Bergs bogus challenges?

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been-there
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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by been-there » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:25 am

Turnagain wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Turnagain wrote:...Well, Yankel Wiernik in his seminal work and cornerstone of the holocaust, "A Year In Treblinka" said that one gas chamber load of people got gassed but were left in the gas chambers overnight and by the next morning they had all turned yellow. Do you think that's just a misprint, rather like the little dragline lifting 3000 corpses at once? Is it possible that he actually wrote "red" but it got printed as "yellow?" I'm sure that a dedicated hoaxer can find proof that Wiernik really meant "red" even though "yellow" got printed in his book. Yes, I'm sure that proof can be found for such an obvious misprint.
I previously asked Berg how long cherry red lividity would last and he did not know. As the alleged expert, you would think he would have the answers. But as the non expert cherry picker he is, he looked for what suited his argument and ignored or did not investigate further.
You are simply trying to conflate the red discoloration symptomatic of FATAL CO poisoning with the livor mortis common to almost all cadavers. Just as you tried to conflate the cremation methods in India to the supposed giant grill cremations at the AR camps, you are essentially just lying.
Yes, I also think that accurately sums it up.
Nessie, face the facts patiently explained to you.
You were once innocently deceived by the false 'eye-witness' testimony as we all have been. But now that the truth has been presented to you, you have to choose: to be honest or not.
E.g. you have to choose now whether to acknowledge that Yankel Wiernik was a liar who could not and did NOT witness thousands of yellow corpses of Jews mass-murdered who he assisted in being gassed at Treblinka as he claimed.
By refusing to acknowledge this, you have become guilty of lying also.
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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Duke Umeroffen » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:54 am

Yellow? A small translation correction was dealt with by S Romanov upon the meaning of the word yellow. In fact I had a minor private message exchange previous to publication with SR regarding it upon the old Yuku version of rodoh. He had made a public cryptic comment about the colour yellow in a thread. When I asked him what the deal was, he explained to me what YW had really meant and told me to keep it to myself. Which I did. That was that, until HC published the white paper.

You should all know this by now. It appears that the word was mistranslated and does not refer to a colour so much as a condition. More expert deniers who have read the white paper will know this, I'm quite sure. Why even the denier T Kues also agreed with the interpretation. This yellow can be thought of therefore as more pertaining to gall, or to, "poison." All we have on the matter is that Yankel Wiernik wrote that the corpses looked poisoned. If you disagree with this then you had just better take it up with Kues.
Last edited by Duke Umeroffen on Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by been-there » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:09 am

Duke Umeroffen wrote:I had a small private message exchange with SR regarding this upon the old Yuku version of rodoh when he made a public cryptic comment about the colour, yellow. He then explained to me what YW had really meant and swore me to secrecy. ...All we have on the matter is that Yankel Wiernik wrote that the corpses looked poisoned...
Swore you to secrecy?! :roll:

Can anyone name me one alleged 'holocaust survivor' eye-witness alleged to have seen corpses of alleged mass-gassings who mentioned what would have been the correctly coloured and highly noticeable cherry-red or bright-pink corpses?

Image
http://revblog.codoh.com/2011/06/skin-discoloration/

Umeroffen, you appear to be caught again supporting and perpetuating a lie.

I only have read of one eye-witness testimony that correctly mentions the skin colour of gassed victims: Theodor Friedrich Leidig

Dr. Theodor Friedrich Leidig of the Kriminaltechnisches Institut (KTI) of the RSHA claimed to have witnessed the murder of Russian POW’s detained at Sachsenhausen using a “gas van”.
"Then the van was opened. Some corpses fell out, the rest were unloaded by prisoners. The corpses had, as was determined by us chemists, the pinkish-red [rosa-rote] appearance which is typical for people who have died from carbon monoxide poisoning.”
Last edited by been-there on Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Duke Umeroffen » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:18 am

I have since corrected. "Swore me to secrecy" was just pure journalese. Unlike this upper middle class clown, I read the Daily Mirror as a child.

Back to being blocked. I have written in good faith here pretty much what SR wrote to me, I know this was so too because I subsequently looked for the correction in the white paper. In return for good faith this contemptuous person flat out accuses me of lying.
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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Duke Umeroffen » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:38 am

I suppose BT is up the arsenal over something.

I think that guy Werd went on about it at codoh too in a thread and Kues and Mattogno and old Uncle Tom Interent Denier Cobbleigh and all - probably not.
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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Blogbuster » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:37 pm

Duke Umeroffen wrote:Yellow? A small translation correction was dealt with by S Romanov upon the meaning of the word yellow. In fact I had a minor private message exchange previous to publication with SR regarding it upon the old Yuku version of rodoh. He had made a public cryptic comment about the colour yellow in a thread. When I asked him what the deal was, he explained to me what YW had really meant and told me to keep it to myself. Which I did. That was that, until HC published the white paper.

You should all know this by now. It appears that the word was mistranslated and does not refer to a colour so much as a condition. More expert deniers who have read the white paper will know this, I'm quite sure. Why even the denier T Kues also agreed with the interpretation. This yellow can be thought of therefore as more pertaining to gall, or to, "poison." All we have on the matter is that Yankel Wiernik wrote that the corpses looked poisoned. If you disagree with this then you had just better take it up with Kues.

What? Sergey Romanov caught up in more controversial statements, hidden info, sworn to secrecy and other such "non-transparent" bullshit? How utterly surprising!

hahaha by now who takes anyone from HC seriously
Blogbuster

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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Turnagain » Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:15 pm

Uh-huh, Wiernik's "yellow" was just a mistranslation. OK, then what about the claims that corpses that had been gassed were white, blue, green and, IIRC, we had one vote for polka dots. Perhaps that was just "spotted." The problem remains, the only person to call the correct discoloration for fatal CO poisoning was a medical doctor. Was he speaking from his knowledge base or from direct observation? Since "gas vans" didn't actually exist, he was speaking from his knowledge base as a doctor.

