At last! The long-awaited Lodz thread

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Re: At last! The long-awaited Lodz thread

Post by rollo the ganger » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:16 pm

Quotes from Dawid Sierakowiak, Lodz ghetto:
“They eat better in the ghetto than my family did before the war,”
They say they have brought a lot of food with them, but the Jewish police stole it from them. In any case, they’ve been treated like cattle.
They even had a contemporary Bernie Maddoff in Lodz during the war. He was a Jewish Policeman named Hercberg. No wonder Jews went starving:
On the next day, Friday, March 13 Hercberg was released: after a few hours he was again brought to the German criminal police’s branch office on Koscielna Street.

The ghetto was almost immediately aware that searches had been conducted in Hercberg’s apartments, of which he possessed as many as three (at 9 Drukarska Street, on Czarniecki Street across from the Central Prison and in Marysin), and had yielded fantastic results.

As people in the ghetto put it, a regular subsection of the Department of Food Supply was discovered in his apartments. People said – and this seems to be entirely well-founded – that he had cached away the following supplies: 70 kilograms of salt bacon, sacks of flour, several dozen kilograms of sugar, candy, and marmalade (he had been in charge of a candy factory in Marysin), an array of liquors of the highest quality, a box of oranges, innumerable canned goods, a few hundred boxes of shoe polish, 40 pickled tongues, a very large stock of toilet soap and so forth.

Whole sets of clothing and linens – for example, three magnificent fur coats and nine pairs of high boots- were found in his apartment and moreover people in the ghetto maintained that more than 20 kilograms of gold in the form of various objects were found there, as well as a large amount of valuable jewellery, including some genuine stones.

Apparently the most valuable items were found concealed in loaves of bread. It is not hard to guess the source of this lurid booty…..

The raids and night searches evidently provided him with far-reaching opportunities to commit crimes that harmed not only the parties involved, but first and foremost, the populace of the ghetto for whose use the confiscated goods should have been employed.

In addition, according to rumours, which in this case, seem not to be without foundation, over half a million marks in the form of German banknotes were found at Hercberg’s. Where did these astounding sums come from?

Therein lies Hercberg most heinous crime. Out of concern for the fate of the deportees, the Chairman had endeavoured to furnish them with cash for their journey.

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Re: At last! The long-awaited Lodz thread

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:56 pm

Charles Traynor wrote:I suggest Stat Mech and Bernard use their new found spare time to swot up on the Lodz ghetto and Wannsee because if their arguments were backed up with something more than hearsay and speculation for a change they probably wouldn’t feel the need to be constantly disrupting threads.
I suggest you or some other revisionist post something specific and meaningful about Lodz. Then we might have a discussion.

For starters, let's hear what you guys think happened to Jews in Lodz and how the ghetto there fits into been-there's "theory" about the final solution.

Also, what makes you all so reluctant to answer 4 specific and very easy questions about Lodz ghetto?
"the Germans had ample justifiable cause to oppose a minority within their society who worked AGAINST their county's interests" -- been-there, 24 April 2014

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Re: At last! The long-awaited Lodz thread

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:36 am

Been-there wrote that, in his view,
there WAS a policy to resettle all Jews out of central Europe.
He argued that
The Jews of Axis occupied Europe were to be deported to camps in Poland and those that were fit enough would be made to work until after the war. Then when the war was won, they would be deported to some place outside of Europe.
In this view,
The intention, according to the documentation was to "provisionally" transport them [unfit Jews]: first to ghettos in the East then to labour and concentration camps also in the East, prior to a yet-to-be-confirmed, future final resettlement territory. This is stated in both the Wannsee protocol and the Aug 1942 memo of Herr Luther.
Been-there has also alluded to the supposed
POSTPONEMENT of the FINAL resettlement plan till after the war.
In support of his views, been-there quoted the following:
I do not consider the Final Solution to have meant the final solution of the Jewish question through extermination, but rather through post-war expulsion
and
with the exception of the November 30, 1941 transport, the German deportees to the Baltic states were not routinely massacred at all, but were rather consigned to ghettos and work camps.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/clippings/ ... esis2.html

