samuel Untermeyer - origins of a myth, call for a war!

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Sasquatch
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Re: samuel Untermeyer - origins of a myth, call for a war!

Post by Sasquatch »

Huntinger wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:12 pm
The impression I get when reading this persons post BT is that it straight from an old history book to present the war in the way that demonizes the Germans and makes the allies look good. All of his syntax, wording seems totally biased as though he has a closed mind. I also get the feeling he is going the same way as the Lochness dude.
When have I ever said that the Germans were bad and the Allies were good?

I am neither biased nor close-minded. However, I do like to believe in facts that are verified and not propaganda.
"Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart. The really great men must, I think, have great sadness on earth." - Fyodor Dostoevsky

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Re: samuel Untermeyer - origins of a myth, call for a war!

Post by been-there »

Sasquatch wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:10 pm
been-there wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:05 pm
You again dodged my question to you.

Here it is again: Will you acknowledge that the history you have been taught is deceitful if I provide evidence of massacres and persecution by Poles of ethnic Germans living in Poland? Its a simple question. Why have you avoided answering it?
Of course, I believe in facts.

I await your evidence.
You either haven't understood the question (stupid), or have again dodged it (dishonest).
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: samuel Untermeyer - origins of a myth, call for a war!

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Stop playing games and provide evidence for your claim.
"Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart. The really great men must, I think, have great sadness on earth." - Fyodor Dostoevsky

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Re: samuel Untermeyer - origins of a myth, call for a war!

Post by been-there »

.
Anyway... Getting this back on topic after a trollish deviation and obfuscation.

This topic thread is concerned with analysing the truth and accuracy of the claim that a clique of people — unified by their self-identification of belonging to an abstract, worldwide, pan-national elite — were the principle orchestrators of WW2.

Hitler and Churchill — as well as others before them — referred to this group as 'international Jewry' or 'world Jewry'.

Members of this worldwide group of Jews have also referred to themselves when speaking to each other as 'world Jewry'. But they do not like non-Jews referring to them as such, nor to having their activity analysed or investigated. And certainly not criticised.
They have made discussion of their activity a taboo topic. Anyone breaking the taboo is demonised as an anti-semite and compared to a simplified and demonised caricature from WW2 called 'a Nazi'. :ugeek:

Investigation and discussion of their involvement in causing WW2 is off limits. As are the reasons for the NSDAP's increasingly anti-semitic governmental attitude and measures against anyone of Jewish ancestry that were introduced in Germany in the middle to late 1930's. There WERE reasons for those measures, beyond the since enforced explanation that it was purely due to an irrational prejudice. But historians, documentary film-makers, newspapers and educators don't mention these reasons/explanations. In fact ALL people the world over are forbidden from mentioning the actual reasons.
Wilfried Heink wrote:Ernst Nolte, a German historian, who initiated the Historikerstreit (historians dispute) of the late 80s, devotes a whole chapter 'On Revisionism' (Chapter 6) in his debate with Francois Furet, a French historian, published as Fascism and Communism.

Image
Prof Ernst Nolte wrote:“But doesn’t it follow that a historian whose research is focused on anti-Semitism is no more anti-Semitic than a historian who focuses on the American, English or French Revolutions is a revolutionary? One, like the other, is under the same obligation — to approach his subject with detachment, motivated by a desire for objectivity, in no instance content to express hostile remarks, however clear his own conclusions might be.”
Every historian researching German history should have this book on his desk. Looking at German history as presented, detachment or objectivity do not come to mind; it appears to be a collection of consensuses and personal interpretations, emotional nonsense, rather than facts.

https://revblog.codoh.com/2014/05/inter ... #more-2243
. . . . .

Adolf Hitler — Last will and testament:

“Es ist unwahr, dass ich oder irgendjemand anderer in Deutschland den Krieg im Jahre 1939 gewollt haben. Er wurde gewollt und angestiftet ausschliesslich von jenen internationalen Staatsmännern, die entweder jüdischer Herkunft waren oder für jüdische Interessen arbeiteten.

