Cole (Again) on Treblinka and the "Reinhardt" Camps

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been-there
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Re: Cole (Again) on Treblinka and the "Reinhardt" Camps

Post by been-there »

Nessie wrote:
been-there wrote:...Why was Adolf so allegedly honest and keen to inform EVERYONE in 1939 about his alleged intentions without USE OF euphemism, but so coy about it to his closest associates, top commanders and key personnel in 1944? It makes no sense.
Only people who are dishonestly stuck in a self-delusion will keep up the charade of believing this pernicious and racistly defamatory nonsense once this is pointed out to them.
It makes sense if you know about the historical narrative of the development of the Holocaust. So in 1939 when Hitler was talking about the Jews, the words used were in the context of the plan of ethnic cleansing. By 1944 that plan had changed to become genocide and so they had to be more careful about what they said. It is one thing to call for the elimination of Jews, for them to be still alive and in new communities elsewhere. It is another to call for their elimination and mass murder them.
This is an example of a stupid, circular reasoning and a self-referential, fallacious argument, known as 'begging the question' or in Latin 'petitio principii'.

There IS ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that Adolf DID call for their elimination and mass murder!
On the contrary. There is evidence that he didn't want to be bothered with the problem of their 'elimination' until AFTER the war was over.

Holy moly!
The ignorance, denial and self-delusion of the people arguing at RODOH for the accepted mythology is quite astounding.
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Re: Cole (Again) on Treblinka and the "Reinhardt" Camps

Post by DasPrussian »

There IS ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that Adolf DID call for their elimination and mass murder!


Yes there is. Eichmann informed us during his interrogation.

But you appear to be counterclaiming this inconvenient fact by telling us about him crying to a chaplain. Which doesn't prove anything. As I've explained in my last post.
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Re: Cole (Again) on Treblinka and the "Reinhardt" Camps

Post by been-there »

DasPrussian wrote:
There IS ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that Adolf DID call for their elimination and mass murder!
Yes there is. Eichmann informed us during his interrogation.
But you appear to be counterclaiming this inconvenient fact by telling us about him crying to a chaplain. Which doesn't prove anything. As I've explained in my last post.
OK, anecdotal evidence given 20 years after the admitted second-hand information was allegedly conveyed.
Armies don't work like that. Certainly not in war-time. Orders of such importance and far-reaching practical and criminal consequences need to be conveyed with written authority.

What someone says in their last moments on earth while awaiting execution, when they have NOTHING to lose by telling the truth, is obviously of more weight than what is said in a show trial where what was said was calculated to possibly lead to life or death, by coerced submission.

And the fact that you falsely represent this as him "crying to a chaplain" is yet more evidence that you are not familiar with facts, and are distorting evidence to make it fit a delusional belief system.
The chaplain and the chaplain's wife were more "crying" to him, trying to get him to confess his alleged crimes and repent while there was still time for redemption before his death.
... At one point in the conversation, Ms. Hull implored Eichmann, “You are blind and won't let God show you. I am here in the place of your wife and you are so full of pride ...
-- Pastor William. L. Hull,
'Struggle for a Soul: The untold story of a Minister's final effort to convert Adolf Eichmann'
I.e yet more evidence of who are really in denial here.
Last edited by been-there on Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cole (Again) on Treblinka and the "Reinhardt" Camps

Post by Nessie »

been-there wrote:........This is an example of a stupid, circular reasoning and a self-referential, fallacious argument, known as 'begging the question' or in Latin 'petitio principii'.
You said "It makes no sense." and I pointed out it does make sense if you know about the narrative of changing policy. Are you aware there has been a debate between historians as to how planned the Holocaust was?

http://www.academia.edu/7744846/Was_the ... -meditated

"Was the Holocaust intended from the outset or was it the result of 'cumulative radicalisation'?"

That is not begging the question, it is looking at the alternatives and then based on the evidence making a decision as to which one is correct. I think that the policy developed during WWII from ethnic cleansing to genocide. The plan was in the east, but they were now fighting the Soviet Union and then came the defeats, which meant they had no where to re-settle the Jews.
been-there wrote:There IS ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that Adolf DID call for their elimination and mass murder!
On the contrary. There is evidence that he didn't want to be bothered with the problem of their 'elimination' until AFTER the war was over.

Holy moly!
The ignorance, denial and self-delusion of the people arguing at RODOH for the accepted mythology is quite astounding.
He did say that he wanted to sort the problem after the war, but that was when he thought the Nazis would rule over massive parts of the Soviet Union and had places to re-settle Jews to. But his plans did not well and so they evolved.

