GPR at TII

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Nessie
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GPR at TII

Post by Nessie »

There have been two surveys using ground penetrating radar at TII.

1999 Richard Krege -

http://barnesreview.org/wp/archives/280

"One of the many images received by the Australians over the former graves of Treblinka is given here. The Australians have also probed the ground of other sections of the camp where it is known that the soil is undisturbed and basically without disruptions. A comparison reveals that the radar images taken everywhere in the camp show an almost perfect soil untouched by humans. Everywhere the horizons are virtually uniform and uninterrupted. This picture shows a survey done across 12 meters to a depth of 6 meters.

"Using the official plans of mass graves, the Australians worked for three weeks. They surveyed the camp territory with the GPR device from east to west and from north to south and even between the stones and monuments erected after the war. In addition the AUGER drill unit was used at regular intervals to take soil samples. To be absolutely certain, the team members also repeated the process outside the limits of the camp.

Samples of trees were also taken nearby to determine their age. Results
Found: Almost all of the ground consists of undisturbed soil, sand and rocks. The trees are over 50 years old.
Not found: Individual or mass graves, fragments of skeletons, human ashes, wood ashes, ground irregularities, construction compounds or remnants, remains of trees or stumps, cavities, golden teeth."


2010 Caroline Sturdy-Colls -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16657363

"This revealed the existence of a number of pits across the site.......Some may be the result of post-war looting, prompted by myths of buried Jewish gold, but several larger pits were recorded in areas suggested by witnesses as the locations of mass graves and cremation sites. One is 26m long, 17m wide and at least four metres deep, with a ramp at the west end and a vertical edge to the east. Another five pits of varying sizes and also at least this deep are located nearby. Given their size and location, there is a strong case for arguing that they represent burial areas.......As well as the pits, the survey has located features that appear to be structural, and two of these are likely to be the remains of the gas chambers."



So one survey of the whole area states no where has the ground been disturbed and to be as nature caused it to be. The other survey, which did not cover the whole area has found the ground to have been disturbed such that there has been man made intervention. Which one is correct?

I would say that the second survey is accurate. The reason why is the evidence of digs at the site of TII in 1945 and in 2013. They have found a layer of sand, human remains in various states from still decomposing (in 1945) to crushed bones to ash and artefacts including personal items like hair grips, rubble and tiles.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

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Turnagain
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Re: GPR at TII

Post by Turnagain »

Why is CS-C any more reliable than Krege? Has either one made their certified data available for third party analysis? Why is no investigation allowed with outside observers and verification of GPR results? Your claim that CS-C is more credible than Krege is specious bullshit. Until there is verifiable data made available to third party observers and analysts, all such claims amount to nothing more than a personal opinion.

That the M&H model MB dragline couldn't, by itself, excavate and stockpile the ex from such pits is a fact. My claim that since the giant graves couldn't have been accomplished by the dragline alone and therefore don't exist is my OPINION. CS-C claims to have found some "mass graves" but even using the most generous of calculations provides only a fraction of the volume of an excavation that would be necessary to contain as many as 700,000 bodies. Your claim that such giant excavations simply disappeared is either the product of an irrational mind or an outright lie. The fact that neither Krege or CS-C found any evidence of even one of Wiernik's 12,500 cubic meter graves serves as evidence that my thesis that the graves don't and never did exist is correct. The FACT that CS-C found none of the graves of the correct dimensions serves as evidence that what she did find was a refuse pit.

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Re: GPR at TII

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Turnagain wrote:Why is CS-C any more reliable than Krege? Has either one made their certified data available for third party analysis? Why is no investigation allowed with outside observers and verification of GPR results? Your claim that CS-C is more credible than Krege is specious bullshit. Until there is verifiable data made available to third party observers and analysts, all such claims amount to nothing more than a personal opinion.


C S-C GPR results are more credible than Krege because of the physical evidence showing disturbances in the ground, from photos where people dug for gold, photos where remains are found and the digs that found various artefacts. Plus finding bones on the surface after rain shows there are more below the surface.