Es werden Jahrhunderte vergehen, aber aus den Ruinen unserer Städte und Kunstdenkmäler wird sich der Hass gegen das letzten Endes verantwortliche Volk immer wieder erneuern, dem wir das alles zu verdan ken haben: dem internationalen Judentum und seinen Helfern.

Ich habe noch drei Tage vor Ausbruch des deutsch-polnischen Krieges dem britischen Botschafter in Berlin eine Lösung der deutsch-polnischen Probleme vorgeschlagen — ähnlich der im Falle des Saargebietes unter internationaler Kontrolle. Auch dieses Angebot kann nicht weggeleugnet werden. Es wurde nur verworfen, weil die massgebenden Kreise der englischen Politik den Krieg wünschten, teils der erhofften Geschäfte wegen, teils getrieben durch eine, vom internationalen Judentum veranstaltete Propaganda”.
. . . . .

TRANSLATION:

“It is untrue that I or anyone else in Germany wanted war in 1939. It was wanted and provoked solely by international statesmen either of Jewish origin or working for Jewish interests.

I have made too many offers for the limitation and control of armaments, which posterity will not be cowardly enough always to disregard, for responsibility for the outbreak of this war to be placed on me.

Nor have I ever wished that, after the appalling First World War, there would ever be a second against either England or America. Centuries will go by, but from the ruins of our towns and monuments the hatred of those ultimately responsible will always grow anew against the people whom we have to thank for all this: international Jewry and its henchmen.

Only three days before the outbreak of the German-Polish war I proposed a solution of the German-Polish problem to the British Ambassador in Berlin — international control as in the case of the Saar. This offer, too, cannot be lied away. It was only rejected because the ruling clique in England wanted war, partly for commercial reasons and partly because it was influenced by the propaganda put out by international Jewry.”
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: samuel Untermeyer - origins of a myth, call for a war!

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In other words, you have no evidence for your ridiculous claim.

I hope you are having fun copying and pasting Hitler’s words.

You really are a lost cause.
"Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart. The really great men must, I think, have great sadness on earth." - Fyodor Dostoevsky

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Re: samuel Untermeyer - origins of a myth, call for a war!

Post by Nessie »

Sasquatch wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:23 am
In other words, you have no evidence for your ridiculous claim.

I hope you are having fun copying and pasting Hitler’s words.

You really are a lost cause.
Out of curiosity, I did a search and depending on the source there were massacres by Poles on ethnic Germans either before and/or after the Nazis invaded Poland in 1939. The main one after the German invasion is known as Bloody Sunday.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: samuel Untermeyer - origins of a myth, call for a war!

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Nessie wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:00 pm
Out of curiosity, I did a search and depending on the source there were massacres by Poles on ethnic Germans either before and/or after the Nazis invaded Poland in 1939. The main one after the German invasion is known as Bloody Sunday.
Indeed. I was waiting for been-there to use Bloody Sunday as evidence. Goebbels invented the figure of 5,800 and a year later changed it to 58,000.
"Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart. The really great men must, I think, have great sadness on earth." - Fyodor Dostoevsky

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Re: samuel Untermeyer - origins of a myth, call for a war!

Post by been-there »

.
I recently posted this under another topic. And I post it again (with more quotes) without apology as it fits also here, because its a damning and contemporary 1930's quote from a Jewish Rabbi that supports the thesis of this topic thread.

The American Jew and Rabbi strikes me as having a great many ideas that make me seriously question his grip on reality. Plus his viewpoint seems infected with the rampant anti-German Jewish propaganda that the Polish ambassador reported on at the time.

Consequently I have selected only those views of his that have a bearing on the subject of this topic-thread which since the end of WW2 has been strictly taboo, viz. the involvement of Jews worldwide in a war against Hitler and Germany beginning in 1933.
Plus the apparently commonly held view among Jews of the time — shared and articulated by Albert Einstein and Samuel Untermeyer to name just two others — that "the Jews" were “the aristocrats of the world”

Image

And here's a seldom repeated admission from a Jewish paid-for and economically indebted stooge:

Image

This is all being exposed and circulated today thanks to the internet breaking the complete stranglehold on free-access to information that publishing houses, media companies and the TV and film undustry previously exerted.

