Did Fred Leuchter actually write this:--

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Re: Did Fred Leuchter actually write this:--

Post by Vesoz » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:42 am

I should imagine you are on ignore, but there are links above somewhere I noticed. Germar claims 3000 ppm should do it but that is 10 times the amount needed it would seem. This is like executing someone by putting 10 bullets in the head instead of just one. Hanging a person 10 times. Cutting of their head 10 times. Indeed shooting them first then hanging them. Seems Germar was using the US gassing model of concentration and not the potential one which is significantly less in the amount of product used.

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Re: Did Fred Leuchter actually write this:--

Post by Scott » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:38 am

Vesoz wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:42 am

I should imagine you [Frankie ?] are on ignore, but there are links above somewhere I noticed. Germar claims 3000 ppm should do it but that is 10 times the amount needed it would seem. This is like executing someone by putting 10 bullets in the head instead of just one. Hanging a person 10 times. Cutting of their head 10 times. Indeed shooting them first then hanging them. Seems Germar was using the US gassing model of concentration and not the potential one which is significantly less in the amount of product used.


Rudolf's argument here is essentially that in order to realize the accounts according to the lie-witness testimony, i.e., getting a mass-gassing to work in record time merely by pouring Zyklon-B insecticide into cold or room-temperature subterranean morgues, you would have to dump ten times more product than you needed for whatever dose you wanted because Zyklon-B releases HCN, its active ingredient, S-L-O-W-L-Y.

This was a feature of the Zyklon-B product's design to aid in the safety and practicality of the vermin fumigation process. It also takes some time for the HCN gas once liberated to propagate throughout the chamber to quickly kill everybody, so in theory that would require overdosing as well to get sufficient coverage in short order.

This is of course ABSURD--nobody would waste this much valuable product that is otherwise desperately needed for legitimate pest fumigation--so we know that the lie-witness testimony is bunk at best. We will call this massive overdosing the "Rube Goldberg method" of gassing the Jews. However, massive overdosing would be the only way to make this narrative work as the lie-witnesses claimed.

With respect to the U.S. execution gaschambers, their design criteria was to meet an objective to execute a death sentence "humanely" by generating a massive overdose (ca. 2500-3000 ppm) very rapidly using the "HCN and acid crockpot method" so that the prisoner is overcome and euthanized as rapidly as possible. It still might take 18 minutes for the condemned person's heart to stop beating, but these dosages do give us some baseline data. However, since most Liberals consider capital punishment to be inhumane under any circumstances, legal or not, some of the claims made regarding execution by lethal gas are moralistically value-laden and therefore questionable at best.

Under actual and practical fumigation circumstances, Zyklon-B is NOT EXPLOSIVE, according to the manufacturer handbooks and expert fumigators--nor is there any explosion danger in gaschamber executions as used in United States prisons. And this for the same reason that it is generally safe to cook with combustible gas in your home kitchen. Any explosion risk here is massively overblown by those who have marketed themselves as experts on "humane" and "safe" executions with lethal gas. Fred Leuchter also called himself an "Engineer," but this belied many technical flubs that simply should not have been made by any competent expert.

With the "KREISLAUF" method of hot air-gas circulation--the method used S-A-F-E-L-Y in wartime Germany to fumigate the clothing and goods of 25 million people during the last year of the war--a minimal dosage of Zyklon-B fumigation product is needed. Simply put, the dosage of HCN is driven from its inert carrier material by warm-air blown through the Zyklon-B granules, and the air and gas mixture is then circulated inside the gaschamber and flows freely for a minimal period of time for good measure of dosage and exposure at well below the lower explosion threshold of concentration--before the HCN gas and air mixture is finally exhausted harmlessly out to the atmosphere

This Kreislauf (circulation) method was the state-of-the-art in fumigation technology used before and during the war, and strikingly, it was used in many concentration camps. So the "Rube Goldberg" scenarios do not add up in any sense whatsoever.

But the Kreislauf (circulation) method has NEVER BEEN CLAIMED to have actually been used procedurally to gas people, legally or otherwise. This is a huge gaff on the part of the lie-witnesses and those who wished to push the narrative that Nazi Germany gassed the Jews in the first place.