If no dig had found anything at all and the ground was as you would expect from nature, the Krege's results would be the more accurate. That is going with the science, not personal opinion.
Turnagain wrote:That the M&H model MB dragline couldn't, by itself, excavate and stockpile the ex from such pits is a fact. My claim that since the giant graves couldn't have been accomplished by the dragline alone and therefore don't exist is my OPINION.
That the drag line could not make the graves by itself is possibly correct, as a matter of fact. Your conclusion, that in your opinion the graves do not exist is a non sequitur. You are ignoring that with slave labourers and a dragline pits can be dug and filled in again to all sorts of sizes.
Turnagain wrote: CS-C claims to have found some "mass graves" but even using the most generous of calculations provides only a fraction of the volume of an excavation that would be necessary to contain as many as 700,000 bodies. Your claim that such giant excavations simply disappeared is either the product of an irrational mind or an outright lie. The fact that neither Krege or CS-C found any evidence of even one of Wiernik's 12,500 cubic meter graves serves as evidence that my thesis that the graves don't and never did exist is correct. The FACT that CS-C found none of the graves of the correct dimensions serves as evidence that what she did find was a refuse pit.
Again that is a non sequitur, that graves have not been found now as per Wiernik's description does not mean no graves cannot have ever existed.

Fact is C S-C has found 10 pits including one that is 26m x 17m x least four metres deep, with a ramp at one end and a vertical edge at the other. She has found artefacts at different points about the camp, from on the surface with bones, to where the SS had their barracks, to under the ground and bricks and tiles. Your claim about a refuse pit is ignoring the science.

With all that evidence scattered about the site, one wonders what Krege actually did with his GPR. He did not even find your alleged refuse pit.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Turnagain
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Re: GPR at TII

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
Turnagain wrote:Why is CS-C any more reliable than Krege? Has either one made their certified data available for third party analysis? Why is no investigation allowed with outside observers and verification of GPR results? Your claim that CS-C is more credible than Krege is specious bullshit. Until there is verifiable data made available to third party observers and analysts, all such claims amount to nothing more than a personal opinion.


C S-C GPR results are more credible than Krege because of the physical evidence showing disturbances in the ground, from photos where people dug for gold, photos where remains are found and the digs that found various artefacts. Plus finding bones on the surface after rain shows there are more below the surface.

If no dig had found anything at all and the ground was as you would expect from nature, the Krege's results would be the more accurate. That is going with the science, not personal opinion.
Turnagain wrote:That the M&H model MB dragline couldn't, by itself, excavate and stockpile the ex from such pits is a fact. My claim that since the giant graves couldn't have been accomplished by the dragline alone and therefore don't exist is my OPINION.
That the drag line could not make the graves by itself is possibly correct, as a matter of fact. Your conclusion, that in your opinion the graves do not exist is a non sequitur. You are ignoring that with slave labourers and a dragline pits can be dug and filled in again to all sorts of sizes.
Turnagain wrote: CS-C claims to have found some "mass graves" but even using the most generous of calculations provides only a fraction of the volume of an excavation that would be necessary to contain as many as 700,000 bodies. Your claim that such giant excavations simply disappeared is either the product of an irrational mind or an outright lie. The fact that neither Krege or CS-C found any evidence of even one of Wiernik's 12,500 cubic meter graves serves as evidence that my thesis that the graves don't and never did exist is correct. The FACT that CS-C found none of the graves of the correct dimensions serves as evidence that what she did find was a refuse pit.
Again that is a non sequitur, that graves have not been found now as per Wiernik's description does not mean no graves cannot have ever existed.

Fact is C S-C has found 10 pits including one that is 26m x 17m x least four metres deep, with a ramp at one end and a vertical edge at the other. She has found artefacts at different points about the camp, from on the surface with bones, to where the SS had their barracks, to under the ground and bricks and tiles. Your claim about a refuse pit is ignoring the science.

With all that evidence scattered about the site, one wonders what Krege actually did with his GPR. He did not even find your alleged refuse pit.
Sure, and CS-C found some bones in a cemetery and declared that proof that a million people were murdered with CO and burned to nothing but smoke and ashes. Uh-huh, now that's real credibility for you. Has she offered her GPR printouts of the site for examination? If not, why not? Did she "find" her pit like she "found" her bones? CS-C emoting over an unmarked grave in a cemetery isn't science. It doesn't even qualify as junk science. That's just theater and poor theater at that. Note that Krege wasn't allowed to excavate. Note also that the top layers of soil shown in Krege's GPR printout is a different pattern than the uniform pattern shown below the near surface patterns. What both Krege and CS-C DIDN'T find was a mass grave big enough to hold even one tenth of bodies as claimed by you hoaxers.

As far as the graves ever existing I say no. The dragline couldn't have done it alone and Wiernik makes no mention of laborers helping to dig the graves. He records in detail the work he and other prisoners are force to do and he makes no mention of work crews helping to dig the graves. Now here you are trying to change the official narrative because the official holyhoax story has once again proven impossible.

