Bergs bogus challenges?

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Nessie
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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Nessie » Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:07 pm

Turnagain wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Turnagain wrote:I see that you're back to the usual hoaxer weasel dodge of citing links to non-fatal examples of CO poisoning. Scott has already posted photos of non livor mortis caused red/pink discoloration of cadavers so I won't bother duplicating his efforts. At any rate, what proof do you have that all ~ 2,000,000 people who were murdered with CO were disposed of either by burning or burying in 20 minutes or less? Explain, too, why the Germans would give a fat rat's patootie if someone noticed that the dead Jews were turning red? Why would that concern them?
And I have explained that the occasional person who looked like they had sun burn is not going to be so odd as to make it noticeable. Plus non fatal is irrelevant as the people we are discussing were dead.

Strawman that they were cremated or buried in 20 minutes or less. The evidence of cherry red tells us that 20 minutes is the minimum time needed. The proof I have of the process are the eye witnesses to the process.

Why do I have to explain why Nazis would care or if they were concerned if dead Jews were turning red? The only thing red is the red herring fallacy you have just used.
Again you weasel dodge that the sunburn appearance of CO poisoning is in non-fatal cases. Scott posted a photo of a bright pink non livor mortis involved discoloration of a corpse. Your links to non-fatal examples of CO poisoning is just a typical hoaxer weasel dodge. Aha! The absence of evidence weasel dodge. Since no eyewitnesses reported that they saw any red/pink cadavers, it proves that all the dead bodies were disposed of before the onset of livor mortis, e.g. 20 minutes. There's no evidence as good as no evidence. Uh-huh. Sure, and the Germans disposed of all dead Jews in 20 minutes or less because.....just because.
If people who had an excess of CO in their blood commonly turned ruddy or red like sun burn and that was a recognised common symptom and it was never commented on by a witnesses, then you would have a case something is odd. But alive or recently dead, there are only a few who go a ruddy or sun burnt colour or look life like. So we have a medical reason why it was not noticed, except by one chemist who knew what to look for.

That no one we know of refers to cherry red remains and according to witnesses the whole process was done as quickly as possible so as to kill as many as possible gives us evidence the disposal happened before obvious colour changes. So yes, it is evidence of quick body disposal. It corroborates the witnesses.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Turnagain » Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:10 pm

Only "a few" turned "ruddy" or "red like a sunburn." Uh-huh, so, as a percentage, how many turned red? Give us a link to a site concerned with FATAL cases of CO poisoning only not your hoaxer weasel dodge of citing non fatal cases of CO poisoning. Prove conclusively that ante mortem red/pink discoloration is NOT a perceptible phenomena to laymen. Your claim that the characteristic discoloration was noticed only by a chemist proves only that he could lie more accurately than other hoaxers. Neither does your weasel dodge explain why the eyewitnesses would claim that the cadavers were blue, green, yellow, etc. instead of "ruddy" or "sunburned."

You offer nothing but unsupported assertions for your bogus excuses then try to claim that anyone who asks for data or other proofs is "arguing" from some fallacy. You essentially argue from the assertion of fantasies and impossibilities.

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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Nessie » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:28 pm

Turnagain wrote:Only "a few" turned "ruddy" or "red like a sunburn." Uh-huh, so, as a percentage, how many turned red? Give us a link to a site concerned with FATAL cases of CO poisoning only not your hoaxer weasel dodge of citing non fatal cases of CO poisoning. Prove conclusively that ante mortem red/pink discoloration is NOT a perceptible phenomena to laymen. Your claim that the characteristic discoloration was noticed only by a chemist proves only that he could lie more accurately than other hoaxers. Neither does your weasel dodge explain why the eyewitnesses would claim that the cadavers were blue, green, yellow, etc. instead of "ruddy" or "sunburned."

You offer nothing but unsupported assertions for your bogus excuses then try to claim that anyone who asks for data or other proofs is "arguing" from some fallacy. You essentially argue from the assertion of fantasies and impossibilities.
I have not seen a percentage as to how many people turn ruddy. I am saying it is a few because I have not found any reference to such in numerous descriptives of the symptoms of CO poisoning. If it was common, or even occasional, I would suggest it would be referenced for people to assist in recognising people with CO poisoning. That reasoning is further evidenced by the chemist recognising the signs, but in people who had just died. No other witness references it so it stands to reason it is not noticeable.