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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Nessie » Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:39 pm

Turnagain wrote:....
You are simply trying to conflate the red discoloration symptomatic of FATAL CO poisoning with the livor mortis common to almost all cadavers......
Some information on livor mortis.

"Livor mortis is a settling of the blood in the lower (dependent) portion of the body, causing a purplish red discoloration of the skin. When the heart stops functioning and is no longer agitating the blood, heavy red blood cells sink through the serum by action of gravity. Livor mortis starts twenty minutes to three hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in four to five hours. Maximum lividity occurs within 6–12 hours." - Wiki

Some information on CO poisoning

"Hemoglobin acquires a bright red color when converted into carboxyhemoglobin, so poisoned cadavers and even commercial meats treated with carbon monoxide acquire an unnatural reddish hue." - Wiki

So when someone dies the lividity that will be cherry red starts to appear from about 20 minutes to 3 hours after death and is at its maximum by 6 to 12 hours. Considering livor mortis is red by nature and the cherry red takes time to appear, unless bodies were left lying around for hours on end there is a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why no one made reference to the bright red colouration of the deceased.
Just as you tried to conflate the cremation methods in India to the supposed giant grill cremations at the AR camps, you are essentially just lying.
The cremation methods used for Hindu funerals show how bodies can be cremated, in large numbers with wood. Did you notice in the video I linked you to how the wood is laid out so as to allow air to get in? Just like a grill for a pyre at TII.

Rather than properly countering my argument you resort to an ad hominem.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Nessie » Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:56 pm

Scott wrote:
Nessie wrote:.........
I previously asked Berg how long cherry red lividity would last and he did not know. As the alleged expert, you would think he would have the answers. But as the non expert cherry picker he is, he looked for what suited his argument and ignored or did not investigate further.
That's because it depends of how long it takes for decomposition to occur. Otherwise the chery-red color of the blood remains.
The cherry red takes from 20 minutes to 3 hours after death to start to appear and is at its maximum by 6 to 12 hours. If the bodies had been dragged from the gas chamber and dumped in the mass graves (where the colour) would be underneath what would be see of the bodies as the blood drains down), when would people see the cherry red lividity?


Scott wrote:
Friedrich Paul Berg wrote: Throughout all of this time from the moment of death inside any gas chamber, the blood itself would have been "bright cherry red" even before any lividity might have appeared. The translucent skin itself from the typically pale-skinned, naked Jews would have revealed the intensely RED blood underneath.
......


The evidence for that claim is?
Well, for about a dozen years I've been pulling whatever articles in forensic journals and textbooks that I've found. Most of the stuff is already at Mr. Berg's site. This is textbook material not magical mystery ship.

The cherry-red coloring is especially prominent with fair-skinned people. And darker-skinned people are mentioned too in relation to CO poisoning but I don't recall the exact wording now as that was not so relevant to Poland during WWII.

Frostbite makes the flesh look blanched too because it has literally frozen, and warm blood isn't circulating in those extremities, or at least until the unfreezing occurs and then it might look reddened. The process looks a little different with dark-complected people but otherwise is the same.

The Livor Mortis, on the other hand, is the striking contrast between the blanched (white) flesh when the blood pools from gravity after the circulation stops--upon which it thickens and darkens when settled. This happens fairly quickly and the texts give the timing or other considerations. (So , for example, if a body is moved after death, the blanched and darker areas of the flesh from the settling of the blood do not line up properly because the blood doesn't pool again once it thickens.)

In CO poisoning cases the blood color is a bright cherry-red and therefore the Livor Mortis is especially notable in corpses. But the bright cherry-red color of the blood occurs from the uptake of carbon monoxide in the first place, and it doesn't get any brighter with time as the blood pools and settles out of the "blanched" part of the flesh.

I'm not really sure what it takes to make this point. I guess one either gets it or one doesn't.

:)
What ever colour lividity is (since we know it can vary if people are poisoned, carbon monoxide – bright cherry red, cyanide – pink, phosphorous – dark brown etc) it takes the same time to appear, which is from 20 minutes to 3 hours after death. Normal livor mortis is reddish anyway, so bodies removed and buried quickly mean no one may see the extreme colour change associated with CO that makes it distinctive, which does not appear until 6 to 12 hours after death. By then the bodies have been buried.

Berg's examples of people with obvious signs of cherry red livor mortis have been dead for up to 6 to 12 hours and have ended up in a mortuary not a grave. The timing issue is important and none of the denier/revisionists are able to deal with it.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Bergs bogus challenges?

Post by Nessie » Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:04 pm

been-there wrote:......

I only have read of one eye-witness testimony that correctly mentions the skin colour of gassed victims: Theodor Friedrich Leidig

Dr. Theodor Friedrich Leidig of the Kriminaltechnisches Institut (KTI) of the RSHA claimed to have witnessed the murder of Russian POW’s detained at Sachsenhausen using a “gas van”.
"Then the van was opened. Some corpses fell out, the rest were unloaded by prisoners. The corpses had, as was determined by us chemists, the pinkish-red [rosa-rote] appearance which is typical for people who have died from carbon monoxide poisoning.”
How long after death were those bodies removed from the van compared to from the TII gas chambers? The reddish colour is the natural colour of livor mortis

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... uEmScS3SYD

It takes an expert to realise the lividity he is seeing is due to the CO poisoning and note, he does call it cherry or bright red. Instead it is pinkish red as it take 6 to 12 hours for the full colour of lividity to appear. By then, the bodies are cremated or buried.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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