"...graves cannot have ever existed." Again, you try for a sly lie. Again, you get called on it. If the graves as described by Wiernik ever existed then they still exist and are as visible to GPR as are clouds in the sky to the human eye. The graves, given the area necessary for the stockpiles, would have taken up an area of at least 4-5 acres yet CS-C found no trace of such pits. Her refuse pit was "3 and perhaps as much as 4 meters deep in places." Even if the refuse pit was a perfect rectangle with a uniform depth of 4 meters that is only about 1,700 cubic meters. If the volume of her other pits were to triple that volume there would still only be about 5,100 cubic meters available to bury at least 500,000 bodies. That's 98 cadavers per cubic meter. That's also total bullshit. You can't fit 98 people into one (1) cubic meter. Until CS-C or someone can prove the existence of graves of sufficient volume to contain at least 500,000 cadavers the discovery of broken tiles and other such detritus represents nothing but junk.

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Re: GPR at TII

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:.....
Sure, and CS-C found some bones in a cemetery and declared that proof that a million people were murdered with CO and burned to nothing but smoke and ashes.
Lie
Turnagain wrote: Uh-huh, now that's real credibility for you. Has she offered her GPR printouts of the site for examination? If not, why not? Did she "find" her pit like she "found" her bones? CS-C emoting over an unmarked grave in a cemetery isn't science. It doesn't even qualify as junk science. That's just theater and poor theater at that.
You are conflating a TV documentary with the scientific reports being released.

Turnagain wrote: Note that Krege wasn't allowed to excavate. Note also that the top layers of soil shown in Krege's GPR printout is a different pattern than the uniform pattern shown below the near surface patterns. What both Krege and CS-C DIDN'T find was a mass grave big enough to hold even one tenth of bodies as claimed by you hoaxers.

As far as the graves ever existing I say no. The dragline couldn't have done it alone and Wiernik makes no mention of laborers helping to dig the graves. He records in detail the work he and other prisoners are force to do and he makes no mention of work crews helping to dig the graves. Now here you are trying to change the official narrative because the official holyhoax story has once again proven impossible.
Is it the official narrative that labourers were not used to help dig the mass graves? You keep making the fallacious claim that if Wiernik did not mention it, it therefore did not happen. So, since he mentions, a lot that there were homicidal gas chambers, you accept they did happen?
Turnagain wrote:"...graves cannot have ever existed." Again, you try for a sly lie. Again, you get called on it. If the graves as described by Wiernik ever existed then they still exist and are as visible to GPR as are clouds in the sky to the human eye. The graves, given the area necessary for the stockpiles, would have taken up an area of at least 4-5 acres yet CS-C found no trace of such pits. Her refuse pit was "3 and perhaps as much as 4 meters deep in places." Even if the refuse pit was a perfect rectangle with a uniform depth of 4 meters that is only about 1,700 cubic meters. If the volume of her other pits were to triple that volume there would still only be about 5,100 cubic meters available to bury at least 500,000 bodies. That's 98 cadavers per cubic meter. That's also total bullshit. You can't fit 98 people into one (1) cubic meter. Until CS-C or someone can prove the existence of graves of sufficient volume to contain at least 500,000 cadavers the discovery of broken tiles and other such detritus represents nothing but junk.
Yes I am sure there are still some traces. Odd how Krege found nothing, yet C S-C found ground disturbances backed up by digs.

How many people, burnt to ash can you fit into 1 cubic metre? The bodies are now ash and crushed bone. When the pits were full and Himmler wanted a cover up, bodies were cremated and crushed. That is how so many were fitted into a small area.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: GPR at TII

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
Turnagain wrote:.....
Sure, and CS-C found some bones in a cemetery and declared that proof that a million people were murdered with CO and burned to nothing but smoke and ashes.
Lie


Nope, no lie. I was sittin' right here in front of my computer and I seen it on the screen. She went over to the local cemetery and put up a little green open sided tent and dug up some bones. Then she and some dude latched together and sniveled and snotted about all the poor gassed Jews for quite a while. Yep, seen the whole thing, right here on my computer screen.
Turnagain wrote: Uh-huh, now that's real credibility for you. Has she offered her GPR printouts of the site for examination? If not, why not? Did she "find" her pit like she "found" her bones? CS-C emoting over an unmarked grave in a cemetery isn't science. It doesn't even qualify as junk science. That's just theater and poor theater at that.
You are conflating a TV documentary with the scientific reports being released.
So, I shouldn't believe the documentary because it's propaganda? I thought that might be the case.