I have already said do some research or ask a pathologist as to why witnesses mention other colours of lividity. It may be that those who die from CO poisoning do not just eventually go cherry red. Other colours of lividity may appear. I do not know the answer.

My claims have been evidenced when I have made them in previous posts. You have repeatedly shown that you do not bother to look at the links and properly read my responses.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Scott » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:51 pm

I would say that all of the cadavers look "sunburned" if they absorbed enough carbon monoxide to kill them. The only exceptions would be if the corpses have had time for substantial decomposition. That none of the "eye-witnesses" saw anything of this salient feature from CO or HCN poisonings like this is telling.

Wiernik saw yellow, or maybe he meant "jaundiced" in the metaphorical sense. Why he would think jaundiced means anything besides yellow is a mystery. Of course the most likely explanation is that he just made it up based on what he thought gassed corpses would look like. I mean, mustard gassed corpses must look like "mustard," right?

Anyway, with non-fatal cases of CO poisoning they still look like they have a cherry-red sunburn, but the difference is that their metabolism begins to remove the CO from the blood rapidly if they don't die. So emergency responders can miss or misinterpret this ruddy complexion if they don't know what to look for.

In the case of corpses killed by CO intoxication, the carboxyl-hemoglobin remains what it is. And that is cherry-red. I can't see why any of the lie-witnesses failed to notice this--if they were telling the truth (wink).

:)

“Now we have forced Hitler to war so he no longer can peacefully annihilate one piece of the Treaty of Versailles after the other.”
~ Major General J.F.C. Fuller,
historian – England

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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Scott » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:55 pm

rollo the ganger wrote:
Depth Check wrote: Turnagain, unless you begin formatting your posts in a more user friendly manner I will delete your account!
Goodbye Turnagain.
Sounds serious! Forgive me but I don't see the serious infraction here. Please explain DC. What am I missing?
Just some people having a bad day. T is going to watch the attributions on the formatting when he hits the Quote button and DC and I are going to not fuss about it either. Nested quotes are not always user-friendly.

;)

“Now we have forced Hitler to war so he no longer can peacefully annihilate one piece of the Treaty of Versailles after the other.”
~ Major General J.F.C. Fuller,
historian – England

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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Nessie » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:23 pm

Scott wrote:I would say that all of the cadavers look "sunburned" if they absorbed enough carbon monoxide to kill them. The only exceptions would be if the corpses have had time for substantial decomposition. That none of the "eye-witnesses" saw anything of this salient feature from CO or HCN poisonings like this is telling.

Wiernik saw yellow, or maybe he meant "jaundiced" in the metaphorical sense. Why he would think jaundiced means anything besides yellow is a mystery. Of course the most likely explanation is that he just made it up based on what he thought gassed corpses would look like. I mean, mustard gassed corpses must look like "mustard," right?

Anyway, with non-fatal cases of CO poisoning they still look like they have a cherry-red sunburn, but the difference is that there metabolism because to remove the CO from the blood rapidly if they don't die. So emergency responders can miss or misinterpret this ruddy complexion if they don't know what to look for.

In the case of corpses killed by CO intoxication, the carboxyl-hemoglobin remains what it is. And that is cherry-red. I can't see why any of the lie-witnesses failed to notice this--if they were telling the truth (wink).

:)
Why is the skin tuning red not mentioned in any list of symptoms to look for? Can you link to any source that backs up your claims?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Turnagain » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:39 pm

Nessie wrote:
Scott wrote:I would say that all of the cadavers look "sunburned" if they absorbed enough carbon monoxide to kill them. The only exceptions would be if the corpses have had time for substantial decomposition. That none of the "eye-witnesses" saw anything of this salient feature from CO or HCN poisonings like this is telling.

Wiernik saw yellow, or maybe he meant "jaundiced" in the metaphorical sense. Why he would think jaundiced means anything besides yellow is a mystery. Of course the most likely explanation is that he just made it up based on what he thought gassed corpses would look like. I mean, mustard gassed corpses must look like "mustard," right?

Anyway, with non-fatal cases of CO poisoning they still look like they have a cherry-red sunburn, but the difference is that there metabolism because to remove the CO from the blood rapidly if they don't die. So emergency responders can miss or misinterpret this ruddy complexion if they don't know what to look for.

