'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:24 pm

been-there wrote:In case any other Statistically Moronic individuals have trouble comprehending, allow me to make the connection easier to understand.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Ms Grese... treated them like unfit Jews ready for S.B. or to be taken into the camp for labour or death.
...Yeah, her testimony on Sonderbehandlung more or less puts an exclamation point behind this: http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... =80#p28216.
Irma G AND Sonderbehandlung. Do you see now? The riffing on S.B and Irma G was made by another SM individual.
Well- and Statistical Moronic is so clever and so germane - what I wrote about earlier references to Sonderbehandlung was obviously because Ms Grese herself provided the court with another example of the wide use of Sonderbehandlung:
What were the prisoners supposed to do when the whistle went?

-- Fall in fives, and it was my duty to see that they did so. Dr. Mengele then came and made the selection. As I was responsible for the camp my duties were to know how many people were leaving and I had to count them, and I kept the figures in a strength book. After the selection took place they were sent into "B" Camp, and Dreshel telephoned and told me that they had gone to another camp in Germany for working purposes or for special treatment, which I thought was the gas chamber. I then put in my strength book either so many for transfer to Germany to another camp, or so many for S.B. (Sonder Behandlung). It was well known to the whole camp that S. B. meant the gas chamber.
And, of course, your attempt at insult aside, I'd already explained to Bernard that just as you made no sense with regard to gassing, you made no sense with regard to your witterings on S.B. Which I am sure Bernard didn't need your help figuring out.

The larger and more important point is that your attempt to bring in the Franks under the rubric of Sonderbehandlung fell as flat as your other "material."

Keep trying: you will get one right somewhere along the way, or manage to be funny. Or something.
"the Germans had ample justifiable cause to oppose a minority within their society who worked AGAINST their county's interests" -- been-there, 24 April 2014

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Bernard » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:15 am

Stat Mack, is "riffing on sonder behandlung" not a pretext for an act of incoherent blather? been-there tries to justify his tangential and irrelevent rant as being the responsibility of Stat Mack for addressing Irma Grese's use of the SB term. Stat Mack wasn't riffing on Sonder behandlung but making a critical observation. been-there just interjected some meaningless point about Anne Frank and somehow hallucinated that it pertained to the term sonder behandlung. I am sick of having been-there derailing threads, making non-points and running away from responsibility. This is naked trolling and bad faith. It is also ruining any chance for a meaningful debate.

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by been-there » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:26 am

been-there wrote:In view of it being time for all good sheeple to be reminded, to accept uncritically and unintelligently, and to be reindoctrinated again with the exaggerations, the demonisations, and the mythological aspects of the genuine persecution of Jewry in Europe during WW2, here is an article with one story of a personal travesty of justice. It is the case of the victor's vengeance and lynching of a young 21 year old women, Irma Grese.
You will notice that she met her lynching bravely and with great personal dignity, according to the testimony of her lyncher/hangman. That she wrote to her parents that she went to her death with a "clear conscience", implying that she knew the testimonies against her were false and exaggerated. And you will notice that though serving at Auschwitz she is yet another person who claimed up to her death that she never saw a gas chamber, but remarked that she heard about them from prisoners. Other SS staff also knew nothing about them save what the prisoners rumoured. There is also the personal testimony of an inmate detailing her personal kindness to her.
"Grese’s comments about the alleged gas chambers at Auschwitz are most interesting.
She never saw a gas chamber, but remarked that she heard about them from prisoners.
Other SS staff also seemed to know nothing about them save what the prisoners rumoured.
Thus, when she wrote SB for Sonder Behandlung in her strength book, she assumed that these people were sent to the rumoured gas chambers."

http://k0nsl.org/blog/detox/a-german-gi ... oic-death/

In light of the above comment, an evaluation of what Sonder Behandlung actually entailed in reality will be extremely relevant to any genuine conversation of Irma Grese as a prophylactic to the mass repetition of the more mythological aspects of 'THE Holocaust'.
So what did the term S.B. actually, IN REALITY, mean for known individuals in uncontested cases who were at the camp where Irma worked?

Irma G was charged and convicted for crimes against humanity at both Auschwitz and Belsen and for being a participant of an alleged extermination camp.