If the homicidal gassing story were true, certainly the Germans would have used established modern procedures--like they were already using for fumigations elsewhere, including in their concentration camps--and certainly not resorting to bizarre and wasteful "Rube Goldberg" methods for no clear reason.

You start by assuming that the WHEEL will be made ROUND, according to well-developed technological practices. You don't claim that the wheel was made SQUARE just to custom-fit crazy lie-witness testimony about how technology is IMAGINED and not APPLIED.

Hoaxsterism is indeed a desperate and deluded business.

Hoaxster reasoning always resorts to trying to pound square pegs into round holes. The atrocity-propaganda narrative that we know today as the HolocaustTM, has become internalized into Liberal and Jewish MYTHOLOGY of Virtue-by-Victimization--and many dumb and crazy people honestly try to argue that this atrocity-rich mythology follows from facts instead of the reverse. This is nothing but a huge circular evidence problem of the worst sort.

And that, folks, is why we calls it Hoax.

No conspiracy-theory is needed here--not any more than Urban Legends need a conspiracy-theory for people to believe and even to promote them.

:-)

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historian – England

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Re: Did Fred Leuchter actually write this:--

Post by been-there » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:19 am

rollo the ganger wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:55 pm
NSDAP wrote:The question is, if mass gassing was intended why not do it properly.
The "question" is, how does the holocaust narrative say they did it. As Faurisson said, we can all speculate on ways it could have been done but that is not the issue here. It is how they CLAIM it was done.
Exactly.

This topic-thread does not help anyone get closer to understanding what actually occurred at Birkenau and Majdanek.
Its endless arguing about speculative, imagined scenarios that likely NEVER OCCURRED.
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Re: Did Fred Leuchter actually write this:--

Post by NSDAP » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:27 am

been-there wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:19 am
rollo the ganger wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:55 pm
NSDAP wrote:The question is, if mass gassing was intended why not do it properly.
The "question" is, how does the holocaust narrative say they did it. As Faurisson said, we can all speculate on ways it could have been done but that is not the issue here. It is how they CLAIM it was done.
Exactly.

This topic-thread does not help anyone get closer to understanding what actually occurred at Birkenau and Majdanek.
Its endless arguing about speculative, imagined scenarios that likely NEVER OCCURRED.
This is true. but if we were to do such a deed how would we go about it. The people then in Deutschland had the same intelligence as us now and in many ways pioneers of modern technology. It is inconceivable that an ad hoc method of mass murder would be used (unless it was a criminal gang) as a state system. By saying how we would do it and comparing the recorded documents of the past gives a comparison and a contrast. I am saying if we were commissioned to mass murder several million people we could do it very effectively, and using Zb, but preferably CO. Body disposal could be done very effectively. The only variable is that we were not there at that time with their resources or the political will: perhaps lack of money. Whatever, I am sure we could do a more effective job of mass murder than our grandfathers were accused of.
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Re: Did Fred Leuchter actually write this:--

Post by been-there » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:28 am

Scott wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:38 am

...Rudolf's argument here is essentially that in order to realize the accounts according to the lie-witness testimony, i.e., getting a mass-gassing to work in record time merely by pouring Zyklon-B insecticide into cold or room-temperature subterranean morgues, you would have to dump ten times more product than you needed for whatever dose you wanted because Zyklon-B releases HCN, its active ingredient, S-L-O-W-L-Y....

This is of course ABSURD — nobody would waste this much valuable product that is otherwise desperately needed for legitimate pest fumigation — so we know that the lie-witness testimony is bunk at best...

This Kreislauf (circulation) method was the state-of-the-art in fumigation technology used before and during the war, and strikingly, it was used in many concentration camps. So the "Rube Goldberg" scenarios do not add up in any sense whatsoever.

But the Kreislauf (circulation) method has NEVER BEEN CLAIMED to have actually been used procedurally to gas people, legally or otherwise. This is a huge gaff on the part of the lie-witnesses and those who wished to push the narrative that Nazi Germany gassed the Jews in the first place.

If the homicidal gassing story were true, certainly the Germans would have used established modern procedures--like they were already using for fumigations elsewhere, including in their concentration camps--and certainly not resorting to bizarre and wasteful "Rube Goldberg" methods for no clear reason.