Rabbi Harry Waton was a prodigious writer and he admitted much that is today denied and falsely discredited as an ‘anti-semitic hate trope’. The following admissions coming from him disproves that Orwellian smear. And keep in mind that this was published five months before — according to the British PM — international Jews and America forced Britain to declare war against Germany. The following was published in March of 1939.

From: A PROGRAM FOR THE JEWS. Dated: Belle Harbor, New York, March 28th 1939. By Harry Waton.
Harry Waton wrote:“When the Jews declared war against Nazi Germany and fascism, I saw that that was a suicidal policy...”... [pg.8]
Harry Waton wrote:The Jews declared war against Nazi Germany, and by means of the boycott they believed that they would destroy the Nazi power in Germany, and would restore Germany to its former state*.” [pg.10]
*Students of history will know what that "former state" is referring to. Mass-poverty, mass-unemployment, starvation, deprivation, increased suicides, increased corruption, and unrepresentative over-dominance in all avenues of economic and institutional life by 'Jews'.
Harry Waton wrote:The Jews are not the only ones involved in this world situation, but the whole human race is involved in it. The Jewish question is really a question for the whole human race. [pg.12]
Harry Waton wrote:“In the life and death struggle between the fascists and the Jews, and the great noise of them that shout with victory and of them that cry from defeat, one voice is not heard that, above all, should have been heard first, and that is the voice of history.” [pg.15]
Harry Waton wrote:“The communists are Marxists, bolshevists, internationalists, Jews, enemies of the Aryans and their culture; Soviet Russia is ruled by Jews.” [pg.22]
Harry Waton wrote:“...anti-Semitism is not an essential characteristic of fascism. The proof of this is Italy. Until recently, Fascist Italy was not anti-Semitic. It became recently anti-Semitic, first, because the Jews carried out a world struggle against the fascists; and, secondly, because Italy became an ally of Nazi Germany.” [pg.37]
Harry Waton wrote:for what can the Jews fight? The Jews have no country, they have no economic and political position in the world, they have no government of their own, and they have no institutions of their own. All that the Jews can fight for is private capitalism and a dying democracy. [pg.38]
Harry Waton wrote:By carrying on a war against Nazi Germany and fascism, the Jews aggravated the situation for themselves and for this they must suffer
Harry Waton wrote:the Jews furnish a concrete illustration of nationalism identified with internationalism. The Jews are true nationalists and true internationalists. The Jews are internationalists, because they live everywhere, because they lived everywhere, because they are acquainted with all nations, all cultures, all languages and all religions. At the same time they are intense nationalists. They are nationalists in a double sense. On the one hand, they love the country in which they live, and identify themselves with the nation of the country. Let the anti-Semites say what they please, the Jews love the country and the people where and among whom they live. But at the same time the Jews are also nationalists as Jews. The Jews all over the world, no matter where they live, what language they speak, what mode of life they have, and what customs they follow — all Jews are identified with one another as one people. [pg.80]
Harry Waton wrote:In truth, we can say with Nietsche that the Jews are the highest aristocrats in the world. [pg.154]
Harry Waton wrote:We saw before that the Jews are the highest cultured people, and now we see that the Jews are the highest aristocrats. [pg.162]
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: samuel Untermeyer - origins of a myth, call for a war!

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I'm not going to bother checking whether every single quote is sourced. However, the alleged Churchill quote struck me as dubious.

As I expected, the quote is a fake.
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com has a record of parliamentary proceedings from 1803 to 2005. The only 2 records for the words slaughtered wrong pig in 1946 were to do with pigs being placed in a mosque in India and a debate on farming in the UK.

A search for the phrase "slaughtered the wrong pig" turns up no references.

Searching for use of the word "pig" by Churchill turns up only 3 post war references, all to "pig iron".
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 4&t=179239
Mr. Richard Langworth of the Churchill Centre has now replied. According to him there were no hits for "Germany's unforgivable crime" or "create her own
exchange mechanism" in their 13 million word digital file of Churchill's written and spoken words. He also told me that the "wrong pig" quote also seems like a misquote.