Been-there added that
Unfit German Jews over 65 were to remain in a German ghetto camp at Theresienstadt. Its in the protocol.
This line of argument is riddled with problems. First, there is significant evidence in German documents, as well as from actions on the ground, against these claims, as cited in the Wannsee thread in this forum. Second, been-there throws out key planks of his argument, like "POSTPONEMENT of the FINAL resettlement plan till after the war," without describing when or how such a key decision was made. Third, almost half the Reich and Protectorate Jews deported were sent to Theresienstadt, indeed, but been-there's argument stops there - while these Jews themselves did not stop at Theresienstadt (e.g., Roseman, A Past in Hiding, pages 370-374, 379-391, Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, page 455). Fourth, there is the problem of insinuation masquerading as argument: no matter how hard one tries to make it sound like a complete explanation, it does not explain what became of the Reich and Protectorate Jews to say that those sent to the Baltics were not being massacred systematically in 1941 - because 1) we have the problem of Reich and Protectorate Jews not sent to the Baltics (75%+) and 2) we have the problem of, let's call it, 1943, when many western Jews sent of the Baltics earlier were slaughtered as the ghettos were liquidated.

Leaving these issues to the side for a moment, let's look at how Reich and Protectorate Jews fared in Lodz.

- Just shy of 20,000 were deported to Lodz in fall-winter 1941. (http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/Lodz/statistics.htm, Dobroszycki, The Chronicle of the Lodz Ghetto, page lvii)

- The western Jews in Lodz, for a variety of reasons (middle aged and elderly population, professional and middle class, without contacts in the ghetto), had mortality rates about twice those of local Jews (which themselves were extremely high); by April 1942 nearly over 2,000 of the western Jews shipped to Lodz had died, reducing their number to 17,628. (Trunk, Lodz Ghetto, page 216)

- In May 1942 - contrary to been-there's "thesis" (which has Jews sent to transit ghettos, then labor centers in the East) and contrary to Crowell's implication that western Jews were held throughout this period in ghettos and work camps - the largely non-work-capable population of western Jews in Lodz underwent a major deportation - 10,161 of Reich and Protectorate Jews were deported from the ghetto in Lodz (Trunk, page 237) to Chelmno, a small town 70km from Lodz (Montague, Chelmno and the Holocaust, page 186).

Why, contrary to revisionist claims, were the Germans sending tens of thousands of "unfit" and "un-needed" Jews from the work-camp ghetto Lodz, the 2nd largest ghetto, to Chelmno during early 1942? What happened to these Jews when they reached the destination to which the Germans took them?
"the Germans had ample justifiable cause to oppose a minority within their society who worked AGAINST their county's interests" -- been-there, 24 April 2014

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Re: At last! The long-awaited Lodz thread

Post by rollo the ganger » Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:58 pm

Writings from the Lodz Ghetto:
The arrival of the “Western European Jews in the Lodz ghetto made a considerable impression: six months later, one of the ghetto chroniclers recalled their arrival:

“We were struck by their elegant sports clothes, their exquisite footwear, their furs, the many variously coloured capes the women wore. They often gave the impression of being people on some sort of vacation or, rather, engaged in winter sports, for the majority of them wore ski clothes...

You couldn’t tell there was a war on from the way those people looked; and the fact that, during the bitter cold spells they strolled about in front of the gates to their “transports” and about the city as well, demonstrated most eloquently that their layers of fat afforded them excellent protection from the cold.

Their attitude toward the extremely unsanitary conditions in which they were quartered was one of unusual disgust, though perhaps that was not without justification; they shouted, they were indignant, and beyond the reach of any argument.”

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Re: At last! The long-awaited Lodz thread

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:04 pm

Alternate posting, copy of SE discussion item:

While we wait for been-there or another intrepid revisionist to answer the questions asked about Lodz and Wannsee . . . at Bernard’s (may he accept with a calm heart and without bitterness or agitation the unjust punishment meted out in his case) suggestion here are some thoughts on the place of Lodz ghetto in our discussion of the origins of the final solution:

In The Destruction of the European Jews, Hilberg spelled out the steps in the destruction process as follows: definition, expropriation operations, segregation and concentration into ghettos (formal and informal), and finally annihilation (shooting and gassing phases).

