Birkenau: examining the currently accepted narrative

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Re: Birkenau: examining the currently accepted narrative

Post by Bob »

Cerdic wrote:"Scrapbook pages" is a denialist site posing as a serious page for information about the Holocaust. I wouldn't quote it if you're looking for the "currently accepted narrative" among historians.
Poisoning the well fallacy.
Cerdic wrote:IIRC Birkenau was originally intended as a Soviet POW camp. The idea of using the site as an extermination area came about later.
Kindly inform us about the timeline of your original and alleged criminal use of the camp and provide evidence to back it up.
Cerdic wrote:Useful listing of evidence about extermination in Auschwitz-Birkenau

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ce-on.html
Useful sources rebutting the supposed evidence. In some cases fell free to use search function and relevant keywords:

http://holocausthandbooks.com/
http://codoh.com/library/
http://www.vho.org
https://forum.codoh.com/

And this forum of course.

In many cases, the supposed evidence is lifted from the revisionist book which debunks it so feel free to follow the reference in the list which itself inform readers where to look for rebuttal.

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Re: Birkenau: examining the currently accepted narrative

Post by theblackrabbitofinlé »

Nessie wrote:The lost and found department, full of happy workers, getting a good wage and free to go home at night to their families. One delighted lady has found a new washing up bowl. Another is packing her suitcase for a nice trip to see some relatives back in Warsaw.

Image

The woman holding the bucket is Linda Breder; she claimed she and her colleague were ordered to smile whilst this photo was taken. She also saw one of those chimney fires, you know, the ones that happened every day at Birkenau.
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Ausc ... php#page-3
We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsel, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

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Re: Birkenau: examining the currently accepted narrative

Post by Nessie »

been-there wrote:
been-there wrote:This is the Jewish Virtual Library's article on the Birkenau Camp Kommandant who was allegedly in charge and responsible for the mass-murder of 100s of 1,000s of 'Jews' at Birkenau.
Friedrich “Fritz” Hartjenstein
(1905 - 1954)

Image

Friedrich "Fritz" Hartjenstein was an SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer (Lieutenant Colonel).

In 1942 he was appointed the commandant of Birkenau, the [alleged] death camp in Auschwitz.
He was [allegedly] responsible there for hundreds of thousands of gassings.

Hartjenstein's postwar fate consisted of many trials.
First, he was arrested by the British and sentenced to life imprisonment on June 1, 1946, at Wuppertal for executing four resistance members.
Then he was again tried by the British for hanging a POW who was a member of the Royal Air Force and sentenced to death by firing squad on June 5 of that year.
He was then extradited to France, where he was tried for his crimes at Natzweiler and sentenced to death.
He [allegedly] died of a heart attack while awaiting execution on October 20, 1954.
He was kommandant at Birkenau from 22 November 1943 to May 1944. (Though the above article claims it was from 1942).
And yet after the war he was tried and convicted for:
- executing four resistance members,
- hanging a POW who was a member of the Royal Air Force,
- other unspecified crimes at Natzweiler camp.

Hmmmm?
So nobody at the time thought his THREE trials for executions of FOUR SOE agents and ONE PoW, and other unsecified 'crimes' during his time in charge at the only camp on French soil were rather insignificant compared to the alleged GREATEST crime in known history that he was supposed to have been a key participant in, at the epicentre of the horror symbol of the genocide?! I.e. HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of executions at Birkenau?
:o
Curiouser and curiouser. (appropriate 'Alice in wonderland' reference)
No 'holocaust'-true-believer got an explanation for this then?
Both of the resident 'believers' who have replied, dodged it.
How very revealing.
It reveals.......I don't know anything about him. So I did not bother to respond.
been-there wrote:OK. I understand. Just believe.
Sure. Just ignore anything that doesn't fit your cherished belief system.
Don't worry, no-one will mind. On the contrary. Other true-believers will be grateful. Certainly... Don't shake anyone else's faith by admitting any errors, flaws or complete aberrations of reality.
You are after-all the new ubermensch who must defend and justify an ethnic cleansing, racial purity laws, and decades long acquisition of lebensraum for an ubermensch people in the Middle East by reminding everyone of the necessity of unquestioning belief in what is unspecifically called 'THE Holocaust'.
I have admitted all sorts of errors were made by witnesses from that time. I think Israeli treatment of Palestinians is wrong. You continue to tar others with your very broad brush.