We have lots of evidence of Hitler and the Nazis hating the Jews and wanting rid of Europe of them. We also have Hitler being prepared to sign off on killing those who were not regarded as fit for an Aryan Fatherland with the T4 euthanasia order.

In your response you used the fallacies of argument by assertion, cherry picking and poisoning of the well. You also showed that you do not recognise the fallacy of begging the question, nor do you understand it.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Cole (Again) on Treblinka and the "Reinhardt" Camps

Post by DasPrussian »

been-there wrote:
DasPrussian wrote:
There IS ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that Adolf DID call for their elimination and mass murder!
Yes there is. Eichmann informed us during his interrogation.
But you appear to be counterclaiming this inconvenient fact by telling us about him crying to a chaplain. Which doesn't prove anything. As I've explained in my last post.
OK, anecdotal evidence given 20 years after the admitted second-hand information was allegedly conveyed.
Armies don't work like that. Certainly not in war-time. Orders of such importance and far-reaching practical and criminal consequences need to be conveyed with written authority.

What someone says in their last moments on earth while awaiting execution, when they have NOTHING to lose by telling the truth, is obviously of more weight than what is said in a show trial where what was said was calculated to possibly lead to life or death, by coerced submission.

And the fact that you falsely represent this as him "crying to a chaplain" is yet more evidence that you are not familiar with facts, and are distorting evidence to make it fit a delusional belief system.
The chaplain and the chaplain's wife were more "crying" to him, trying to get him to confess his alleged crimes and repent while there was still time for redemption before his death.
... At one point in the conversation, Ms. Hull implored Eichmann, “You are blind and won't let God show you. I am here in the place of your wife and you are so full of pride ...
-- Pastor William. L. Hull,
'Struggle for a Soul: The untold story of a Minister's final effort to convert Adolf Eichmann'
I.e yet more evidence of who are really in denial here.

This isn't no ordinary army though is it ? Its the SS and the Gestapo, a sinister organisation who's specialised subject was to inflict terror and death to innocent civilians because they believed them to be sub-human.

And what has the 20 years got to do with anything? Are you saying everything Eichmann claimed was incorrect, due to memory loss ?? Well how come it ties in with the SS witness testimony from the 1960's trials then? ie Death was being dealt at the AR camps.

It appears you will only accept a written order as evidence. What a ridiculous stance you have adopted here. Basically what you are saying is that any one in authority can now get away with murder if a written signed order can't be found, yeah? So straight away you're ruling out the possibility of destroying a document, or giving a verbal order. Are them two actions impossible to carry out then ? Interesting !

And as ive said, Eichmann had every right not to 'confess his crime' to the chaplain, as you could argue he wasn't fully responsible for the deaths. he just laid on the trains. The only 'crime' he committed was to go ahead with being a cog in the Nazi genocidal wheel so he probably thought God would understand his plight and let him off , so no need to confess anything. ( I don't even know how religious he was, in which case, why would he feel the need to 'confess' and plead forgiveness from someone who doesn't even exist ie God !!! )

Why don't you answer my questions about these top Nazis not knowing anything about Siberia ? You quote them not knowing anything about genocide and that seems to satisfy you there was no genocide. So adopting your logic if they didn't know anything about Siberia then Siberia didn't happen, did it ?
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Re: Cole (Again) on Treblinka and the "Reinhardt" Camps

Post by been-there »

There IS ABSOLUTELY NO empirical or documentary EVIDENCE that Adolf DID call for their elimination and mass murder!
Only, anecdotal evidence given 20 years after the alleged communication, claimed in a trial defence strategy of "only following orders", that second-hand information regarding an alleged verbal order was allegedly conveyed.
Armies don't work like that. Certainly not in war-time. Orders of such importance and far-reaching practical and criminal consequences need to be conveyed with written authority.

What someone says in their last moments on earth while awaiting execution, when they have NOTHING to lose by telling the truth, is obviously of more weight than what is said in a show trial where what was said was calculated to possibly lead to life or death, by coerced submission.
DasPrussian wrote:This isn't no ordinary army though is it ? Its the SS and the Gestapo, a sinister organisation who's specialised subject was to inflict terror and death to innocent civilians because they believed them to be sub-human.
Ha ha. Holy moly!! :lol:
Let's see if I am getting this right.
You are arguing for the 'truth' and historical accuracy of the disputed allegation that Adolf personally ordered a systematic murder of ALL 'Jews' in Europe allegedly deemed as sub-human by Adolf and his cohorts? And you are arguing that there was no need for any proof of a documentary order from anyone to anyone else about it, nor any documentary sealed proof that this order had the highest NSDAP authorisation, by appealing to a racist, simplistic, propaganda caricature that portrays the SS as a more sinister organisation (who specialised in inflicting terror and death to innocent civilians because they believed them to be sub-human), than our own special military units were??!! :lol:
Hmmmm?