Irma is STILL being used as evidence that people were selected as unfit to work and then gassed using a euphemism of 'sonderbehandlung' abbreviated to S.B., isn't she?
And yet cases of the Franks - who were selected as unfit for work at Auschwitz - DO NOT jive with this 'holocaust' mythology. Bernard, St.Mk? Are you following this line of reasoning OK so far? They were NOT sent to a gas chamber as Irma G says she would have assumed from the prisoner's rumours. The Frank girls were sent to the Bergen-Belsen Erholungslager (recovery) camp.
Victor Frankl, the Jews he mentions and the testimony of Martin Gottfried Weiss all confirm this 'sonderbehandlung' (S.B.) Erm... is any of this getting through?

I notice that no comprehension-challenged individuals have commented upon the undisputed evidence for Bergen- Belsen being a camp for 'special' privilege Jewish inmates AND a camp where prisoners too sick to work were brought for Sonder behandling - special treatment from other concentration camps. They were sent to Belsen to recover and recuperate. Bergen-Belsen contained no Sonder behandling -gas chambers.
Some Jews who had been permitted to be at the camp of Bergen-Belsen as a "special privilege" (sonder behandling) were charged after the war - via a lawsuit filed by the Jewish community in Thessaloniki - of being collaborators, because of this Sonder behandling - special treatment.

The following is excerps from The Belsen Trial transcript regarding the closing argument of Major Cranfield on behalf of Irma Grese:
The evidence of Diament against Grese regarding the latter's responsibility for selecting victims for the gas chamber was vague. Regarding Lobowitz's allegation against Grese, Counsel asked whether, however conscientious the accused was, it was not absolute nonsense to suggest that roll-calls went on from six to eight hours each day? He also threw doubt on the credibility of Neiger's words.

As against Triszinska's allegation concerning Grese's dog, the Court had heard the accused deny that she ever had a dog, and that has been corroborated by others of the accused and by other witnesses from Auschwitz.

Regarding Kopper's story of the punishment Kommando, Counsel referred to Grese's evidence that she was in charge of the punishment Kommando for two days only, and in charge of the Strassenbaukommando, which was a type of punishment Kommando, for two weeks. The allegation of Kopper in her affidavit was that she was in charge of the punishment Kommando in Auschwitz from 1942 to 1944, but in the box she said that the accused was in charge of the punishment company working outside the camp for seven months. In the box she failed to reconcile those two statements. Was it probable that Grese would be in charge, the only Overseer, of a Kommando 800 strong, with an S.S. man, Herschel, to assist her? If 30 prisoners were killed each day, should there not have been some corroboration of this story?

Counsel asked the Court to disbelieve Szafran's story about the shooting of the two girls, in view of Hoessler's statement that the windows of the block in question were fixed windows. The story was told neither in Szafran's affidavit nor even during her examination; she produced it on re-examination.

Commenting on the allegation of Ilona Stein, Counsel asked whether the Court believed, in view of the evidence, that an Overseer had any power to give an order to an S.S. guard? He pointed out that the witness, in her affidavit, said: "I did not hear the order". He doubted also whether Grese could have beaten anyone with a belt as flimsy as that worn by an Overseer at Auschwitz, one of which was produced as an exhibit.

Eleven witnesses had recognized Grese in Court. Of these eleven five made no allegation of any kind against her. This fact threw doubt on the evidence of those witnesses who said that she was notorious, a ferocious savage and the worst S.S. woman.
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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Joe Future » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:45 am

Please do try at all times to both address and refer to people on rodoh in the HGD&D section by their chosen user handles, been-there. Do not use insulting formations of their names.
That's not a semi colon, that's a colon!

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:18 am

Randomly choosing formulations using the word "special," whether used by the Nazis or not, and equating these formulations with "special treatment" is not being serious. For example, your writing this -
"special privilege" (sonder behandling).
- is both disingenuous and pig ignorant. You apparently picked up the term "special privilege" here from a non-German document, and "sonder behandling," whatever that means, doesn't mean "special privilege" (the word Sonderbehandlung means special treatment). There is no "critique" of the term in what you wrote, just a jumble of confusion.

