Bergs bogus challenges?

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Turnagain
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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Turnagain » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:59 pm

You said it, Nessie. You said it a bunch of times to explain why nobody noticed the red/pink discoloration of the cadavers of those gassed with CO. You said that bodies only turn noticeably red after the onset of livor mortis which begins around 20 minutes post mortem. Go find your own quotes. You're trying to weasel dodge by "I dint do nuffins."

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been-there
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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by been-there » Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:07 pm

DasPrussian wrote:
been-there wrote:
DasPrussian wrote:Its already been ascertained that Gerstein told independent witnesses about the gassings. in 1942 I believe. That's enough evidence thankyou very much... Too many questions I'm afraid.
Out of all your nonsense, I will reply to this one, as it demonstrates again the disconnect from the actual reality that pervades — as far as I can see — much of the 'true-believer' head-in-the-sand avoidance.
It has NOT been ascertained. Read this thread, especially this post
re Gerstein, the link you sent went straight to your post which read ;
Separating exactly what he actually heard from Gerstein in 1942 with what he wrote three years later that he heard, was probably no longer clear even to himself, and so for us also is now impossible. I am myself inclined to believe the majority of it is reasonably accurate, but we will never know now.
So basically your reply is 'I don't know' - thanks for that.
No. Try reading the whole post again.
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they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: Berg's challenges demonstrate scientifically the shoah f

Post by been-there » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:25 am

Nessie wrote:
been-there wrote: Ho-hum. :roll:
Why exactly are you here, Nessie?
You make false, unsubstantiated accusations, don't seem to be interested in understanding anything, and yet keep posting flawed and ill-informed posts with challenges/questions that demonstrate a LACK of basic knowledge of the topic. That would be OK if you showed a willingness to improve your understanding. But you seem to be intent only on attacking any post any way you can of those you have decided are what you call "deniers".

Haven't you read this?
Blue women on the beach – and the false toxicity of CO2 in diesel exhaust by Friedrich Paul Berg
If you are really and genuinely interested in understanding this aspect of the revisionist argument, shouldn't you be familiar with this?
Mr Berg has done all the research for you. Yet you keep asking for the evidence which he has already provided and which has previously been referenced for you before here very patiently by others.
Is this some sort of 'disrupt revisionist discussion' exercise?
Berg is correct about diesel not being the engine type use.
Have you anything more than images and a claim from nazigassings. com? Any source that is anyway scientific?
You didn't answer the questions put to you.
Why are you here?
Have you read and studied Berg's argument? Etc.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Nessie
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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Nessie » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:10 pm

Turnagain wrote:You said it, Nessie. You said it a bunch of times to explain why nobody noticed the red/pink discoloration of the cadavers of those gassed with CO. You said that bodies only turn noticeably red after the onset of livor mortis which begins around 20 minutes post mortem. Go find your own quotes. You're trying to weasel dodge by "I dint do nuffins."
You have now weasel dodged your original claims about what I supposedly said. You provide no links, quotes or references. That is because you are lying.

You are on the right lines with what you say above. In fact what I have done is evidence from various sources that livor mortis only starts to appear between 20 minutes and 3 hours after death.

I have also linked to evidence that the bright cherry red fixed lividity as shown by Berg on his web page is from someone who has been dead between 6 to 12 hours. I have also linked to evidence which shows moving a body delays lividity appearing and that pressure on the skin stops lividity appearing at the surface.

All of that explains why only a couple of witnesses we know of commented on bodies looking red.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: Berg's challenges demonstrate scientifically the shoah f

Post by Nessie » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:14 pm

been-there wrote:...
You didn't answer the questions put to you.
Why are you here?
Have you read and studied Berg's argument? Etc.
I am here to debate with denier/revisionists.
Yes I have read and studied Berg's argument. His case about diesel not being the engine type used is correct, his case about bodies and cherry red lividity is flawed.

You did not answer my questions; "Have you anything more than images and a claim from nazigassings. com? Any source that is anyway scientific?"
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Turnagain » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:55 pm

Nessie wrote: All of that explains why only a couple of witnesses we know of commented on bodies looking red.
No, it doesn't. You tried to string together some unrelated bullshit. You've proven nothing.

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Nessie
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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Nessie » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:40 pm

Turnagain wrote:
Nessie wrote: All of that explains why only a couple of witnesses we know of commented on bodies looking red.
No, it doesn't. You tried to string together some unrelated bullshit. You've proven nothing.
Please explain why the time lividity takes to appear, settle and become fixed and the affect moving a body and putting pressure on the skin has on lividity, is "unrelated bullshit"?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Turnagain
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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Turnagain » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:13 pm

Nessie wrote:
Turnagain wrote:You said it, Nessie. You said it a bunch of times to explain why nobody noticed the red/pink discoloration of the cadavers of those gassed with CO. You said that bodies only turn noticeably red after the onset of livor mortis which begins around 20 minutes post mortem. Go find your own quotes. You're trying to weasel dodge by "I dint do nuffins."
You have now weasel dodged your original claims about what I supposedly said. You provide no links, quotes or references. That is because you are lying.

You are on the right lines with what you say above. In fact what I have done is evidence from various sources that livor mortis only starts to appear between 20 minutes and 3 hours after death.

