Charles Traynor wrote:
If you want to see physical evidence, look up the HC blogs collected under the labels "graves"
. There you'll find reports about forensic and archaeological investigations and lots of photographs or film stills showing people murdered in one way or the other by your Nazi heroes, many of them contextualized with evidence on which the authors of such forensic or archaeological reports, photographs or film footage could have had no influence.
Those graves and photographs you like publicizing prove nothing.
The infantile knee-jerk response of a blind fanatic.
Charles Traynor wrote:[In a time of war people die, and unfortunately for you, the Soviets were rather too good at producing this type of atrocity propaganda.
That's why reports and photographs or films of Soviet provenance are checked against evidence independent of the Soviets whenever possible, as I did in several of the blogs linked to.
Charles Traynor wrote:We have absolutely no idea how those people died and it is just wishful thinking on your part that Germans were somehow responsible for their deaths.
Actually we know from both Soviet - controlled evidence and evidence independent of the Soviets that your Nazi heroes did the killing.
Example, from the blog The Atrocities committed by German-Fascists in the USSR (1)
Kerch is a city on the Kerch Peninsula of eastern Crimea. During World War II it was taken by the Germans in November 1941, recaptured by the Red Army at the end of December 1941, again occupied by the German in May 1942 and finally retaken by the Soviets in April 1944. On 6 January 1942 the Soviet news agency Tass reported that the Germans had massacred nearly 7,000 Russians during their (first) occupation of Kerch. Molotov’s Note on German Atrocities in Occupied Soviet Territory dated 6 January 1942 mentioned that
According to preliminary figures, about 7,000 persons were killed by the German fascist bandits in Kerch.
The following is my translation of Andrej Angrick’s description of a mass execution of Kerch Jews in early December 1941 (Angrick, Einsatzgruppe D, pp. 356-358).
In the usual manner Sonderkommando (Sk) 10b took over the prison, in order to turn it into a collection point for the Jews until their execution. This time the special detachment was under time pressure, as the [Wehrmacht] local headquarters already reported to the Army Rear Area Commander that the liquidation of the Jews would be »carried out at an accelerated pace due to precarious food situation in the city«, although at this time not even the registration had been completed. The local headquarters acted on the assumption that of the 50,000 people remaining in the city 15 per cent were Jews, i.e. that it would soon have to feed 7,500 people less. On the first three days of December the »resettlement« of 2,500 Jews was carried out, the rest remained in hiding as it had meanwhile been informed about the task of Ohlendorf's flying detachment. The murder of 2,500 people could barely be carried out by the small partial detachment on its own. Additionally the partial detachment commander Finger seems to have been close to a nervous breakdown. But the local headquarters in this situation did not deny the special detachment its assistance. It undertook not only to organize the transport of the Jews and the execution site’s sealing-off, but also to make available additional marksmen (who probably belonged to the 46th Division). Ammunition for the execution also came from the Wehrmacht; big boxes stood near the anti-tank ditch, and every marksman could get what he needed, regardless of where he shot with a rifle or a machine pistol. During a joint dinner with members of the 46th Infantry Division Finger had furthermore on his own initiative invited a Wehrmacht soldier, telling him that if he had »good nerves« he could come to the execution site to see how some »2,000 Jews are shot«. Despite the decree that forbade Wehrmacht soldiers to enter the execution site this man got on his way following Finger’s invitation, as he wanted to make certain whether »actually such large number of Jews« would be killed. At a temperature of minus 20 degrees trucks brought the victims to the execution site, where auxiliaries – so-called Hiwis - spurred them on with clubs. At the collection point the prisoners were deprived of money, watches and other valuables, their upper clothes were torn off their bodies, and particularly pretty children's shoes were also taken away from them. Offside the place where the trucks stopped there were large heaps of clothes, furs, children's shoes, caps and watches. Some of the people, who already guessed what would happen, started to wail, the older ones put their hands together and looked up to the sky.