Turnagain wrote: Note that Krege wasn't allowed to excavate. Note also that the top layers of soil shown in Krege's GPR printout is a different pattern than the uniform pattern shown below the near surface patterns. What both Krege and CS-C DIDN'T find was a mass grave big enough to hold even one tenth of bodies as claimed by you hoaxers.

As far as the graves ever existing I say no. The dragline couldn't have done it alone and Wiernik makes no mention of laborers helping to dig the graves. He records in detail the work he and other prisoners are force to do and he makes no mention of work crews helping to dig the graves. Now here you are trying to change the official narrative because the official holyhoax story has once again proven impossible.
Is it the official narrative that labourers were not used to help dig the mass graves? You keep making the fallacious claim that if Wiernik did not mention it, it therefore did not happen. So, since he mentions, a lot that there were homicidal gas chambers, you accept they did happen?
LOL. No, actually I accept that it's all bullshit and I point out the contradictions and impossibilities to prove it. So, where's those 10 meter deep graves, Nessie? If the prisoners "helped" to dig the graves, what did they do? Carry the ex away in their hats? Baskets? Wheelbarrows? What did they do, Nessie?
Turnagain wrote:"...graves cannot have ever existed." Again, you try for a sly lie. Again, you get called on it. If the graves as described by Wiernik ever existed then they still exist and are as visible to GPR as are clouds in the sky to the human eye. The graves, given the area necessary for the stockpiles, would have taken up an area of at least 4-5 acres yet CS-C found no trace of such pits. Her refuse pit was "3 and perhaps as much as 4 meters deep in places." Even if the refuse pit was a perfect rectangle with a uniform depth of 4 meters that is only about 1,700 cubic meters. If the volume of her other pits were to triple that volume there would still only be about 5,100 cubic meters available to bury at least 500,000 bodies. That's 98 cadavers per cubic meter. That's also total bullshit. You can't fit 98 people into one (1) cubic meter. Until CS-C or someone can prove the existence of graves of sufficient volume to contain at least 500,000 cadavers the discovery of broken tiles and other such detritus represents nothing but junk.
Yes I am sure there are still some traces. Odd how Krege found nothing, yet C S-C found ground disturbances backed up by digs.

How many people, burnt to ash can you fit into 1 cubic metre? The bodies are now ash and crushed bone. When the pits were full and Himmler wanted a cover up, bodies were cremated and crushed. That is how so many were fitted into a small area.
"Yes, I am sure there are still some traces." Uh-uh, that lie don't fly, Nessie. Those massive excavations would be as readily obvious to GPR now as they would have been in 1945 had GPR been available then. CS-C's little refuse pit doesn't even come close to the size of the alleged mass graves.

Mmmmmkay, let's take it from the top one more time. According to the official story, Treblinka operations began on 21 July, 1942. Jews were gassed with CO and their bodies sailed a la frisbees into the giant mass graves. That procedure continued until early in March, 1943 and ~ 500,000 Jews had been disposed of in the mass graves. Some claim that it was as many as 700,000 were first gassed and buried. Then Himmler ordered that all gassed Jews had to be cremated straight away after being gassed and all the bodies in the mass graves were to be dug up and cremated at the same time. The most often repeated story of what happened to the cremains is that they were simply thrown back into one or more of the mass graves. Treblinka operations ceased on 22 August, 1943.

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Re: GPR at TII

Post by neugierig »

The digging of the huge graves, 50mx25mx10m as per Wiernik, and how it was supposedly done is one of the ‘fantastic’ parts of this story, but Turnagain has that covered.

A few side issues: We are told that from July 22 to October 3,1940, 310,000 Jews were transported to Treblinka. And since we are ordered to believe that all of them were murdered, at least one of the graves must have been dug already by July 22. Who did it? The machines could not have, where did the slave labor come from, where were they housed, how long did it take?

Also, only one shower-room, pardon, gas chamber existed at that time. Wiernik tells us that construction of the ten new ones started at around the end of August, lasting 5 weeks (chapter 4; 7). So, almost half of the total were allegedly killed in one chamber, why build more?

Only a True Believer can Believe this.

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Re: GPR at TII

Post by Lewishjiars »

The Krege study is very interesting in that it is absolutely unambiguous in its findings. Engineer Krege published preliminary results promising more extensive evidence that, not only was there no evidence of mass grave volume of sufficient magnitude to contain 700,000 corpses, there was no evidence of even a single grave or corpse. Krege suggested that Treblinka was a pristine example of rural Poland.
http://barnesreview.org/wp/archives/280
Subsequently, Krege enjoyed a brief period of celebrity among thoughtful, open-minded individuals, and then quite suddenly, he disappeared. His promised, detailed study never became available, and the market on Treblinka forensics was surrendered to the establishment hired propagandist, Dr C S-C.