Why not?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Birkenau: examining the currently accepted narrative

Post by been-there »

theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:
Image

The woman holding the bucket is Linda Breder; she claimed she and her colleague were ordered to smile whilst this photo was taken. She also saw one of those chimney fires, you know, the ones that happened every day at Birkenau.
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Ausc ... php#page-3
A good example of the emotive, manipulative pseudo-history and exaggeration that the public are constantly confronted with by an industry of holocaust deceit.
Don't think, don't question. Just feel the horror and believe the exaggeration and historically out-of-context, self-obsessed tale of personal suffering.
Forget that during WW2 there was a war going on.
Forget that in that war all parties deliberately interred people and used them as a labour force.
Forget that all sides in that war deliberately targeted and killed non-combatant civilians in their hundreds of thousands.
Forget this picture which is irrefutable photographic evidence of Linda Breder's actual experience of Aushwitz.
Just read her retro-active version of life in what has become the symbol of holocaust horror and IF you are a 'good' person, emote along with her:
There is no forgetting for Linda Breder,
From her home in San Francisco, Breder, 80, said with tears in her eyes,
"No matter what I do in my life, no matter how many years go by, I am never far from Auschwitz."
...She holds her head in her hands and cries as she remembers the crematory.
"It was burning day and night. The flames were so high.
Fat-ashes fell on the camp. We were always smeared ... our faces ..."

She cannot finish her sentence.
Image
How to explain a picture of her looking well-fed, well-clothed, clean, happy and smiling? Happily, healthily smiling in Birkenau,the infamous "epicentre of man's cruelty and horrendous, "sadistic" mass-murder??
Oh... an evil 'Nazi' forced her and the other woman to smile.

Just believe it.

Don't think.
Last edited by been-there on Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: Birkenau: examining the currently accepted narrative

Post by been-there »

FIRST Interrogation statement of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Camp Commander who replaced Fritz Hartjenstein and was kommandant of Birkenau from 10th May 1944, till 29th November 1944.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

"Auschwitz was an enormous camp to which many smaller camps in the vicinity belonged. As the responsibility for the whole camp could not be taken by one man, it was split, and I was put in charge of one part of the camp [Birkenau].
I was Kommandant of that part, but as I came under the supreme commander of the whole camp, who was my superior officer, my duties were those of a Lagerführer, though my appointment was called Kommandant.
I had under me in my part of the camp [Birkenau] the hospital and the agricultural camp, which was an enormous camp and contained many thousand acres. The number of prisoners under my immediate control varied between 15000 and 16000 and 35000 and 40000 comprising male and female.

There were between 350 and 500 deaths a week. The death rate was higher among the men, the reason being that the influx from the working camp consisted mainly of sick people. When I speak of the death rate in Auschwitz, I mean that all these people died of natural causes, that is to say either from illness or old age. The death rate was slightly above normal, due to the fact that I had a camp with sick people who came from other parts of the camp. The only reason I can see for the higher death rate, not only at Auschwitz but at all concentration camps in comparison with civil prisons, was that prisoners had to work, whereas in civil prisons they had not to work.

In Auschwitz the prisoners went out to work at 5 a.m. in the summer and returned at 8 p.m., sometimes even later. They worked seven days a week, but on Sundays they returned at 1, 2 or 3 o’clock in the afternoon. The work was of an agricultural nature and all the work there was done by prisoners. The whole camp contained about 90000 to 100000 prisoners, but this is only a rough estimate. My superior officer, and the Kommandant of the whole camp, was Obersturmbannführer Höß. There were men, women and children in the camp. The majority of prisoners under my immediate control were Easterners, i.e. Poles and Russians. I have no reason to believe that there were any prisoners of war among them, although there might have been without my knowing it. As far as I can remember there were no British internees. I think the British prisoners were in the concentration camp at Sachsenhausen and in another camp near Hamburg called Neuengamme. It is possible that there were some French people in my camp, but I cannot say for certain. There were more women than men prisoners.

I had three companies of S.S. under me to guard the camp. Some of the guards were men of the Waffen S.S., and there were women employed by the S.S as wardresses. There were roughly 420 male S.S. guards and about 40 to 50 women guards. The men and women prisoners who were outside the camp in the agricultural part were invariably guarded by men. The women guards only guarded the prisoners within the compound. There were about 10 to 14 doctors for the whole camp, out of which two were detailed to my particular part of the camp. I cannot say exactly how many beds there were in the hospital; this depended on how close you could put the beds together.

