What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

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Nessie
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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by Nessie »

Yet more attempts to excuse looking for evidence for the mass transportation and resettlement of Jews from the AR camps. I liked this moan
been-there wrote:....the much easier and more conclusive method to prove this mass-murder ALLEGATION would be to demonstrate empirically the location of the remains of the ALLEGED mass-murdered victims.
based on a comment about it being impossible to find information on Auschwitz in the Russian archives. Maybe been-there will explain how the Soviets not only managed to hide all the information about the mass transit and resettlement of Dutch Jews from Sobibor in 1943, but they managed to hide the people themselves so that only 18 made it back to the Netherlands.

Hunt and Kues both did research, concluded there is no evidence of mass transportation and resettlement and so the hypothesis of the Soviets hid the people and the records is clutching at straws.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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been-there
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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by been-there »

The deportation of 75 yr old Sigmund Rothstein
from Theresienstadt via Treblinka
to the Minsk ghetto in “the East”
...Historians claim that almost all Jews deported to Treblinka were gassed, because there was no selection between those able to work and the unfit as at Auschwitz...
Among the transports that were processed in this way, there were the transports from Theresienstadt. In this Czech village the Germans had ghettoized a large number of old Jews from various origins (German, Austrian, etc.). The provisional policy of the Germans was then to move the Jews “farther east” until they were able to relocate them permanently outside Europe (to Madagascar, for example) and they had deported a large number of them to the Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic countries via Auschwitz, Sobibor, Belzec and Treblinka.
Thus, 10 convoys finally left Theresienstadt for Treblinka in 1942. In one of them was Siegmund Rothstein from Berlin, whose name is found in the Yad Vashem database of holocaust victims.

First, let me say that the name of this deportee from Berlin is entered three times in the database, for the reasons explained above. But still more interesting is the journey taken by this deportee that is described in the database.

Rothstein, born in 1867, was 75 years of age when he was deported from Berlin to Theresienstadt in August 1942, which means that he could only be deemed unfit for work and therefore, according to official historiography, had to be sent to the gas chamber. In which case, why was he [first] sent to Theresienstadt? This is one of the many mysteries of the Holocaust religion, but let’s move on.
From there, he was deported again to Treblinka on September 26, 1942 (transport Br), where, according to the historians, he was gassed at arrival.
The editors of the Czech entry consequently go no further: for them, Rothstein died at Treblinka, too:
http://yvng.yadvashem.org/nameDetails.h ... d=11619891
http://yvng.yadvashem.org/nameDetails.h ... Id=4911011

However, when the German entry mentions the death of Rothstein, it places it much further east, in Belarus — to be precise, in Minsk!
http://yvng.yadvashem.org/nameDetails.h ... d=10784457
http://yvng.yadvashem.org/nameDetails.h ... Id=4129032

As already mentioned, S. Rothstein is in fact no special case: many Berliners (in addition to elderly Jews from other parts of Germany) were deported to Theresienstadt and then from there to Treblinka, but for the German authorities none of those unable to work died at Treblinka and all of those who didn’t return died in Minsk or elsewhere.

Image
The deportation of S. Rothstein: in dashed lines the journey denied by historians.

Evidence that those unable to work who were sent to Treblinka were not gassed but were sent further east to Belarus (where, incidentally, many transports of Jews arrived directly from Germany and Austria, even from Theresienstadt).

http://codoh.com/library/document/4223/?lang=en
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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by Nessie »

Been-there quotes from an article on CODOH by Jean-Marie Boisdefeu a Belgian revisionist (now deceased). I hope been-there understands that there is a huge potential for bias with such a source and so just copying and pasting without checking is a bad idea.

A check finds that all entries apply to Siegmund Rothstein, born 16/01/1867 in Bavaria.

"Entry 10784457 has him living in Kitzingen in Bavaria and he was murdered in Minsk. No mention of how he got to Minsk.
Entry 4129032 has him living in Berlin where he was transported to Theresienstadt on 04/08/1942 and he died in Minsk. No mention of how he got to Minsk.
Entry 4911011 has him living in Berlin where he was transported to Theresienstadt on 04/08/1942 and then to Treblinka on 26/09/1942 where he was murdered.
Entry 11619891 has him living in Berlin where he was transported to Theresienstadt on 04/08/1942 and then to Treblinka on 26/09/1942 where he was murdered."