Best regards/ Daniel
https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=93082

Do you have any proof that the quote is genuine?
"Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart. The really great men must, I think, have great sadness on earth." - Fyodor Dostoevsky

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Re: samuel Untermeyer - origins of a myth, call for a war!

Post by been-there »

Image

I agree, I also thought the Churchill quote seemed dubious.
I also thought the same initially concerning the Rabbi Harry Waton quote.
Sasquatch wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:28 am
I'm not going to bother checking whether every single quote is sourced. However, the alleged Churchill quote struck me as dubious.
I invite you to question why?
1. Why would you think the Churchill quote admitting Germany was fought against due to world-economic reasons is "dubious"?
2. Why wouldn't you be interested to check the sources that ARE referenced of Rabbi Paton admitting "the Jews" started the world war against Germany?
Could it be to do with 'confirmation bias'? :ugeek:

Sasquatch wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:28 am
As I expected, the quote is a fake.
Think about it. It would seem that you are only looking for evidence that fits with what you already believe. I.e. You suspected the quote was fake because it doesn't fit with your belief system. Then you looked for a source that told you it was fake. Then when you found one, you just accepted it as true without checking it. So this again looks like 'confirmation bias' in operation.

Image
Sasquatch wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:28 am
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com has a record of parliamentary proceedings from 1803 to 2005. The only 2 records for the words slaughtered wrong pig in 1946 were to do with pigs being placed in a mosque in India and a debate on farming in the UK.
A search for the phrase "slaughtered the wrong pig" turns up no references.
Searching for use of the word "pig" by Churchill turns up only 3 post war references, all to "pig iron".
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 4&t=179239
Mr. Richard Langworth of the Churchill Centre has now replied. According to him there were no hits for "Germany's unforgivable crime" or "create her own exchange mechanism" in their 13 million word digital file of Churchill's written and spoken words. He also told me that the "wrong pig" quote also seems like a misquote.
https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=93082

Do you have any proof that the quote is genuine?
Now there is no doubt. Definitely confirmation bias in operation.
Because firstly, who said this was uttered in Parliament? :roll:

And secondly, in the same discussion that you linked to, there is this that you have ignored:
"It is clear to me now that we have slaughtered the wrong pig".
In the news journal The New Statesman and Nation, volume 35, page 373, dated 28th August 1948.
It alludes to Churchill's touring bombed-out German cities in 1945.
Can you learn from this? Are you willing to try a different approach?
Instead of ONLY looking for information that fits the victor-propaganda conditioning that we have ALL been subjected to since childhood, instead try the empirical approach of attempting to falsify our beliefs.

Here is what I suggest you just did. You wanted this to be fake, and so looked for evidence that said it was fake. And you even ignored evidence that didn't support your belief-system. Once you found 'evidence' that fitted what you wanted to find, you stopped looking further.

Reality is more important and more useful than our beliefs. Do you agree?

The image-quote — like much on the internet — is sloppily repeating something. Sure its sloppy, so doubting it is good, if your 'doubting' is consistently and impartially applied.
The question we SHOULD be asking is whether Churchill really did express something like this. We SHOULD NOT just be asking whether its in the parliamentary record, or whether a biased body dedicated to lionising the man includes it in its archive.
Try thinking more objectively, more logically, more scientifically. Less partisanly.

The reality then is seen to be that the internet-meme/image-quote appears to be based on two different, genuine, and verifiable, sources but just worded innaccurately and given a wrong date.

A source for the 'wrong butchered pig' expression I have given you above.
The "Germany's unforgivable crime" apparently is from a conversation with Lord Boothby:
"Germany's unforgivable crime before the second world war," Churchill said “was her attempt to extricate her economic power from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit."
-- Churchill to Lord Robert Boothby,
quoted in the Foreword, 2nd Ed. Sydney Rogerson, Propaganda in the Next War 2001, orig. 1938.
Are you prepared to check these citations?
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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