Prisoners were housed in wooden buildings with three-tier beds. The men were separated from the women and the children were with their mothers. Married people were separated. There were 150 buildings all told, men and women camps together; about 80 or 90 were for men and about 60 for women; 25 or 20 buildings were set aside for the hospitals. The camp was only being started, and it was planned to enlarge it considerably.

All prisoners who died were cremated. There was no sort of service held when they died. They were just burnt. The cremations were carried out by prisoners. All I had to do when a prisoner died was to inform Obersturmbannführer Höß and he would deal with it. I had no administration in Auschwitz. All the prisoners were known by numbers only.

There were four or five cases of people trying to escape whilst I was there. These attempts were made separately. Some of these prisoners got away. No prisoners were shot trying to escape in my part of the camp. No prisoners were flogged; there were no executions, shootings or hangings in my part. I went through the camp frequently on inspections. The doctor alone was responsible for certifying the cause of death if a prisoner died. The doctors changed continuously. One of these doctors was Hauptsturmführer Mengele.

I carried out inspections of the bodies of people who had died through natural causes in my capacity as Kommandant when I was wandering round the camp. Whoever died during the day was put into a special building called the mortuary, and they were carried to the crematorium every evening by lorry. They were loaded on the lorry and off the lorry by prisoner.
They were stripped by the prisoners of their, clothes in the crematorium before being cremated. The clothes were cleaned and were re-issued where the people had not died of infectious diseases.

During my inspections I never saw prisoners who had died through physical violence. When a prisoner died, a doctor had to certify the time of death, the cause, and the details of the disease. A doctor signed a certificate and sent it to the Central Camp Office. These certificates did not go through my hand.
The two doctors worked daily, from 8 o’clock in the morning until 8 or 9 at night.
All efforts were made by these doctors to keep the prisoners alive.
Medical supplies and invigorating drugs were applied. Two different doctors took charge of my part of the camp every day. I remember one very well, because he had been the longest period in my particular part of the camp and be had also served under my predecessor, Hartjenstein. I do not know how long he had been there. His name was Hauptsturmführer Mengele, as mentioned before.

The camp wire was electrified and the dogs were only used outside the camp compound to guard prisoners who were working on agricultural jobs. It was never reported to me that prisoners had to be treated for dog bites. No interrogations were carried out in the camp, and I have never done any interrogating at all whilst I was Kommandant. I sometimes sent people away for interrogation to the criminal Investigation Officer, in which case they went to the Central Camp Office and were brought back after the interrogation had been completed. I do not know who did the interrogating.

I have heard of the allegations of former prisoners in Auschwitz referring to a gas chamber there, the mass executions and whippings, the cruelty of the guards employed, and that all this took place either in my presence or with my knowledge.
All I can say to all this is that it is untrue from beginning to end.


(118) STATEMENT OF JOSEF KRAMER (German, aged 39)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

The Trial (Defence - Evidence for the Defendant Josef Kramer)

Major Winwood (Defence counsel):
Will you explain to the Court how it is that, in the first statement you made, you said the allegations referring to gas chambers, mass executions, whipping and cruelty were untrue, whereas in your second statement you said that they were true?

Josef Kramer:
There are two reasons for that.
The first is that in the first statement I was told that the prisoners alleged that these gas chambers were under my command.
And the second and main reason was that Pohl, who spoke to me, took my word of honour that I should be silent and should not tell anybody at all about the existence of the gas chambers. When I made my first statement I felt still bound by this word of honour which I had given. When I made the second statement in prison, in Celle, these persons to whom I felt bound in honour - Adolf Hitler and Reichsführer Himmler - were no longer alive and I thought then that I was no longer bound.

Major Winwood:
Did Kommandant Höß say anything to you about the gas chambers?

Josef Kramer:
I received a written order from him that I had nothing to do with either the gas chambers or the incoming transports.

Major Winwood: What did you think of the whole gas chamber business?

Josef Kramer:
I asked myself, "Is it really right about these persons who go to the gas chambers, and whether that person who signed for the first time these orders will be able to answer for it?"
I did not know what the purpose of the gas chamber was.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Cross-examination by Major Backhouse:

Major Backhouse: I suggest to you that you went on lying about the gas chamber until you were shown a photograph which had been taken of one at Natzweiler, and that was the first time you admitted the existence of such a thing?

Josef Kramer: It was not so, because between the two statements I was not asked any more.[...]

Major Backhouse: What was the purpose of the Natzweiler camp?

Josef Kramer: To let prisoners work in a quarry near by.