Some readings of Hilberg’s framework are overly didactic and schematic and impute a teleology or intent not present in Hilberg’s use of the “destruction process” framework. This problematic reading pertains to the issue of the ghettos, for which it is sometimes argued that the ghettos were a necessary, planned step for execution. Often, the ghettos are taken as a kind of antechamber for the death camps. In fact, the ghettos played a number of roles and certainly, whilst sometimes they were at the doorstep of the extermination phase, sometimes the ghettos had other functions and roles, less straightforward and not leading directly to Treblinka or a killing field.

Dan Michman published a little book, The Emergence of Jewish Ghettos during the Holocaust, on this problem in 2011, arguing even more broadly that “it has become axiomatic that ghettos were an integral part of Nazi anti-Jewish policy. However, a thorough examination of the extensive source materials . . . reveals that this assumption is based on a fallacy: the central authorities of Nazi Germany never elaborated a clear and unequivocal definition of what a ghetto was or should be. . . . On the contrary, the German documents of the period that were written by officials involved in setting up ghettos propose varying reasons and explanations for their establishment and need – which shows that the officials themselves were not sure about the origins or the idea and its precise purposes.” (Michman, pages 2-3)

With regard to the extermination process, Michman’s point makes perfect sense: rather than ghettos serving as a point in a straight line from definition, despoilment, and segregation to annihilation, the first ghettos were indeed established well before the final solution aimed at the physical extermination of the European Jews. That some ghettos eventually served the purpose of concentration for deportation to extermination camps or other killing sites was a case of retrofitting and adaptation, not an initial intention for the ghettos. (see also introductory essays for The Yad Vashem Encyclopedia of the Ghettos of the Holocaust, especially Michman’s essay, pages xiii-xxxix, and the general introduction by Miron with Shulhani, pages xl-lxiii)

In my view, been-there’s fixation on a single, literal, and exact definition for ghettos supposedly stated in the Wannsee protocol is a pathological form of the malaise which Michman has described. As “road-building” is emblematic for many forms of coerced Jewish labor in the East, so too “so-called transit ghettos” is not exhaustive for the manifold forms and roles which ghettos were to play in the final solution.

Which brings us to Lodz.

The ghetto in Lodz, of course, established winter 1940, fits Michman’s argument very neatly. Lodz itself played a number of roles, and Lodz had commonalities with and differences to other ghettos.

The formation of Lodz ghetto was early in German occupation of the East. Michman takes note of a December 1939 confidential memorandum from Uebelhor in Kalisz district, location of Lodz, to Greiser, Reichsstatthalter of the Warthegau, the Party organization in the district, local German police agencies, and others calling for construction of a closed ghetto for Jews in Lodz. (Michman, pages 79-80) At this time, Uebelhor observed that “the creation of the ghetto is, of course, only a temporary measure. I reserve to myself the decision concerning the times and the means by which the ghetto and with it the city of Lodz will be cleansed of Jews. The final aim must be in any case the total cauterization of this plague spot.” (Isaiah Trunk, Lodz Ghetto, document no. 4, pages 19-21; Michman, page 80) According to Trunk, the original plan called for the ghetto to stand only until 1 October 1940, when Lodz was to be made free of Jews. (Trunk, page 11) Michman says that, whilst the decision to establish the ghetto was indeed made by Uebelhor and implemented from February through May 1940, the decision about the longevity of the ghetto, which was located in the impoverished Baluty section of the city, was not ultimately Uebelhor’s (see below); the duration of the Lodz ghetto arose from unique circumstances in the Warthegau along with the course of competing viewpoints and interests of the RSHA, military, Reich construction agencies, and Warthegau civilian administration.

Michman explains how German concerns about the “Ostjuden peril” (Michman, page 82) - in which hygiene and disease (Uebelhor’s “plague spot”) figured prominently in both the formation and evolution of the ghettos - and in this sense Lodz was both influential and paradigmatic.