It is my suspicion that Richard Krege, like all critical witnesses in the evolving Holo-tale, was subjected to nefarious pressures.

It would certainly be quite bizarre for a man to make such bold claims as Krege if he could not back them up. Why would anyone do such a thing that would guarantee humiliation and ruin? The only sensible explanation would be that Krege did not foresee that his family and loved ones would be threatened.

This is not a paranoid or extreme allegation. Revisionist literature recognizes that torture, threats and bribery are the central resources on which the Holo-tale has always been dependent. We know that Hoess was brutally tortured, as was Eichmann. Why would tactics of intimidation and brutality suddenly cease to be used?

It is my belief that the story of Richard Krege only makes sense if he was manipulated, by powerful representatives of deception, to abandon his truthful research.

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Re: GPR at TII

Post by Bernard »

neugierig
Also, only one shower-room, pardon, gas chamber existed at that time. Wiernik tells us that construction of the ten new ones started at around the end of August, lasting 5 weeks (chapter 4; 7). So, almost half of the total were allegedly killed in one chamber, why build more?
My school district could sure use neugierig, as they are spending some 20 million to build a new high school that will graduate the same number of students each year as the old one.

neugierig, it is helpful to actually read a few paragraphs of history before voicing passionate opinions. This will at least give you an opportunity to hide your ignorance. According to the basic Treblinka narrative, the old gas chambers (there were 3 of them, not 1 as you argue out of ignorance. This is truly basic. Treblinka 101) had to work, in Suchomel's testimony, "night and day" in order to meet the quotas set by the ambitious Dr Eberl. The issue, thus, was not that the old Treblinka system was remiss in meeting standards of extermination, but that working conditions and the general aesthetics of mass production suffered from such meagre facilities.

The new gas chambers -10 new ones according to both Wiernik and Suchomel - created a cleaner, tidier, more uplifting death camp, neugierig. Franz Stangl told the story nicely to Gita Sereny, explaining how Dr Eberl manifest disorganization, corruption and had the camp in utter disarray. He, Stangl, was all about order, staff cooperation and efficiency. The new gas chambers were not especially critical to increasing death rates, but rather, to enhance elegance. I hope that is helpful to you neugierig and that this will make you less inclined to litter this forum with nonsense.

BTW, since when is 310,000 almost half of 856,000. neugierig, that is not German precision, is it? German precision was the 2014 German
world cup squad that had Africans, Middle Easterners and Germans all on the same page. Impressive

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Re: GPR at TII

Post by Bernard »

Lewishjiars wrote:The Krege study is very interesting in that it is absolutely unambiguous in its findings. Engineer Krege published preliminary results promising more extensive evidence that, not only was there no evidence of mass grave volume of sufficient magnitude to contain 700,000 corpses, there was no evidence of even a single grave or corpse. Krege suggested that Treblinka was a pristine example of rural Poland.
http://barnesreview.org/wp/archives/280
Subsequently, Krege enjoyed a brief period of celebrity among thoughtful, open-minded individuals, and then quite suddenly, he disappeared. His promised, detailed study never became available, and the market on Treblinka forensics was surrendered to the establishment hired propagandist, Dr C S-C.

It is my suspicion that Richard Krege, like all critical witnesses in the evolving Holo-tale, was subjected to nefarious pressures.

It would certainly be quite bizarre for a man to make such bold claims as Krege if he could not back them up. Why would anyone do such a thing that would guarantee humiliation and ruin? The only sensible explanation would be that Krege did not foresee that his family and loved ones would be threatened.

This is not a paranoid or extreme allegation. Revisionist literature recognizes that torture, threats and bribery are the central resources on which the Holo-tale has always been dependent. We know that Hoess was brutally tortured, as was Eichmann. Why would tactics of intimidation and brutality suddenly cease to be used?

It is my belief that the story of Richard Krege only makes sense if he was manipulated, by powerful representatives of deception, to abandon his truthful research.
Wow, that is a fine little demonstration of paranoia. Or is it just silliness? Lewis H Jiars, the proper way to memorialize this Krege fellow is to not. Forget him, pretend he never existed. He was a fraud trying to grab his 15 minutes that Andy Warhol promised. Other..uh...revisionists have just said, "nevermind," to the Krege report that mirrors the Fish reporr. It ain't and it won't. Got it?

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