Major Backhouse: Were the prisoners not regularly supplied from that camp to Strasbourg for experiments?

Josef Kramer: No.

Major Backhouse: Was there no gas chamber there before you arrived?

Josef Kramer: No.

Major Backhouse: Was it constructed under your instructions and did you quite deliberately gas 80 prisoners in that gas chamber?

Josef Kramer: Yes, on the orders of Reichsführer Himmler.[...]

Major Backhouse: Did you force these people into the gas chamber yourself?

Josef Kramer: Yes.

Major Backhouse: Did you actually put the gas in yourself and watch them inside as they died through a peephole you had made?

Josef Kramer: No.[...]

Major Backhouse: Did you not describe that the women continued to breathe for about half a minute?

Josef Kramer: One could hear that. It was not necessary to observe.

Major Backhouse: Were you not chosen as Kommandant of Birkenau because you had proved yourself willing to do this sort of thing?

Josef Kramer: No, I do not think so, because I got a special order that I had nothing to do with either crematoria or transports.

Major Backhouse: When Kommandant Pohl demanded your word of honour not to talk about the gas chambers, why was it that you could not tell anybody if it was all legally proper and above board?

Josef Kramer: I do not know. Nothing could be said about concentration camps in the outside world.[...]

Major Backhouse: Was the purpose of the gas chambers not a part of the determination of your Party to try and exterminate the Jewish race and all the intelligent people of Poland?

Josef Kramer: I do not know.[...]

. . . . . . . . . . . .

The tactics by which such retraction of uncoerced testimony was achieved and replaced by self-incriminating accounts is detailed here.

General Pohl was forced through torture to sign false and self-incriminating affidavits written by prosecution officials that were later used against him in his own trial.
As he recalled:
Whenever genuine documents did not correspond to what the prosecution authorities wanted or were insufficient for the guilty sentences they sought, "affidavits" were put together.
The most striking feature of these remarkable trial documents is that the accused often condemned themselves in them.
That is understandable only to those who have themselves experienced the technique by which such "affidavits" are obtained.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Cerdic
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Re: Birkenau: examining the currently accepted narrative

Post by Cerdic »

Friedrich “Fritz” Hartjenstein (...)
Then he was again tried by the British for hanging a POW who was a member of the Royal Air Force and sentenced to death by firing squad on June 5 of that year.
He was then extradited to France, where he was tried for his crimes at Natzweiler and sentenced to death.
He died of a heart attack while awaiting execution on October 20, 1954.
A correspondent points out the different extradition demands here - tried by the British and sentenced to death, then taken to France before his execution, tried for a crime on French soil and sentenced to death again. A trial for his Auschwitz period would mean extradition to Poland and presumably another death sentence.

What do you think this case suggests or proves, then?
Last edited by Cerdic on Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

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Re: Birkenau: examining the currently accepted narrative

Post by Cerdic »

Been There wrote:Don't think, don't question. Just feel the horror and believe the exaggeration and historically out-of-context, self-obsessed tale of personal suffering.
Forget that during WW2 there was a war going on.
Forget that in that war all parties deliberately interred people and used them as a labour force.
Forget that all sides in that war deliberately targeted and killed non-combatant civilians in their hundreds of thousands.
...Your point being?

Let me answer that. Nazi apologia, making the Birkenau extermination/labour-camp look less horrific than it was, and tu quoque against the Allied nations (two wrongs make a right, I guess)

That Birkenau was also a labour camp where people were interned, and that in this respect there are a few similarities with practices of other nations at the time. is not a matter of contention. The issue here that makes Auschwitz so famous is the mass extermination via gassings at the camp, which you deny.
How to explain a picture of her looking well-fed, well-clothed, clean, happy and smiling? Happily, healthily smiling in Birkenau,the infamous "epicentre of man's cruelty and horrendous, "sadistic" mass-murder??
This is revisionism: Auschwitz wasn't a brutal labour camp where innocent inmates were stolen from, underfed, tortured, enslaved, and generally mistreated, doubling as an extermination centre. It was a happy, smiley place with well-fed, well-dressed inmates who's internment was perfectly justified as Jews were a threat to Germany, and the only things killed in gas chambers were lice.
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

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Re: Birkenau: examining the currently accepted narrative

Post by Nessie »

been-there wrote:
theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:
Image