Nor is it pertinent to state that your opponents in discussion have a view of Bergen-Belsen which they don't have. Bergen-Belsen wasn't a death camp; it wasn't established to exterminate Jews, and extermination didn't become one of its purposes, although many of its "wards" died there. Under the Nazis, the camp, very broadly, had IIRC three main phases: POW camp, a "holding" or "residential" camp mainly for so-called "exchange Jews" (these were certain Jews selected as hostages whom the Germans hoped they could "trade" for captured Germans) but also a recovery camp for a small number of sick Jews not put to death immediately (many of whom, given the conditions in this camp, died at Bergen-Belsen), and, finally, a dumping ground for Jews and others from the collapsing KL system in the end days of the war. It is this last phase that made Bergen-Belsen notorious. All this is in current literature, including the links you yourself used. Here http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10005224 more complexity is described within this broad outline. Prisoners in the different sections of the camp were treated differently, which makes generalizations difficult.

Conflation of the camp with the death camps, which characterized some early on reporting about Nazi atrocities, and then attributing that conflation to opponents writing today, is a common denier technique. Recent work on the camp, as far as I know (e.g., Blatman's book on the death marches and, more popularly, the link above), has clarified the phases of the camp and its role at the time of its capture. I am not sure how the fact that the Nazis didn't murder every sick Jew is evidence that they didn't murder large numbers of unfit Jews.

Further, Irma Grese is most "used" to illustrate a sadistic strain in the Nazi camp system, as an example of someone who derived pleasure from abuse of prisoners. To "debunk" that her role at Bergen-Belsen was not involved with the mass murder process ("is STILL being used as evidence that people were selected as unfit to work and then gassed using a euphemism of 'sonderbehandlung' abbreviated to S.B.") is inane. In any event, even at Auschwitz Grese was a not very large cog in a large extermination machine that worked with or without her participation - lurid stories about her made her notorious, earned her the nickname "the blonde beast," and made her name nearly synonymous with a sadistic strain in Nazism, which view, IMHO, is somewhat missing the point about the Nazi system.
"the Germans had ample justifiable cause to oppose a minority within their society who worked AGAINST their county's interests" -- been-there, 24 April 2014

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Duke Umeroffen » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:22 pm

Even a relative neophyte should know that "Sonderbehandlung" has to translate as special treatment or handling. It should have been pelucidly obvious to been-there. Just compare in Swedish the terminal, (sär) + behandling. That's going to tell you that sonder+behandlung must refer to specially dealing or specially handling something. Nothing to do with privilege.

Such apparent basic ignorance. What next?
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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Bernard » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:27 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Randomly choosing formulations using the word "special," whether used by the Nazis or not, and equating these formulations with "special treatment" is not being serious. For example, your writing this -
"special privilege" (sonder behandling).
- is both disingenuous and pig ignorant. You apparently picked up the term "special privilege" here from a non-German document, and "sonder behandling," whatever that means, doesn't mean "special privilege" (the word Sonderbehandlung means special treatment). There is no "critique" of the term in what you wrote, just a jumble of confusion.

Nor is it pertinent to state that your opponents in discussion have a view of Bergen-Belsen which they don't have. Bergen-Belsen wasn't a death camp; it wasn't established to exterminate Jews, and extermination didn't become one of its purposes, although many of its "wards" died there. Under the Nazis, the camp, very broadly, had IIRC three main phases: POW camp, a "holding" or "residential" camp mainly for so-called "exchange Jews" (these were certain Jews selected as hostages whom the Germans hoped they could "trade" for captured Germans) but also a recovery camp for a small number of sick Jews not put to death immediately (many of whom, given the conditions in this camp, died at Bergen-Belsen), and, finally, a dumping ground for Jews and others from the collapsing KL system in the end days of the war. It is this last phase that made Bergen-Belsen notorious. All this is in current literature, including the links you yourself used. Here http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10005224 more complexity is described within this broad outline. Prisoners in the different sections of the camp were treated differently, which makes generalizations difficult.