In other words you are arguing: 'We know the SS didn't need written authority to mass-murder millions of civilian non-combatants, because they were the SS and we know what they did, right? They mass-murdered millions of civilian non-combatants, didn't they.'
You really don't see how circular and self-referential that reasoning is? :o

And how do we 'know' that?
We know it by being subjected to and by watching Schindler's list , Hogan's heroes and all the other hollywood propaganda, perhaps?
:roll:

The Russian, British and American military killed millions of elderly, women and children because they were deemed 'sub-human'. Didn't you know that?

That's what the military does to people. It teaches them to obey authority figures and kill innocents belonging to the 'enemy' because the enemy are 'evil'.
That is what American soldiers have been doing recently in Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, Fallujah. That is exactly what international 'Jewish' IDF militias have been doing in Gaza and the West Bank for decades.

You yourself have just demonstrated that you have generalised ALL people who served in the SS or the Gestapo as sinister 'sub-humans'.

Face it. You have been indoctrinated.
We ALL have.
Time to come out of that now.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: Cole (Again) on Treblinka and the "Reinhardt" Camps

Post by Nessie »

First you claim
been-there wrote:......There IS ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that Adolf DID call for their elimination and mass murder!.....
Then you are challenged about all the eye witness reports that Hitler did know about and approve of the genocide of the Jews, but you try to dismiss it as anecdotal evidence.
been-there wrote:....OK, anecdotal evidence given 20 years after the admitted second-hand information was allegedly conveyed.....


We have multiple people in different places and times reporting what they themselves heard Hitler say from Frank, Goebbels, Himmler, Eichmann, Höss, Heydrich and the Grand Mufti. That is strong corroborative evidence he did know of and wanted the destruction of the Jews.
been-there wrote:......There IS ABSOLUTELY NO empirical or documentary EVIDENCE that Adolf DID call for their elimination and mass murder!.....
You have ignored I pointed out there is a written order for mass killing of those who did not fit the Nazis scheme with T4. That is good evidence he was prepared to kill to get his pure Aryan Fatherland. Then there was the formation of the Einsatzgruppen specifically for routing out undesirables. Then there are the OKW orders about the Jews

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes ... sh_actions

"In Order No. 24 dated November 24, 1941, the commander of the 707th division declared: 5. Jews and Gypsies:...As already has been ordered, the Jews have to vanish from the flat country and the Gypsies have to be annihilated too. The carrying out of larger Jewish actions is not the task of the divisional units. They are carried out by civilian or police authorities, if necessary ordered by the commandant of White Ruthenia, if he has special units at his disposal, or for security reasons and in the case of collective punishments. When smaller or larger groups of Jews are met in the flat country, they can be liquidated by divisional units or be massed in the ghettos near bigger villages designated for that purpose, where they can be handed over to the civilian authority or the SD."

You are going to have to add further exceptions to your claims that there is no evidence.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Cole (Again) on Treblinka and the "Reinhardt" Camps

Post by Werd »

"they can be liquidated by divisional units or be massed in the ghettos near bigger villages designated for that purpose, where they can be handed over to the civilian authority or the SD.""

This is interesting. It seems that there is a free choice to make as opposed to mandatory deportation to so called gas chambers in the Aktion Reinhardt camps.

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Re: Cole (Again) on Treblinka and the "Reinhardt" Camps

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:"they can be liquidated by divisional units or be massed in the ghettos near bigger villages designated for that purpose, where they can be handed over to the civilian authority or the SD.""

This is interesting. It seems that there is a free choice to make as opposed to mandatory deportation to so called gas chambers in the Aktion Reinhardt camps.
The order is from the very start of AR and at that time no camps had been opened.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Cole (Again) on Treblinka and the "Reinhardt" Camps

Post by blake121666 »

It looks like Jansson has analyzed Cole's Holy Innocents' Cemetery claims at:

https://holocausthistorychannel.wordpre ... stupidity/

He's found out that it only held thousands of corpses at any one time.

I haven't looked at his site in a long time. His latest is pretty good:

https://holocausthistorychannel.wordpre ... -chambers/

He points out some more times where Nick Terry apparently didn't read or understand his sources. Charles Traynor would probably be interested to read this.

It looks like he's having a lot of fun with Roberto lately throughout his site. Look at this one!

https://holocausthistorychannel.wordpre ... rror-farm/
Muehlenkamp’s claim of an average weight of 125 kg for sheep has to take its place (along with his famous “shitty argument”, which suggested that Jews would be easy to cremate because decomposing shit releases lots of methane) in the dumbest-arguments hall of fame.
:lol:

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