In the case of corpses killed by CO intoxication, the carboxyl-hemoglobin remains what it is. And that is cherry-red. I can't see why any of the lie-witnesses failed to notice this--if they were telling the truth (wink).

:)
Why is the skin tuning red not mentioned in any list of symptoms to look for? Can you link to any source that backs up your claims?
So, Nessie, you're back to denying that cadavers that died from CO poisoning display any red discoloration before the onset of livor mortis. I'm sure that you have an appropriate weasel dodge for that statement.

You still haven't provided a coherent explanation for why CS-C didn't find any of the mass graves as described by Wiernik. Do you realize that those graves plus the stockpiles of the excavated material (the ex) would have had a surface area of over four (4) acres? Did you notice that in his model of Treblinka, Wiernik's stockpiles not only violate a law of gravity, they are clearly far smaller than a stockpile of 75,000 cubic meters? How do you explain that Nessie? Do you claim that pointing out Wiernik's fallacies is a fallacy of some type? Would that be a "fallacy of I can't answer that?" So far, you've replied with nothing but weasel dodges and unsupported bullshit to questions of how those giant graves were excavated and why CS-C couldn't find them with GPR. The fact remains that the M&H type MB dragline couldn't have accomplished such a feat of excavation (including stockpiling). To claim so is literally the equivalent of the hypothetical Cadillac spaceship. Then you attempt rationalize CS-C's failure to find such nonexistent excavations by claiming that they have somehow, perhaps magically, disappeared. The fact remains that those mythical giant graves DON'T exist, never did and CS-C ain't EVER going to find them. Finito, end of story. Learn it, live it, get over it, Nessie.

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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Scott » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:45 pm

Nessie wrote:
Scott wrote:I would say that all of the cadavers look "sunburned" if they absorbed enough carbon monoxide to kill them. The only exceptions would be if the corpses have had time for substantial decomposition. That none of the "eye-witnesses" saw anything of this salient feature from CO or HCN poisonings like this is telling.

Wiernik saw yellow, or maybe he meant "jaundiced" in the metaphorical sense. Why he would think jaundiced means anything besides yellow is a mystery. Of course the most likely explanation is that he just made it up based on what he thought gassed corpses would look like. I mean, mustard gassed corpses must look like "mustard," right?

Anyway, with non-fatal cases of CO poisoning they still look like they have a cherry-red sunburn, but the difference is that their metabolism begins to remove the CO from the blood rapidly if they don't die. So emergency responders can miss or misinterpret this ruddy complexion if they don't know what to look for.

In the case of corpses killed by CO intoxication, the carboxyl-hemoglobin remains what it is. And that is cherry-red. I can't see why any of the lie-witnesses failed to notice this--if they were telling the truth (wink).

:)

[Edit: typos.]
Why is the skin tuning red not mentioned in any list of symptoms to look for? Can you link to any source that backs up your claims?
The blood has already turned red once the patient has absorbed dangerous amounts of CO. Presumably the emergency responders have already removed the patient from the source of the CO poisoning before they are even examined--if they are still living, that is. The blood is not going to get any redder.

It may be that the CO poisoning case is mild, and with or without other symptoms the patient might still need some medical treatment beyond removal from the source of the CO.

This treatment usually consists of "carb-oxygen," or "carbogen," which is bottled oxygen with a higher percentage of carbon dioxide (CO2) added. The carbon dioxide (CO2) stimulates respiratory rate above normal to force more otherwise pure oxygen from the bottle into the blood as the patient's hemoglobin begins to trade oxygen for the carbon monoxide (CO) that it would prefer.

The literature clearly mentions the cherry-pink coloring of CO cases. What it doesn't do is encourage emergency responders to exclude possible partial CO-poisonings just because nobody has noticed the cherry-red coloring of the contaminated blood.

But when you are dealing with deaths from CO or even near-deaths, the subjects will present that cherry-red carboxylhemoglobin blood because that is what killed them (or may still do so). Nearly every corpse so killed is going to present in this way, assuming they have fair complexions at least. This should not be confused with a ruddy "healthy" complexion, even if the patient has not yet died.

With corpses that are less fresh they will present with the signs of livor mortis from the pooling of the blood. And what that means is that where the cherry-pink blood settles out there will be blanched (whitened) areas of the body, and the color contrast will be even more striking--but not any redder. The blood will then thicken like glue but it will remain abnormally red until substantial decomposition occurs.