Another attribute of Lodz ghetto, however, was not prototypical: the ghetto itself evolved over the course of 1941-1942 into a giant workshop supplying the German war machine with a variety of essential goods. Many ghettos evolved into labor pools and even work-camp-like institutions. But no other ghetto matched Lodz in evolution, scope, and importance of its economic activity. Early German policies toward the ghetto impoverished the Jews there. By July 1942, however, a new, exploitative economy had been developed in the ghetto, with 74 workshops, called ressorts, turning out apparel, including uniforms for the Wehrmacht, footwear, carpets, furniture, telephone equipment, paper bags, and even toys: 90% of production at this time was for the military. (USHMM, Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, Volume II, Part A, page 78; Trunk, pages 152-158) By spring 1942 there were 53,000 Jews working in the ressorts – under crowded, unsafe conditions for 10-14 hours per day – and another 13,000 for the swelling Jewish apparatus managing affairs in the ghetto under German control. By spring 1942 head of the Jewish apparatus, Chaim Rumkowski, could declare that officially that a “new rule has been introduced . . . only working people can stay in the ghetto.” (USHMM, Encyclopedia, page 80; see below for strategy of survival through labor)

At the same time, in contrast to other ghettos – Warsaw comes to mind immediately – Lodz was a closed ghetto (Trunk, document no. 22, page 31) with a very tightly controlled border with the rest of the city; exchange of goods, especially food, was virtually impossible. As a result, malnutrition and starvation progressively weakened the ghetto population. German documents and Jewish diaries and journals attest to this situation, which rendered over time even many working Jews unfit for labor. Lodz had been an industrial city, Poland’s textile center, with a tradition of labor organization and activism. Yet under the force of the German occupation, the strategy adopted by Judenrate head Chaim Rumkowski, the Alteste of the Jews, required a quiescent population, obedient to his rule and focused on productive activity. From the point of view of Rumkowski the key to Jewish survival was complete cooperation with the authorities in running a productive, loyal work-camp. Dissent, strikes or other work stoppages, any form of activism, and even malingering or grousing not only undermined Rumkowski’s “survival through labor” approach but also threatened to provoke the authorities and harsh reprisal measures: thus Rumkowski ruled Lodz ghetto with an iron fist, his method serving both the interest of Jewish survival and the Germans’ plans for the ghetto. (Trunk, documents nos. 26, 27, and 29, pages 62-64)

So Lodz ghetto was established well before the extermination plan had been decided, before even the local killing actions of the German police units in the early days of Barbarossa, and before the Wannsee conference. By the time of the Wannsee conference, the ghetto was proving itself a kind of economic miracle. Local authorities, like Biebow, the Lodz ghetto administrator, and Greiser, governor of the Warthegau, thus developed an interest, if not a stake, in the continued functioning of the ghetto-workshop. Thus, Uebelhor’s “temporary measure” became prolonged, the “plague spot” not going away in 1941, 1942, or even 1943, when many other ghettos were liquidated or reduced to minimal camp-like sites. By 1944, Lodz ghetto had over 100 ressorts employing almost 74,000 Jews, about 85 percent of the ghetto’s total population at that time. (USHMM, Encyclopedia, page 80) During these years, other interests, such as Speer’s economic apparatus and the Wehrmacht, also gained an interest in the prolongation of Lodz’s productive capacity. This economic interest combined the ghetto’s war production and schemes for personal enrichment (in the cases of Uebelhor and Biebow). This interest developed by some authorities was noted by Hoppner in his 16 July 1941 memo to Eichmann when he wrote that “There is an impression that District President Ubelhor does not wish to see the ghetto in Lodz disappear since he seems to profit quite well from it,” adding some financial calculations on how much profit was to be made off Jews (quoted in Montague, Chelmno and the Holocaust, page 37). Biebow, who made the ghetto profitable by early 1942, won out in early debates in his program to keep a permanent labor force, in spite of the deportation/extermination program, in Lodz ghetto.

Yet Lodz’s place in the final solution was not simply that of a persistent sore spot/labor provider. In fact, Jews from Lodz were the first to be gassed in a permanent facility dedicated to extermination operations. Large-scale extermination actions – basically the selection principle instituted at the level of the ghetto and adjacent countryside – took place while the ghetto functioned at its peak productivity as an economic contributor. Finally, in 1944, when the internal differences between Himmler’s “empire” and the alliance of Biebow-Greiser-Speer-Wehrmacht were resolved in favor of the former, the ghetto was liquidated, with a large minority of the inhabitants siphoned off urgently in the end-war emergency, as able-bodied, to work camps across the territory still controlled by the Germans and the majority of the residents of the ghetto shoved into the gas vans at Chelmno or the gas chambers at Birkenau. By war’s end, estimates are that about 10,000 of the 200,000+ Jews who’d lived in Lodz during 1939-1944 survived.