Conflation of the camp with the death camps, which characterized some early on reporting about Nazi atrocities, and then attributing that conflation to opponents writing today, is a common denier technique. Recent work on the camp, as far as I know (e.g., Blatman's book on the death marches and, more popularly, the link above), has clarified the phases of the camp and its role at the time of its capture. I am not sure how the fact that the Nazis didn't murder every sick Jew is evidence that they didn't murder large numbers of unfit Jews.

Further, Irma Grese is most "used" to illustrate a sadistic strain in the Nazi camp system, as an example of someone who derived pleasure from abuse of prisoners. To "debunk" that her role at Bergen-Belsen was not involved with the mass murder process ("is STILL being used as evidence that people were selected as unfit to work and then gassed using a euphemism of 'sonderbehandlung' abbreviated to S.B.") is inane. In any event, even at Auschwitz Grese was a not very large cog in a large extermination machine that worked with or without her participation - lurid stories about her made her notorious, earned her the nickname "the blonde beast," and made her name nearly synonymous with a sadistic strain in Nazism, which view, IMHO, is somewhat missing the point about the Nazi system.
We have another epic fail, and, frankly, hilarious misunderstanding and tissue of ignorance from been-there. Clearly, been-there has no background on the basic facts about Bergen Belsen that are available for anyone to access in 5 seconds, such as http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... elsen.html

Nor does been-there appear to know about Himmler's role in changes in Nazi Jewish policy in the final stages of the war, nor of the Joel Brand/Eichmann saga in Hungary and the role that Bergen Belsen played in that drama. I suggest that been-there submit to a few hours of BBC documentary - Auschwitz, Inside the Nazi State - for a general overview of Nazi policy. Superficial, at times displaying errors, this BBC doc will at least disabuse been-there of some of the more laughable denier memes.

There are reasons within the known and universally accepted history of Nazism why some Jews were well cared for at Bergen Belsen. been-there acts as though he has discovered the few priviliged Jews at Bergen Belsen by himself and that no one else knows :lol:

We had a bergen belsen thread at RODOH in the olden days, so this is old hat. About half the prisoners at BB died of starvation and disease. The Jews at this, and other camps were there because they were Jewish, and vast numbers of children perished there. IIRC, the dead numbered around 35,000. Imagine been-there's reaction if 35,000 innocent Palestinians were murdered in this fashion in Israeli camps. To whom but the most putrid Nazi wannabe scum would Bergen Belsen be an example of humanitarianism?

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by been-there » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:46 pm

There will always be some possibility of a small statistic of moronic members of any online discussion group. This is a statement of obvious fact. Similarity of this fact to avatar names is the opposite of lugubrious. ;)
For those who display such characteristics - whether in part concerning certain topics or in total generally - it can be seen as a kindness to clarify again in simple terms the points miscomprehended or deliberately obfuscated.
So, in that spirit here is the main point again, in the summation of Irma's contemporary, Major Cranfield:
"Eleven witnesses had recognized Grese in Court. Of these eleven, five made no allegation of any kind against her. This fact threw doubt on the evidence of those witnesses who said that she was notorious, a ferocious savage and the worst S.S. woman.

Then the point of the replies concerning SB.
The term SB has been interpreted and perpretrated by a Shoah-indoctrination -programme as a eupehimism for 'gas chamber homicide'. Irma G's testimony has been used as an example of an alleged participant of the alleged holocaust-shoah-genocide policy using the term to refer to such rumoured homicidal gassings.
But the cases and examples given show this not to be the case in certain well-known instances.
This is the last attempt at explaining this to any of such comprehension-challenged individuals who actually would like to be involved in a genuine well-intentioned exchange of understandings.

Special treatment, special privilige, special. What does it mean? If the 53 accused Jewish collobarators of Vergen-Belsen had not survived the War we can be fairly sure that there special privilege status would be interpreted as meaning "elimination". But whatever. This is to concentrate on the twigs of one tree to avoid looking at the forest.