I have perused all of the forensic medical literature on this for at least ten years now and it is pretty much the same. Find me a doctor that disagrees with what I just said.

:)

“Now we have forced Hitler to war so he no longer can peacefully annihilate one piece of the Treaty of Versailles after the other.”
~ Major General J.F.C. Fuller,
historian – England

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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Nessie » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:25 pm

Scott wrote:.......
The blood has already turned red once the patient has absorbed dangerous amounts of CO. Presumably the emergency responders have already removed the patient from the source of the CO poisoning before they are even examined--if they are still living, that is. The blood is not going to get any redder.

It may be that the CO poisoning case is mild, and with or without other symptoms the patient might still need some medical treatment beyond removal from the source of the CO.

This treatment usually consists of "carb-oxygen," or "carbogen," which is bottled oxygen with a higher percentage of carbon dioxide (CO2) added. The carbon dioxide (CO2) stimulates respiratory rate above normal to force more otherwise pure oxygen from the bottle into the blood as the patient's hemoglobin begins to trade oxygen for the carbon monoxide (CO) that it would prefer.

The literature clearly mentions the cherry-pink coloring of CO cases. What it doesn't do is encourage emergency responders to exclude possible partial CO-poisonings just because nobody has noticed the cherry-red coloring of the contaminated blood.

But when you are dealing with deaths from CO or even near-deaths, the subjects will present that cherry-red carboxylhemoglobin blood because that is what killed them (or may still do so). Nearly every corpse so killed is going to present in this way, assuming they have fair complexions at least. This should not be confused with a ruddy "healthy" complexion, even if the patient has not yet died.

With corpses that are less fresh they will present with the signs of livor mortis from the pooling of the blood. And what that means is that where the cherry-pink blood settles out there will be blanched (whitened) areas of the body, and the color contrast will be even more striking--but not any redder. The blood will then thicken like glue but it will remain abnormally red until substantial decomposition occurs.

I have perused all of the forensic medical literature on this for at least ten years now and it is pretty much the same. Find me a doctor that disagrees with what I just said.

:)
Again, why is the skin tuning red not mentioned in any list of symptoms to look for? Can you link to any source that backs up your claims?

You have yet to establish that there is a clearly noticeable, out of the ordinary red/pink/ruddy colouration of the dead from gassing by CO. You suggest it, but you do not actually evidence it. In effect you are doing the same as Berg, you both suggest the colour change is obvious and since no one noticed it it did not happen. But there is another possibility which is that the colour change is barely noticeable and unremarkable.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Nessie » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:31 pm

Turnagain wrote:.......
So, Nessie, you're back to denying that cadavers that died from CO poisoning display any red discoloration before the onset of livor mortis. I'm sure that you have an appropriate weasel dodge for that statement.
You are yet again showing you are not actually reading what I have said. I accept there is discolouration. I want evidence to know how often it happens and how obvious it is. All I have is Scott making assertions without corroboration.
Turnagain wrote:You still haven't provided a coherent explanation for why CS-C didn't find any of the mass graves as described by Wiernik. Do you realize that those graves plus the stockpiles of the excavated material (the ex) would have had a surface area of over four (4) acres? Did you notice that in his model of Treblinka, Wiernik's stockpiles not only violate a law of gravity, they are clearly far smaller than a stockpile of 75,000 cubic meters? How do you explain that Nessie? Do you claim that pointing out Wiernik's fallacies is a fallacy of some type? Would that be a "fallacy of I can't answer that?" So far, you've replied with nothing but weasel dodges and unsupported bullshit to questions of how those giant graves were excavated and why CS-C couldn't find them with GPR. The fact remains that the M&H type MB dragline couldn't have accomplished such a feat of excavation (including stockpiling). To claim so is literally the equivalent of the hypothetical Cadillac spaceship. Then you attempt rationalize CS-C's failure to find such nonexistent excavations by claiming that they have somehow, perhaps magically, disappeared. The fact remains that those mythical giant graves DON'T exist, never did and CS-C ain't EVER going to find them. Finito, end of story. Learn it, live it, get over it, Nessie.
Further reliance on fallacies to make your argument. I have started a thread on GPR at TII, to keep this focused on Bergs bogus claim.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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