You start by assuming that the WHEEL will be made ROUND, according to well-developed technological practices. You don't claim that the wheel was made SQUARE just to custom-fit crazy lie-witness testimony about how technology is IMAGINED and not APPLIED.

Hoaxsterism is indeed a desperate and deluded business.

Hoaxster reasoning always resorts to trying to pound square pegs into round holes. The atrocity-propaganda narrative that we know today as the HolocaustTM, has become internalized into Liberal and Jewish MYTHOLOGY of Virtue-by-Victimization — and many dumb and crazy people honestly try to argue that this atrocity-rich mythology follows from facts instead of the reverse. This is nothing but a huge circular evidence problem of the worst sort.

And that, folks, is why we calls it Hoax.

No conspiracy-theory is needed here — not any more than Urban Legends need a conspiracy-theory for people to believe and even to promote them.

:-)
Excellent summarisation.

The claimed 'explosivity' issue was a revisionist 'own-goal'.
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they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: Did Fred Leuchter actually write this:--

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:09 am

The Keyword is " K-r-e-i-s-l-a-u-f " and not "Kreislaff." I hope NSDAP is paying attention. If I keep laughing like this I will probably hurt myself.

FPBerg

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Re: Did Fred Leuchter actually write this:--

Post by NSDAP » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:46 am

Thank you Friedrich. My spelling is not always wrong all the time :)
NSDAP wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:29 am
With the Kreislauf circulation the chamber had a concentration of 9 gm-3 in about 40 min.
:D
Should be called Kreislaufanlage or gas circulation unit. pronounciation Kreislaufanlage
Can you source the original data please for the circulation and non circulation graphs were were talking about above.
Wenn wir die Flagge, die wir aus dem Nichts gerissen haben, nicht halten können, müssen Sie, meine Söhne und Töchter, greifendie Fahne in deiner Faust...Führer der NSDAP Adolf Hitler
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Re: Did Fred Leuchter actually write this:--

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:02 pm

To NSDAP, Kreislauf is explained in my 1986 essay: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p-73_Berg.html

The circulation graph and its source are included.

The subject is enormously important because thanks to many essays from German experts of that time, we can actually read their minds and safely conclude that they certainly would have used Kreislauf as well. For the Faurisson-Leuchter crowd, this just does NOT fit at all with their pseudo-technical fairytales.

While I have your attention, NSDAP--please reconsider your views about the color of CO and cyanide "FATAL" victims. Nessie is completely wrong on this subject, but, to his credit, he at least knows that the subject is enormously important and well worth his life mission to try to discredit the simple fact that the vast majority of "fatal" cases of CO and cyanide poisoning turn an intense RED at the time of death--and even earlier. Just ask some experienced paramedics, or pathologists, or even firemen before being taken in by Nessie's hoax. The simple truth about corpse color undermines the entire holocaust HOAX because it thoroughly discredits the "eyewitesses" who are, in fact, the real basis of nearly the entire holocaust HOAX! Without those "eyewitnesses," the hoaxers including Nessie have nothing!

The following may be useful as well: https://codoh.com/library/document/657/

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at: http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

There were NO “limited gassings!” There were NO homicidal Nazi Gassings at all!

http://www.nazigassings.com/Railroad.html
The REAL Mass Murderers were the Anglo-Americans and the Jews themselves!
Last edited by Friedrich Paul Berg on Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did Fred Leuchter actually write this:--

Post by Frankie » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:19 am

Of course as we can see below, HCN is a severe explosion risk. In spite of what Berg fantasizes, Faurisson is spot on correct.
Especially since Zyklon-B releases it's cyanide load S-L-O-W-L-Y, therefore huge amounts would have been necessary to gas 2000 Jews in minutes as alleged in the dumb & impossible holocaust story. The Germans would never have used such a costly & very dangerous substance ... if they wanted to gas millions of people.

And see this claim which further demolishes the nutty FPBerg nonsense:
1 cannister of Zyklon-B killed 100 Jews
So 2000 claimed per batch would have equaled at least 20 cannisters. YES, they do say that.:lol:
Extremely dangerous, so the Germans would have known it and not done it, IF they wanted to do it.

see:


Here's more proof that I speak of:

Observable facts do not lie.