Boisdefeu asks "why was he [first] sent to Theresienstadt? This is one of the many mysteries of the Holocaust religion, but let’s move on." No lets not move on and let us look at Theresienstadt. It was a model camp specifically for such Jews as Germans who had fought for Germany during WWI and it was one of the camps the Red Cross were allowed to visit to show how well those interred were supposedly being treated. The Nazis did not have one uniform unbending policy towards dealing with the Final Solution and if Boisdefeu had done some research he would understand that. Some some emigrated, some escaped, some hid, many worked and survived or worked and died and many were murdered. Life and death was determined by what camp a person was sent to, whether they could work or not, and if they fell ill did they die or were they treated and returned to work.

His conclusion that Rothstein is "Evidence that those unable to work who were sent to Treblinka were not gassed but were sent further east to Belarus" is based in cherry picking two entries and ignoring the other two more detailed entries (they list dates and transport details) which has him killed in Treblinka. Crucially there is no detail; date or transport record on how he got to Minsk.

So typical for someone who has a desired outcome, evidence which is inconclusive is presented as something on which a definitive conclusion can be made and the desired outcome is supported.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie said.
"So typical for someone who has a desired outcome, evidence which is inconclusive is presented as something on which a definitive conclusion can be made and the desired outcome is supported."

Gee, Nessie, do ya' mean like someone presenting evidence of "disturbed ground" at Treblinka? How about a few bits and pieces of what is called cremains are the 1,200-1,300 cubic meters of cremains that should be somewhere in the vicinity of Treblinka? Is that what is typical for someone who has a desired outcome?

The fact is, Nessie, that you have zip, zero, nada for actual evidence for the claims made for Treblinka or the other AR camps. You have nothing but your weasel dodges and, "evidence which is inconclusive is presented as something on which a definitive conclusion can be made..." Inconclusive evidence and outright lies are your stock in trade Nessie. Pot meet kettle.

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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by rollo the ganger »

Been There wrote:Therefore the fallacious 'argument from ignorance' approach of this question (what happened to the “resettled” Jews?) seems deliberately designed to be unanswerable.
Indeed Been There, Nessie either crafted an unanswerable question or had one handed to him from headquarters. The Germans were not in possession of the areas of the Soviet Union long enough to establish any bonafide resettlements. They did send out hundreds of thousands of laborers to perform the tasks mentioned here on this forum previously. Their fate is as varied as those who were sent. As far as mass deportations from the AR camps they could have only been deported as fast as they arrived there. Usually slower. Nessie also knows full well the records at these camps were either destroyed, taken away (to the Soviet Union), lost or never compiled in the first place. Those are the facts of the matter and it is pointless to discuss this with Nessie.

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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by been-there »

The ignoring of the case of Sigmund Rothstein by the 'holocaust' believers is perhaps revealing of the general ‘believer’ mind-set. Viz. that mind-set where anything which 'falsifies' the cherished belief-system is either ignored, or if it can't be ignored then is justified in some dishonest, delusional manner.

Just as a single rabbit fossil from the precambrian Mesoproterozoic or Neoproterozoic era would 'falsify' current evolutiony theory, in the same way the death of a single 75 year old Jew in Minsk AFTER being transported to “the East” through Treblinka 'falsifies' current ‘holocaust’ history.

If ‘believers’ here don't understand why, then this further demonstrates that what is nebulously referred to as ‘THE Holocaust’ is for them a belief-system like any other religion and is NOT a genuine ‘history' grounded in empirical reality.

The only 'wiggle' room that I can see is if S. Rothstein was transported from Theresienstadt to Minsk by some other route than via Treblinka.

But if that were the case, it further destroys the credibility of the Yad Vashem archive of alleged ‘holocaust’ deaths AND the credibility of the 'holocaust' archives upon which they claim their information to be based.
For anyone not following the provided links, that is because the Czech files say he was transported to Trebinka and there was “murdered”.
Whereas the German files do not include his tranportation via Treblinka. They only admit he was “deported” from Theresienstadt and give his “place of death” as Minsk.

Either way, the credibility of 'the holocaust' as reliable history is compromised.
Firstly because the same person is listed as a 'holocaust' fatality at least four times.
Secondly because the German entries fail to admit that files exist detailing his deportation via Treblinka.
Finally and most devastatingly, because he is an example of a trainload of Jewish deportees including old Jews unfit for work where at least one of them was NOT gassed at Treblinka but was transited through it to “the East”.
Czech files wrote:SIEGMUND ROTHSTEIN
Siegmund Rothstein was born in 1867. During the war he was deported with Transport Br from Theresienstadt Ghetto, Czechoslovakia to Treblinka Extermination Camp, Poland on 26/09/1942.