The death camp for the region around Lodz in the Warthegau was initially located in Chelmno, a village in Kolo county and about 60-70km from the city. It is clear that this camp was planned and “opened for extermination” prior to the decision in mid-December 1941 for the European-wide annihilation of the Jews. Chelmno began its murder operations in early December, with a transport of 700 Jews from Kolo. (Montague, Chelmno and the Holocaust, page 185) The camp itself, embracing facilities including “the castle” or mansion in the town of Chelmno on the Ner and a forested killing and burial area in the Rzuchow and Ladorudz forest several km from the town, had been readied, with on-site inspections beginning as early as October 1941 when leaders of Sonderkommando Lange arrived in town to inspect the area and prepare for their work there. (Krakowski, Chelmno: A Small Village in Europe, pages 31-35; Montague, Chelmno and the Holocaust, pages 50-54; Trunk, page 229) The first residents of Lodz to be murdered at Chelmno were from the ghetto’s “Gypsy” camp when 4,300 Roma were killed in the gas vans between 2 January and 9 January 1942. It was during the 4 days just prior to the Wannsee conference that the German killing units at Chelmno exterminated the first 10,000 Jews from Lodz of nearly 70,000 to be gassed there during 1942 (and 77,000 by 1944).

If the initial extermination actions at Chelmno preceded the final solution as it was discussed at the Wannsee conference, then how did these operations come about and what was the point of these December and January murders? To understand what was going on in the Warthegau and Lodz during winter 1941-1942, we need to step back a bit and look at the situation there in summer 1941 and the evolution of Nazi Jewish policy through that fall. In the summer, around the time Barbarossa was launched, the Warthegau faced a min-demographic crisis, with forced “sorting” of population groups there stalled: ethnic Germans meant to be given new homes were stuck in temporary camps; Poles meant to be deported were still in the region for labor purposes; the territorial solution the Jewish problem hadn’t panned out, and Frank was successfully opposing forced resettlement of Jews to the General-Gouvernement (conflict dating back to the 2nd Nahplan in 1940, see Montague, page 33; Peter Longerich, Holocaust, pages 155-159; Phillip T. Rutherford, Prelude to the Final Solution: The Nazi Program for Deporting Ethnic Poles, 1939-1941, pages 113-117, 130-136). Greiser’s charge was to make his region a “model Gau,” demonstrating in a region where 90% of the population were Poles or Jews (Montague, page 32) the benefits of aggressive Germanization. Party leaders in the Warthegau themselves were impatient with the failed resettlement efforts; they wanted the Jews out of their areas, just as Gauleiter in Germany were pressuring Hitler back home to expel Jews from the Reich.

It was in this context that Hoppner, a man described by Browning as “the chief ethnic cleanser in the Warthegau,” wrote the memorandum on the Gau’s demographic problem (so kindly quoted by been-there, although there is that pesky word “allegedly” introducing the memo but also the conclusion that the “alleged” memo cannot refer to “systematic extermination” – which causes me to think that Il Re de Convoluzione doth protest too much). Hoppner prefaced his survey of options for dealing with the Jewish problem with the note to Eichmann that “These things sound in part fantastic, but in my view are thoroughly feasible,” referring, most likely, to the option to “finish off those of the Jews who are not employable by means of some quick-acting device.” (Montague, page 37) Here we can see, at the onset of the final solution, before the Wannsee meeting, one possible solution to the “problem” of “unfit” Jews, or those not needed for labor – finishing them off, the solution adopted by the time of the Wannsee deliberations but unstated in the protocol. Also discussed among those at the Wannsee conferences was the idea Hoppner presented in his fifth point, sterilization. But mass murder of the “unfit” Jews was not yet Reich policy, nor was sterilization of course.