Today is 'THE Holocaust' Rembrance day. The false accusations against Irma Grese and her lynching for crimes not deserving of a death penalty were presented here as a prophylactic to the predicted media monsoon of mendacious shoah memoria. But now it is upon us. For those of us here aleady heavily infected with false aspects of 'the holocaust' meme, this was not intended to cure you. But you can perhaps take comfort from the knowledge that there are those who have made a healthy recovery from this memoria meme.
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or they cease being honest"
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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by Bernard » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:23 pm

been-there wrote:There will always be some possibility of a small statistic of moronic members of any online discussion group. This is a statement of obvious fact. Similarity of this fact to avatar names is the opposite of lugubrious. ;)
For those who display such characteristics - whether in part concerning certain topics or in total generally - it can be seen as a kindness to clarify again in simple terms the points miscomprehended or deliberately obfuscated.
So, in that spirit here is the main point again, in the summation of Irma's contemporary, Major Cranfield:
"Eleven witnesses had recognized Grese in Court. Of these eleven, five made no allegation of any kind against her. This fact threw doubt on the evidence of those witnesses who said that she was notorious, a ferocious savage and the worst S.S. woman.

Then the point of the replies concerning SB.
The term SB has been interpreted and perpretrated by a Shoah-indoctrination -programme as a eupehimism for 'gas chamber homicide'. Irma G's testimony has been used as an example of an alleged participant of the alleged holocaust-shoah-genocide policy using the term to refer to such rumoured homicidal gassings.
But the cases and examples given show this not to be the case in certain well-known instances.
This is the last attempt at explaining this to any of such comprehension-challenged individuals who actually would like to be involved in a genuine well-intentioned exchange of understandings.

Special treatment, special privilige, special. What does it mean? If the 53 accused Jewish collobarators of Vergen-Belsen had not survived the War we can be fairly sure that there special privilege status would be interpreted as meaning "elimination". But whatever. This is to concentrate on the twigs of one tree to avoid looking at the forest.

Today is 'THE Holocaust' Rembrance day. The false accusations against Irma Grese and her lynching for crimes not deserving of a death penalty were presented here as a prophylactic to the predicted media monsoon of mendacious shoah memoria. But now it is upon us. For those of us here aleady heavily infected with false aspects of 'the holocaust' meme, this was not intended to cure you. But you can perhaps take comfort from the knowledge that there are those who have made a healthy recovery from this memoria meme.
been-there, you don't take in information but, rather, obliviously perseverate with your initial fiasco after your points have been destroyed.

For example:
1) Ms Grese admitted under cross examination that she went beyond her orders to act out cruelties on her own inititive. I posted the testimony and you just ignore it.

2) Ms Grese made selections with the belief that those selected were going to die in the gas chambers. I posted her testimony of this, remember? Guess not.

3) Ms Grese's statements that she only heard about the gas chambers from prisoners and not from superiors is transparently exculpatory as it makes it seem as though she is outside of the "loop" and without power. You fail to acknowledge or counter this blatently obvious point.

All in all, been-there, you ignore the points that are made in this thread, perseveratively repeat things after they have been discredited and offer no real debate whatsoever. This is trolling as you are trying to inflame people without any effort at serious debate. I, personally, believe that you are operating on bad faith and deserve to be banned if you don't make a reasonable attempt to argue your points

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Re: 'Holocaust reindoctrination' prophylactic.

Post by been-there » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:02 pm

Bernard wrote: 1) Ms Grese admitted under cross examination that she went beyond her orders to act out cruelties on her own initiative.
A point neither quibbled nor contested.
Bernard wrote:2) Ms Grese made selections with the belief that those selected were going to die in the gas chambers.
If we can agree that the actual known facts are that Ms Grese gave testimony in a war crimes trial stating that she made selections with that belief, then again another point not contested.
Bernard wrote:3) Ms Grese's statements that she only heard about the gas chambers from prisoners and not from superiors is transparently exculpatory as it makes it seem as though she is outside of the "loop" and without power.
To me "it makes it seem as though" she only heard rumours from prisoners about gas chambers. Erm... exactly as she said. No more no less.
Bernard wrote:All in all, been-there, you ignore the points that are made in this thread, perseveratively repeat things after they have been discredited and offer no real debate whatsoever.
You are raising strawman arguments. As said before to St. Mck on numerous occassions, I do not feel the need to answer a.) either deliberate obfuscation of the subject matter and intention of threads or b.) replies that are based upon a lack of comprehension of the the subject matter and intention of threads.
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