Siegmund was murdered in the Shoah.

This information is based on a List of Theresienstadt camp inmates found in Terezinska Pametni Kniha [Theresienstädter Gedenkbuch], Terezinska Iniciativa, vol. I-II Melantrich, Praha 1995, vol. III Academia Verlag, Prag 2000 (Memorial Book Theresienstadt, Terezin Initiative).

Last Name Rothstein
First Name Siegmund
Date of Birth 16/01/1867
Origin of Deportation City of Berlin, Germany
Destination of Deportation Theresienstadt Ghetto, Czechoslovakia
Details of Transport I/37 from Berlin, to Theresienstadt,Ghetto,Czechoslovakia on 04/08/1942
Prisoner Number in Transport 3013
Origin of Deportation Theresienstadt Ghetto, Czechoslovakia
Destination of Deportation Treblinka Extermination Camp, Poland
Details of Transport Transport Br from Theresienstadt,Ghetto Czechoslovakia to Treblinka,Extermination Camp,Poland on 26/09/1942
Prisoner Number in Transport 959
Status according to Source murdered
Source Terezinska Pametni Kniha [Theresienstädter Gedenkbuch], Terezinska Iniciativa, vol. I-II Melantrich, Praha 1995, vol. III Academia Verlag, Prag 2000 (Memorial Book Theresienstadt, Terezin Initiative)
German files wrote:ZIGMUND ROTHSTEIN
Zigmund Rothstein was born in Mainstockheim, Germany in 1867. Prior to WWII he lived in Berlin, Germany. During the war he was in Berlin, Germany. Deported with Transport I/37 from Berlin,Berlin,Berlin,Germany to Theresienstadt,Ghetto,Czechoslovakia on 04/08/1942.

Zigmund was murdered in the Shoah.

This information is based on a List of deportation from Berlin found in Gedenkbuch Berlins der jüdischen Opfer des Nazionalsozialismus, Freie Universität Berlin, Zentralinstitut für sozialwissenschaftliche Forschung, Edition Hentrich, Berlin 1995 (Memorial Book of the Jewish victims of National Socialism in Berlin, Free Unive.

Last Name Rothstein
First Name Zigmund* (translated from Hebrew)
First Name Sigmund
Date of Birth 16/01/1867
Place of Birth Mainstockheim,Kitzingen (Mainfranken),Bavaria,Germany
Permanent Place of Residence Berlin,Germany
Place during the War City of Berlin,Germany
Place of Death Minsk, Belorussia (USSR)
Origin of Deportation City of Berlin, Germany
Destination of Deportation Theresienstadt, Litomerice, Bohemia, Czechoslovakia
Details of Transport Transport I/37 from Berlin, Germany to Theresienstadt Ghetto, Czechoslovakia on 04/08/1942
Status according to Source missing
Source Gedenkbuch Berlins der jüdischen Opfer des Nazionalsozialismus, Freie Universität Berlin, Zentralinstitut für sozialwissenschaftliche Forschung, Edition Hentrich, Berlin 1995 (Memorial Book of the Jewish victims of National Socialism in Berlin, Free Unive
Type of material List of deportation from Berlin
Item ID 4129032
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by Nessie »

rollo the ganger wrote:
Been There wrote:Therefore the fallacious 'argument from ignorance' approach of this question (what happened to the “resettled” Jews?) seems deliberately designed to be unanswerable.
Indeed Been There, Nessie either crafted an unanswerable question or had one handed to him from headquarters. The Germans were not in possession of the areas of the Soviet Union long enough to establish any bonafide resettlements. They did send out hundreds of thousands of laborers to perform the tasks mentioned here on this forum previously. Their fate is as varied as those who were sent. As far as mass deportations from the AR camps they could have only been deported as fast as they arrived there. Usually slower. Nessie also knows full well the records at these camps were either destroyed, taken away (to the Soviet Union), lost or never compiled in the first place. Those are the facts of the matter and it is pointless to discuss this with Nessie.
Still waiting for evidence of that 1.27 million strong work party. They would still need to be accommodated in the east. It was not Estonia, Kiev, Nikolayev or Kherson as they had been declared emptied or Juden-frei in 1941.