Greiser, according to Hoppner, had by mid-July “not yet voiced an opinion on this matter,” yet, as noted above, the policy of murder might expect opposition from Ueblhor. (Montague, page 37) Around this time, Greiser interrupted a trip during which he met with leaders across the Warthegau. Why? To meet with Hitler, a meeting he described two days after it took place in these terms: Hitler, Greiser said, in their discussion of Germanization of the Gau, had told him that he had “at [his] disposal much greater powers than [NSDAP leaders in] other Reich areas.” (Epstein, page 183) By September, however, the radicalization of Jewish policy within the Reich was complicating the situation that Greiser faced in his Gau. On 18 September 1941, Greiser was sent a telegram by Himmler, who delegated the details of the following proposal to Heydrich: “The Fuhrer would like the Altreich and the Protectorate from the West to the East [a phrase picked up in the Wannsee protocol, in a slightly different context, of course to be emptied and liberated of Jews as soon as possible. I am therefore trying - hopefully still in this year - to transport the Jews of the Altreich and those from the Protectorate - at least as a first stage - into the Eastern territories, which had been acquired two years earlier [e.g., Greiser’s domain]; this is in order to push them further East in the coming spring. I intend to place about 60,000 Jews of the Altreich and the Protectorate in the Litzmannstadt [Lodz] ghetto, which I understand has enough room to accommodate them, for the winter. (http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/defense/pl1/16.html, see also Epstein pages 184-185) With Lodz ghetto authorities opposing any actions sending Jews into Lodz ghetto, a position alluded to in an October document quoted by Il Re de Convoluzione, Greiser managed to get Himmler to reduce the number from 60,000 to just 20,000, along with 5,000 Roma.

This is where the correspondence so badly mangled by Il Re de Convoluzione, in his attempt to negate the final solution, becomes significant: In late October Greiser wrote Himmler about prior approval, given by Himmler and Heydrich, for “The operation of special treatment of some 100,000 Jews in my governmental area.” According to Epstein, this wording, which has Himmler approving a request, indicates that the initiative for the “operation of special treatment of some 100,000 Jews” in the Warthegau was a local initiative, a proposal made by Greiser regarding Jews in his region being okayed by the RFSS (see also Montague, page 34). In July and again in August 1941, Uebelhor told Lodz district officials that efforts to “insettle” sick Jews to Lodz were discontinued, explaining to them Greiser had ordered sick Jews be left where they were (presumably these sick Jews were to left in place to await planned extermination actions). (Montague, page 35) On 9 December, the day after the first murder action at Chelmno, Epstein continues, a conversation consistent with Greiser’s taking initiative was picked up by an air-force listening post: Uebelhor told the Lodz state police office that “on the orders of the Gauleiter [Greiser] those sick in the ghetto were to be brought away” but “an evasive answer was given” when Uebelhor was asked if Berlin had been notified (air-force listening post pickup of conversation, in Epstein, page 185) Eichmann’s trial testimony seems to confirm the views of Epstein and Montague: “this is what Greiser did - for those from Litzmannstadt who were unable to work to be killed. Section IVB4 had nothing to do with that.” (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eic ... 94-01.html)

The purpose of the murders that began at Chlemno in December 1941, then, was two-fold: to "make room" for western Jews being deported into the Warthegau, to get rid of Jews who could not be used for coerced labor. The decision was a local decision, requested by Greiser to deal with "his" problems and approved by Himmler for the Warthegau, in summer-fall 1941, before the European-wide extermination program was decided. It was part of the escalation in Jewish policy taking place after Barbarossa and including the eastern campaigns of the police units, which by August 1941 were targeting all Jews in regions of the occupied USSR.

Montague places Greiser’s decision, based on approval from the RFSS, for extermination of a large number of Warthegau Jews (about 400,000 Jews lived in Greiser’s domain when the Warthegau was formed), sometime between mid-July, when Hoppner made his proposals, and September 1941 (when mass executions of Jews in the Gau first took place, see Trunk, pages 229-230, for execution action against Konin Jews in Kazimierzow forest) – “probably closer to the former than the latter date.” In late September, Mehlhorn (an official in Greiser’s administration in Poznan was appointed lead for resolving “all issues necessary connected with accommodating and employing the Jews and Gypsies of the Wartheland.” (Montague, page 35; see also Trunk, page 229, placing Greiser’s “decision for physical mass extermination” a bit later, “no later than October 1941,” page 229) Also at Greiser’s disposal was Sonderkommando Lange, mentioned above, which would take up residence at Chelmno in late fall 1941, after more than a year of action carrying out murders, by gas and shooting, of mental patients across the Warthegau as part of the “euthanasia program” (this work is covered extensively in Montague, briefly in Krakowski). To SK Lange Greiser’s men attached troops from an Orpo unit commanded by Willi Lenz, who would oversee the forest camp. (Krakowski, page 23; Montague, pages 52-52)