The woman holding the bucket is Linda Breder; she claimed she and her colleague were ordered to smile whilst this photo was taken. She also saw one of those chimney fires, you know, the ones that happened every day at Birkenau.
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Ausc ... php#page-3
A good example of the emotive, manipulative pseudo-history and exaggeration that the public are constantly confronted with by an industry of holocaust deceit.
Don't think, don't question.
I would encourage people to think for themselves and question.
been-there wrote:Just feel the horror and believe the exaggeration and historically out-of-context, self-obsessed tale of personal suffering.
Forget that during WW2 there was a war going on.
Forget that in that war all parties deliberately interred people and used them as a labour force.
Please evidence forced labour in British internment camps.
been-there wrote:Forget that all sides in that war deliberately targeted and killed non-combatant civilians in their hundreds of thousands.
Why? Recognition of civilian casualties and how unacceptable they are has resulted in the development of far more accurate weaponry than ever before.
been-there wrote:Forget this picture which is irrefutable photographic evidence of Linda Breder's actual experience of Aushwitz.
Just read her retro-active version of life in what has become the symbol of holocaust horror and IF you are a 'good' person, emote along with her:
There is no forgetting for Linda Breder,
From her home in San Francisco, Breder, 80, said with tears in her eyes,
"No matter what I do in my life, no matter how many years go by, I am never far from Auschwitz."
...She holds her head in her hands and cries as she remembers the crematory.
"It was burning day and night. The flames were so high.
Fat-ashes fell on the camp. We were always smeared ... our faces ..."

She cannot finish her sentence.
Image
How to explain a picture of her looking well-fed, well-clothed, clean, happy and smiling? Happily, healthily smiling in Birkenau,the infamous "epicentre of man's cruelty and horrendous, "sadistic" mass-murder??
Oh... an evil 'Nazi' forced her and the other woman to smile.

Just believe it.

Don't think.
Thats amazing! Well done at spotting no everyone in Birkenau suffered and was was treated in exactly the same way as everyone else. Did you know that was also the case in the other camps?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Birkenau: examining the currently accepted narrative

Post by Cerdic »

So Kramer originally said he didn't know anything about gas chambers, and then when confronted with evidence of his role in the gas chamber at Natzweiler, he admitted to their existence at both Natzweiler and Auschwitz.

BT's reaction is not to assume the most obvious, that Kramer was a liar (1st statement) and changed tactics when he was unveiled as one (2nd statement), but to charge his British captives with torturing or otherwise coercing him into saying gas chambers did exist, for which he has no evidence.
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

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Re: Birkenau: examining the currently accepted narrative

Post by been-there »

been-there wrote: Forget this picture which is irrefutable photographic evidence of Linda Breder's actual experience of Aushwitz-Birkenau
Just read her retro-active version of life in what has become the symbol of holocaust horror and IF you are a 'good' person, emote along with her:
Linda Breder said with tears in her eyes,
"No matter what I do in my life, no matter how many years go by, I am never far from Auschwitz."
...She holds her head in her hands and cries as she remembers the crematory.
"It was burning day and night. The flames were so high.
Fat-ashes fell on the camp. We were always smeared ... our faces ..."

She cannot finish her sentence.
Image
How to explain a picture of her looking well-fed, well-clothed, clean, happy and smiling? Happily, healthily smiling in Birkenau,the infamous "epicentre of man's cruelty and horrendous, "sadistic" mass-murder??
Oh... an evil 'Nazi' forced her and the other woman to smile.
Just believe it.
Don't think.
For the comprehension-challenged, true-believer: here is a remedy for any cognitive dissonance you might be experiencing from looking at the above photo.

Step 1.
Look at the photographic evidence above.

Step 2.
Now ask yourself if she looks as though her face or the other woman's is smeared with fat ash or not.
Got an answer in your mind yet?

Step 3.
When you have arrived at an answer hold onto it in your mind, and then compare it with this tearful, emotional, crying recollection:
"It [the crematory] was burning day and night. The flames were so high. Fat-ashes fell on the camp. We were always smeared ... our faces ..."

Step 4.
Consider which is more credible: a). the photographic evidence OR b). her recollection aged 80?

Step 5.
If you think version b). is more credible go back to step 1.

If you think version a). is more credible, proceed to step 6.

Step 6.
Now consider why a newspaper would print an article that defies historical accuracy and is complicit in a racist, anti-German distortion of reality seven decades AFTER the events?
___________

All the above steps require the application of critical thinking.
Try not to be swayed by emotions.
Try to temporarily suspend any previously held belief-systems.
Good luck.

P.S. Anyone know HOW Linda Breder came to own such a photo of herself taken in Birkenau?
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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