Image

seemingly endless accidental HCN explosions:

https://www.google.com/search?ei=XR6gWv ... uMe_ily8bE

So then, the levels for alleged gassings would have been much, much higher than 5.6%, which is the suggested limit.
- To achieve the alleged '2000 killed per gassing' in large underground rooms / 'gas chambers' in mere minutes as the narrative claims, using the slow acting Zyklon-B, the amount of HCN necessary would have been enormous, thereby going way above 5.6%, thereby creating an enormous explosion risk, as Rudolf and I have repeatedly demonstrated.
- Then there's the alleged locations of the alleged 'gas chambers', directly below high heat, flaming cremation ovens. No one in their right mind would have used HCN under those conditions. Certainly not the risk averse Germans.
- BTW, there are no claims of 'Krieslauf "being used in these preposterous & alleged 'gas chambers'. The claim is that the Zyklon-B was dropped into ridiculous basket-like contraptions and the still air did the job.
see:
I suggest everyone actually read The Rudolf Report:
http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/index.html
and:
'Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz"
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111

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Re: Did Fred Leuchter actually write this:--

Post by NSDAP » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:48 am

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:02 pm
To NSDAP, Kreislauf is explained in my 1986 essay: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p-73_Berg.html

The circulation graph and its source are included.

The subject is enormously important because thanks to many essays from German experts of that time, we can actually read their minds and safely conclude that they certainly would have used Kreislauf as well. For the Faurisson-Leuchter crowd, this just does NOT fit at all with their pseudo-technical fairytales.

While I have your attention, NSDAP--please reconsider your views about the color of CO and cyanide "FATAL" victims. Nessie is completely wrong on this subject, but, to his credit, he at least knows that the subject is enormously important and well worth his life mission to try to discredit the simple fact that the vast majority of "fatal" cases of CO and cyanide poisoning turn an intense RED at the time of death--and even earlier. Just ask some experienced paramedics, or pathologists, or even firemen before being taken in by Nessie's hoax. The simple truth about corpse color undermines the entire holocaust HOAX because it thoroughly discredits the "eyewitesses" who are, in fact, the real basis of nearly the entire holocaust HOAX! Without those "eyewitnesses," the hoaxers including Nessie have nothing!

The following may be useful as well: https://codoh.com/library/document/657/

FPBerg
Thank you enormously Friedrich. I will have my work cut out tomorrow perusing that material. I am well aware of the bright red colour of most of the victims of cyanide and carbon monoxide poisoning. This should have been a prominent feature at the Nuremberg trials, if either CO or HCN had been used. A good proportion of the alleged victims would have gone a cherry red. Certainly not all victims go this colour as in someways individual differences of variability can preclude this. I forgot which post I had the data in but only one eye witness out of many reported a supposed gas victim being red, most said they were bluish, black which indicates another death apart from the above mentioned gases. If those witnesses were not lying they were perhaps seeing victims of typhus or some other horrible death, but it was not from CO or HCN; if they had seen deaths by those gases that would have been a prominent statement in the Nuremburg trials but only one eye witness claimed they saw a red body.
Image
Image
Cyanide Poisoning
Both of these poisonous gases are different chemically but basically work in a similar manner by asphyxiating the victim. Both chemicals stop the oxygen from getting to the cells. In the case of CO, the haemoglobin in the blood joins more readily with the carbon monoxide (210 x) to form carboxy haemoglobin (HcBO) and then transported around the body: sadly no oxygen is released to the cells. The amount of CO to cause death in a very short period of time is significantly higher than Hydrogen Cyanide. 12,800 ppm (1.28%) will cause death in about 2 mins. Cyanide poisons by Histotoxic hypoxia (also called histoxic hypoxia) which is the inability of cells to take up or use oxygen from the bloodstream, despite physiologically normal delivery of oxygen to such cells and tissues. The mechanism is different to CO, but either way people are asphyxiated through no oxygen getting to their body cells: cell failure is rapid when this happens.
Wenn wir die Flagge, die wir aus dem Nichts gerissen haben, nicht halten können, müssen Sie, meine Söhne und Töchter, greifendie Fahne in deiner Faust...Führer der NSDAP Adolf Hitler
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