What of the deportees from the Reich, Vienna, the Protectorate, and Luxemburg? Egged on by his Gauleiter, especially Goebbels in Berlin, Hitler made his decision in favor of deporting Reich Jews on 17 September 1941. (Christopher Browning, The Origins of the Final Solution, pages 375; Montague, page 39) While the decision to deport the Jews was welcomed by Nazi leaders in the Reich, it would cause consternation and confusion in the “reception areas,” which included Minsk, Riga, Kovno, and, of course, Lodz. Indeed, as to the reception of the deported Jews and Roma from the West, Lodz authorities were displeased. Nonetheless, between mid-October and early November 1941, 19,837 Jews from various cities in the Altreich, Prague, Vienna, and Luxemburg were deported to Lodz ghetto. (Epstein, page 187, Browning, Origins, pages 375-398; Beate Meyer, A Fatal Balancing Act, pages 107-221, Hilberg, Destruction, pages 433-500; Longerich, Holocaust, pages 286-288, 297-300, 308, 428) Epstein believes, in contrast to Browning but in line with what we’ve argued concerning the Wannsee meeting, that in fall 1941 the western Jews in Lodz were “expressly excluded from” (page 189) the initial gassing actions at Chelmno, which, commencing on 8 December 1941, continued with very few pauses until August 1942. (Epstein, page 389, where Epstein nevertheless questions Gerlach’s thesis in that western Jews in Lodz ghetto were not murdered until May 1942)

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Part II under construction: the arrival and situation of the Reich and Protectorate deportees in Lodz, fall-winter 1941-1942; Rumkowski’s iron rule and issues in the ghetto during this period; the selection principle (those not needed for work, mischief makers, etc.) and the early deportations out of Lodz ghetto; where the deportees from Lodz were sent – Chelmno; the deportations to Chelmno and the Wannsee protocol; what the deportations out and the selection principle say about been-there’s attempt to articulate a revisionist case and il caso del Re di Convoluzione; the fate of the Germans in the ghetto by spring-summer 1942; the Germans taken to Chelmno

Questions and comments welcome as we pause for a bit!
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"the Germans had ample justifiable cause to oppose a minority within their society who worked AGAINST their county's interests" -- been-there, 24 April 2014

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Re: At last! The long-awaited Lodz thread

Post by rollo the ganger » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:33 pm

Questions and comments welcome as we pause for a bit!
Zzzzzz..... Huh? Did the buffoon say something?

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Re: At last! The long-awaited Lodz thread

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:33 am

Let's pause, trying to block out the unpleasant sound made by the drooling incompetent who keeps trying to interrupt non-discussion with been-there, and let's take note of the ongoing spectacle - train-wreck? - of been-there refusing to explain his view of what happened to Jews in Lodz.

Been-there not only knows of Lodz (although he has since corrected any misunderstanding he may have created to clarify that by stating he knows of Lodz, he meant that he once met one person who survived Lodz ghetto and gave a talk about his time there, the only apparent knowledge been-there gained from this meeting being that someone had survived Lodz); been-there also knows of the Nazi's actions in 1942 enough to confirm that the final solution, which was discussed at the Wannsee conference, was simply about relocating Jews temporarily to the East, putting the fit to work there, and then "releasing" them to someplace after the war.