I have also linked to evidence that the bright cherry red fixed lividity as shown by Berg on his web page is from someone who has been dead between 6 to 12 hours. I have also linked to evidence which shows moving a body delays lividity appearing and that pressure on the skin stops lividity appearing at the surface.

All of that explains why only a couple of witnesses we know of commented on bodies looking red.
So, you're back to ESSENTIALLY declaring that no red discoloration appears ante mortem and all cadavers were disposed of before livor mortis became visible. You say that Berg's claims about the symptomatic red discoloration of CO poisoning is invalid because the body he uses as an example shows discoloration from 6-12 hours post mortem. How do you know that? In Wiernik's "A Year In Treblinka" he unequivocally states (ch. 7) that piles of cadavers were left out overnight at TII. Why didn't they develop red/pink livor mortis? Why didn't Wiernik or his German soldier escort notice it and remark upon it? In a different chapter, Wiernik claimed that the corpses turned yellow from the CO gassing. Why wouldn't he notice if the cadavers turned red? What evidence do you have that all the bodies were disposed of before anyone anyone noticed any red discoloration? Are you saying that since nobody noticed the signature red discoloration of CO poisoning it proves that all the cadavers were disposed of before the red discoloration appeared?

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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Nessie » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:48 pm

Turnagain wrote:.......

So, you're back to ESSENTIALLY declaring that no red discoloration appears ante mortem and all cadavers were disposed of before livor mortis became visible.
Yet again you are not reading what I have actually said. So here is another attempt to get through to you;

1 - some bodies may display a slight discolouration ante-mortem, but it is barely noticeable, hence no medical text uses discolouration as a symptom to look for in diagnosing CO poisoning.

2 - I am arguing all bodies were disposed of before cherry red, fixed lividity became visible. You kept on going on that that meant all bodies were disposed of within 20 minutes, but the medical texts show that is the minimum time for it to start to appear. It can also take up to 3 hours and it takes a minimum of 6 hours to become fixed. So there is a big time gap between death and thousands of bodies lying around with bright cherry red lividity showing as per Berg's claims.

Turnagain wrote: You say that Berg's claims about the symptomatic red discoloration of CO poisoning is invalid because the body he uses as an example shows discoloration from 6-12 hours post mortem. How do you know that?
Because the medical texts tell me it takes at least 6 hours before lividity is at its most obvious and fixed.
Turnagain wrote: In Wiernik's "A Year In Treblinka" he unequivocally states (ch. 7) that piles of cadavers were left out overnight at TII. Why didn't they develop red/pink livor mortis? Why didn't Wiernik or his German soldier escort notice it and remark upon it? In a different chapter, Wiernik claimed that the corpses turned yellow from the CO gassing. Why wouldn't he notice if the cadavers turned red? What evidence do you have that all the bodies were disposed of before anyone anyone noticed any red discoloration? Are you saying that since nobody noticed the signature red discoloration of CO poisoning it proves that all the cadavers were disposed of before the red discoloration appeared?
I have show medical texts which state moving a body delays lividity forming and pressure on a body leaves blanching as the blood is squeezed away from or cannot get to the skin's surface as the capillaries collapse. So piles of bodies exerting pressure on each other that have been moved will not show obvious cherry red lividity on the skin.

Yes I am saying that the body disposal happened before the bodies were all turning cherry red such that witnesses would remark on such.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by been-there » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:57 pm

Turnagain wrote:
Nessie wrote:I have also linked to evidence that the bright cherry red fixed lividity as shown by Berg on his web page is from someone who has been dead between 6 to 12 hours. I have also linked to evidence which shows moving a body delays lividity appearing and that pressure on the skin stops lividity appearing at the surface.
All of that explains why only a couple of witnesses we know of commented on bodies looking red.
So, you're back to ESSENTIALLY declaring that no red discoloration appears ante mortem and all cadavers were disposed of before livor mortis became visible. You say that Berg's claims about the symptomatic red discoloration of CO poisoning is invalid because the body he uses as an example shows discoloration from 6-12 hours post mortem.
Q1. How do you know that?

In Wiernik's "A Year In Treblinka" he unequivocally states (ch. 7) that piles of cadavers were left out overnight at TII.
Q2. Why didn't they develop red/pink livor mortis?

Q3. Why didn't Wiernik or his German soldier escort notice it and remark upon it?

In a different chapter, Wiernik claimed that the corpses turned yellow from the CO gassing.
Q4. Why wouldn't he notice if the cadavers turned red?
Q5. What evidence do you have that all the bodies were disposed of before anyone anyone noticed any red discoloration?
Q6. Are you saying that since nobody noticed the signature red discoloration of CO poisoning it proves that all the cadavers were disposed of before the red discoloration appeared?
Another good reply, with reference to the actual key testimony upon which the currently accepted Treblinka holocaust 'story' is based. Thanks for this.
I look forward to seeing what answer Nessie will provide to all of these questions. I have therefore taken the liberty of numbering your questions for ease and clarity of reply, if she is up to addressing ALL of them.

No dodging now, Nessie.

And Q7. on what are you basing your claim that bodies were disposed of "before they were all turning cherry red"?
Q8. If we know that bodies turn pink immediately and before death, why won't you acknowledge that descriptions of "yellow" corpses before they all turned cherry red does not fit?

Q9. Which "couple of witnesses commented on bodies looking red" are you referring to?
Q10. How soon after death did they witness this red colourisation?
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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