and contrast between the evidence for both narratives. Here is a more comprehensive list, nothing about codewords except Kremer's use of sonderaktion (which I still haven't gotten an explanation for, I'm waiting)



btw I am fine to have a 1:1 discussion here, we can ignore everyone else since they aren't contributing very much of value, or we can go back to PMs
Last edited by Loog on Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by been-there »

Loog wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:54 am
I ...nothing about codewords except Kremer's use of sonderaktion (which I still haven't gotten an explanation for, I'm waiting)...
You seriously are "still waiting" for “an explanation" of Kremer's use of sonderaktion ??? :o
But this is old, old stuff. :roll:

So basically you are admitting that you have really never bothered to use the massive online archive and resource which is the internet to find out a revisionist perspective on that? :?
Wow!?

Er... ok. Well... Try reading this.
It is an excerpt from an article by Professor Robert Faurisson analysing the diary entry and later trial testimony of Johann Paul Kremer.
Image

MYTH OF THE GAS CHAMBERS
Q: Who knocked it over? [literally: 'put it to the ground'] A: Faurisson.


Confessions of SS men
who were at Auschwitz


by Robert Faurisson

Some SS men have confessed that there were some "gas chambers" at Auschwitz or at Auschwitz-Birkenau. The three most important confessions are those of Rudolf Höss, of Pery Broad and, finally, of Professor Doctor Johann Paul Kremer. For a long time the Exterminationists have especially counted on the first of these confessions: that of Rudolf Höss, which appeared under the title Commandant of Auschwitz. I think that I noticed, on the occasion of a recent historical debate in France, that the Exterminationists seem less sure of the value of this strange testimony.
On the other hand, the testimony of Johann Paul Kremer has been very useful to them. Personally, I think that the argument furnished by Kremer is in fact, from their point of view, a more valuable weapon than the absurd confession of Rudolf Höss...

Before entering into the heart of the subject, I would like to share with you two remarks.

The first comes to us from Dr. Butz. I remember that, in a letter of 18 November 1979 addressed to a British weekly (New Statesman) about a long article by Gitta Sereny (2 November 1979) he made the observation that it is quite strange to claim to base a historical thesis like that of the formidable massacres of millions of human beings on ... confessions. That claim is still harder to defend when you know that those confessions came from persons who had been conquered and that the ones who obtained those confessions were the conquerors.

My second remark is to recall that, in the cases from Ravensbrück where people now know that there never was any "gassing," the British and French courts obtained confessions which were particularly detailed on the alleged 11 gassings. People speak to us about the three principal confessions of Auschwitz, but they no longer speak to us at all about the three principal confessions of Ravensbrück...

...I will speak to you at some length of the testimony of Johann Paul Kremer. You will see how, at first sight, it is troubling, and then how, if you analyse it with a little care, it constitutes a terrible fiasco for the Exterminationists.
I prize the Kremer case very much. It shows how fragile are the proofs that people offer to us, to what extent they allow themselves to be easily deceived by appearances, how much the official historians have misused the texts and how it is necessary to work if you wish, in the study of texts, to distinguish between the true and the false, between the real meaning and the misinterpretation.
This is what is called text and document criticism. It happens that it is my professional specialty. I am therefore going to inflict upon you, to my great regret, a course in ‘text and document criticism’. I ask you to pardon me for the strictness of the demonstration that I am going to try to carry out in front of you... [snip]

5. EXTRACTS FROM THE DIARY: MY EXPLANATIONS AND MY COMMENTARIES

I note first that these extracts contain neither the word "gassing" nor the expression "gas chamber."
The diary of Dr. Kremer was a private diary. The doctor expressed himself freely there. He frankly expressed his horror of the camp. He does not mince words. He compares what he sees to a vision from Dante. One can therefore think that, if he had seen those virtual human slaughterhouses which the "gas chambers" would have been, he would have mentioned that absolute horror. Wouldn't Dr. Kremer, as a scientist, at least have noted some precise physical details about these slaughterhouses which, in the history of science, would have been an amazing invention?

But let us begin at the beginning. Did Dr. Kremer in fact write what they say that he wrote? The answer to that question is no, absolutely not. His text has been gravely distorted... [snip]

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v02/v02p103_Faurisson.html
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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