Despite his expertise in these matters, been-there has chosen to stay mum on what happened in Lodz and to squirm and wriggle about his views on Lodz ghetto. From time to time, he likes to say that his evasive and confusing statements have been misinterpreted, I will grant him that. As a result of been-there's reticence, nonetheless, we remain without his revisionist answers to questions like these:

- did approximately 160,000 Jews lived in Lodz ghetto at the end of 1941? 
- by the end of 1942, were there fewer than 90,000 Jews living in Lodz ghetto? 
- did the Germans during 1942 conduct several large deportation actions in Lodz ghetto - in January, February, March, May, and September? 
- can been-there explain why the Germans were resettling Jews from a work-camp ghetto during the war and where they were sending them? 
- when the Germans were deporting Jews from the Reich, why should it be unexpected or in anyway problematic that local authorities had to organize departures and then local authorities in the East had to receive and deal with these deportees? 
- how were the German, Austrian, and Czech Jews who were deported to Lodz during fall 1941 treated on their arrival in the ghetto and what conditions did they endure there? 
- what became in 1942 of most of the German, Austrian, and Czech Jews who'd been deported to Lodz during fall 1941? 
- what does been-there make of the events of May 1942 in Lodz and how do those events square with his "thesis"? 
- what are instances in which the term “special treatment” was used for the fall deportations of Jews from Germany, Austria, and the Protectorate? 
- will been-there summarize his evidence for thousands of Jews being sent to a transit camp at Chelmno and then onwards from there to someplace else? 
- what was the typical duration of Jews' stays in this supposed transit camp at Chelmno? 
- what transportation records exist showing that Jews were deported onward from Chelmno? 
- what were the layout and facilities of the camp at Chelmno
- how were the transports from the camp organized and staged?
- what was the size of accommodations at Chelmno, and what provisions were made for deportees who arrived there?
- how do eyewitnesses describe the accommodations and activities at the supposed "transit camp Chelmno"?
- what was the staffing of “transit camp Chelmno”?
- if tens of thousands of Jews were not sent from Lodz to Chelmno during 1942, where were they sent, and what are the records/evidence for where they went?

The questions accumulate. In another thread, been-there pondered, and lied to himself, about what denial might be. Here, through non-engagement, been-there seems to be defining revisionism as the movement that has nothing to say or is afraid of its own shadow.
"the Germans had ample justifiable cause to oppose a minority within their society who worked AGAINST their county's interests" -- been-there, 24 April 2014

rollo the ganger
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Re: At last! The long-awaited Lodz thread

Post by rollo the ganger » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:03 pm

It's obvious that, even though SM has me and maybe half the people who don't subscribe to his beliefs on ignore, SM is reading our posts. From that fact it is also obvious SM is directing his questions specifically to Been-There so why does he keep appealing to "revisionists" (plural) to answer his accumulating list of stupid questions. I have a question for SM: if he's so learned about these matters why doesn't he give us ANSWERS rather than questions? The answer to that question: SM doesn't know. Statistical Mechanic, the wannabee mail order holocaust scholar.


“They eat better in the ghetto than my family did before the war,”

"They say they have brought a lot of food with them, but the Jewish police stole it from them. In any case, they’ve been treated like cattle."

Dawid Sierakowiak, Lodz ghetto
Last edited by rollo the ganger on Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

rollo the ganger
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Re: At last! The long-awaited Lodz thread

Post by rollo the ganger » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:19 pm

Oh silly ME! Now I get it. The furry fraud is taking a mail order holocaust class and is looking for others to answer the homework questions for him. It's obvious his questions are essay questions from some holocaust lesson plan. What a sneaky, lazy fraud. I've seen enough of those sneaks in my academic days that I should have spotted it immediately. But then again, it has been a long time since my academic days. It's also a veiled compliment to Been-There that SM (Sneaky Mole?) is trying to get him, and him specifically, to answer his essay questions for him.

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Statistical Mechanic
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Re: At last! The long-awaited Lodz thread

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:01 pm

It appears that to answer straightforward and factual questions about Lodz ghetto and Chelmno is so damaging to revisionist postulates that been-there and Charles Traynor continue to think better of doing so. No worries: whilst revisionists show their cowardice and ignorance, we will continue to explain what happened in Lodz in 1942 and in so doing we will clear up the confusion created by Il Re di Convoluzione, explain further how the events in Lodz and at Chelmno relate to the Wannsee conference, and spell out answers to all the questions the revisionists are dodging here.
"the Germans had ample justifiable cause to oppose a minority within their society who worked AGAINST their county's interests" -- been-there, 24 April 2014

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