You are just upset that your desired outcome cannot be evidence and you are reluctant to face up to the reason why.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by Nessie »

been-there wrote:The ignoring of the case of Sigmund Rothstein by the 'holocaust' believers is perhaps revealing of the general ‘believer’ mind-set. Viz. that mind-set where anything which 'falsifies' the cherished belief-system is either ignored, or if it can't be ignored then is justified in some dishonest, delusional manner.
That instance is not being ignored here.
been-there wrote:Just as a single rabbit fossil from the precambrian Mesoproterozoic or Neoproterozoic era would 'falsify' current evolutiony theory, in the same way the death of a single 75 year old Jew in Minsk AFTER being transported to “the East” through Treblinka 'falsifies' current ‘holocaust’ history.
Only if the one and only, wholly accepted Holocaust history was that every single Jew was killed. If you actually knew much about the Holocaust, you would know that out of the millions of Jews taken into custody and imprisoned by the Nazis many did manage to survive, whether by luck, escape, constitution, collaboration or other means. Jews from different places had different survival rates. You clearly think the narrative is they all died, but you are wrong.
been-there wrote:If ‘believers’ here don't understand why, then this further demonstrates that what is nebulously referred to as ‘THE Holocaust’ is for them a belief-system like any other religion and is NOT a genuine ‘history' grounded in empirical reality.
It would help if you did read some histories. You would then find out that the Nazi system of command was each area had a leader and it was up to him how best to implement the Final Solution to the Jewish Question. Hans Frank ran the General Government differently from Arthur Greiser in the Warthegau.
been-there wrote:The only 'wiggle' room that I can see is if S. Rothstein was transported from Theresienstadt to Minsk by some other route than via Treblinka.
The wriggling here is the claim he was transited to Minsk via Treblinka, when two records show he died at Treblinka.
been-there wrote:But if that were the case, it further destroys the credibility of the Yad Vashem archive of alleged ‘holocaust’ deaths AND the credibility of the 'holocaust' archives upon which they claim their information to be based.
For anyone not following the provided links, that is because the Czech files say he was transported to Trebinka and there was “murdered”.
Whereas the German files do not include his tranportation via Treblinka. They only admit he was “deported” from Theresienstadt and give his “place of death” as Minsk.
What that shows is denialists claim absolute truths from incomplete records that are still being investigated and have errors.
been-there wrote:Either way, the credibility of 'the holocaust' as reliable history is compromised.
No, your credibility is destroyed by your reluctance to fact check (you have been forced into dealing with this issue there are records he died at Treblinka because I did fact check). The entire history of the Holocaust is not undermined by a few files about one person. That claim is ridiculous.
been-there wrote:Firstly because the same person is listed as a 'holocaust' fatality at least four times.
Secondly because the German entries fail to admit that files exist detailing his deportation via Treblinka.
Finally and most devastatingly, because he is an example of a trainload of Jewish deportees including old Jews unfit for work where at least one of them was NOT gassed at Treblinka but was transited through it to “the East”.
That assumes the files showing his death in Minsk are correct. Can you evidence they are the correct version?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by Aryan Scholar »

Nessie wrote:What that shows is denialists claim absolute truths from incomplete records that are still being investigated and have errors.
6,000,000 dead Jews being claimed as absolute truth since the end of the war based on incomplete records.

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Re: What happened to the "resettled" Jews?

Post by Nessie »

Aryan Scholar wrote:
Nessie wrote:What that shows is denialists claim absolute truths from incomplete records that are still being investigated and have errors.
6,000,000 dead Jews being claimed as absolute truth since the end of the war based on incomplete records.
The only people who claim 6m is an absolute truth are the denialists. The academics who have studied records instead come out with ranges and approximations. Even the newspaper articles etc that refer to the 6 million are not saying that is precisely and definitively how many were killed.

Been-there is acting like a newspaper when he shouts a cheap and deceptive headline;

"The deportation of 75 yr old Sigmund Rothstein
from Theresienstadt via Treblinka
to the Minsk ghetto in “the East


and then presents evidence which also states Rothstein was killed at Treblinka, as if that undermines the entire Holocaust narrative, of which he also thinks there is only one definitive agreed upon official version where 6 million were killed.

Facts is, from the evidence, we do not know if he was deported to Treblinka and killed or deported to Minsk and died there. Since the Theresienstadt record, which is where he was transported from, has him going to Treblinka and names the train and date, we know he went there. The German record misses that out completely and then has him in Minsk with no train record of his transportation there, which raises questions about its accuracy.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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