Meanwhile sufficient food for the marksmen had been brought to the anti-tank ditch, as the killing would last long. The other partial detachment commander, Siegfried Schuchart, who was present himself on the third day at the latest, had furthermore taken care that winter clothing and warm drinks (including mulled wine) were available for the marksmen. Sk 10b have never before carried out an execution of this magnitude. For all participants this was a new quality of crime, but also an »enormous burden«, so that the partial detachment command did everything to make murdering as easy as possible for the marksmen. The victims were brought on in two separate groups, the men in one, the women and children in the other. Yet the murderers "granted" exceptions. Among the women there was an elder overweight man, who was being dragged to the execution site supported by two youngsters. Once they arrived at the anti-tank ditch the victims had to run into it and stand against the steep wall, the marksmen standing above them. Then everything went very fast, there was a "crack" and "the people lay on the ground". A "better" family, which was also allowed to stay together, instilled respect even into the guards. The man shortly spoke with one of the marksmen. At the moment when he embraced his wife with the small child on her arm they were shot together – perhaps as he had wished. Smaller children were »overlooked« again and again; not understanding what was happening they dragged themselves out from underneath the heaps of corpses, looked around frightened and crawled over the dead. If a marksman saw on of these children, he stepped into the ditch, held his weapon’s muzzle against the child’s neck and pulled the trigger. Many of the victims spoke German. One man contemptuously shouted at the marksmen: »If you shoot, aim well. Heil Hitler.« […]
The local headquarters, in its activity report of 7 December to its superior authority, euphemistically called the murder »resettlement« - the original term »annihilation« (Vernichtung) had been crossed out – and obviously considered the »operation« a success. However, what was meant by »resettlement« and what local headquarters expected the Kerch partial detachment of Sk 10b to do in the near future already became clear from the next sentence, in which it the following was unmistakably stated: »One must expect additional executions as a part of the Jewish population fled, is in hiding and must first be apprehended.«
Evidence from the German side, assessed by West German criminal justice authorities and by Angrick, essentially confirms the Soviet reports about the Kerch massacre. The Soviets may have overestimated the number of victims, but there can be no doubt that the Nazis bumped off several thousand Jews on the Kerch peninsula and that the Soviet footage from which I took the above stills shows people murdered by the Nazis.
Examples, from the blog The Atrocities committed by German-Fascists in the USSR (2)
Angrick describes the massacre committed by Sonderkommando 10a in the Petrushino Gully in October 1941 as follows (Einsatzgruppe D, pp. 315-17, my translation):
Here there was a repetition of the events at Mariupol. After the conquest the Jewish population was informed that from now on it had to wear armbands with a six-point yellow star. Who didn't comply with this order was to be shot. The command of SK 10a established that preparations for the »evacuation« would have to be completed on 25 October 1942, as the destruction of Taganrog’s Jewish community had been set for 26 October 1941. Following the call by city commandant Major Averdunk from Local Headquarters I (V) 253, about 1,800 people gathered on this day at Vladimir Square in School No. 26, where they had to hand over food and valuables. The people were then taken under guard to the Petrushina-Balka, an S-shaped depression in the ground with steep slopes near the church village Petrushino. The execution went smoothly for the perpetrators – most of them had already gained sufficient experience -, and the new leadership personnel, which had arrived instead of the Leading Service candidates relieved in Mariupol, was immediately integrated and »put to work assiduously«. All tasks had already been distributed accordingly in the morning. A group of Sk 10a took care of transporting the people to the Balka. The old and sick, recorded on lists – among them the members of the Jewish Council – were dragged from their houses and forced into the trucks. The bulk of the community, on the other hand, had to make the way on foot. The village's peasants had at the same time been gathered in the village center and placed under guard, as the perpetrators had determined that they should bury the murdered after the execution. The entire complex of the Petrushina-Balka was sealed off by members of the Leibstandarte. Sepp Dietrich supported Seetzen in Taganrog as best as he could – and he would also do this in the future. The course of events shows that units of the Waffen-SS could simultaneously act as experienced army frontline troops and as members of Himmler's order at the same site, without this leading to a contradiction. In the view of the SS this combination even was what made the image of the typical SS-man in the east. The victims were taken in columns of 100 into the Balka or to additional pits.
»In a show of phony humanity Sonderkommando leader Obersturmführer Seetzen allowed the death candidates to die familywise, which indeed happened during the executions. I saw myself how entire families went to their death; in front the fathers with the elder children by the hand, thereafter the mother with a small child in her arms. In such cases Seetzen asked: "Is that the whole family? Ok, ok, continue!"«
After the shooting the inhabitants of Petrushino buried 1,800 people, while a group led by Dr. Görz searched that clothes that had been collected. Although the number of Jews murdered in Taganrog was much smaller than in the city of Mariupol, the perpetrators expressed their satisfaction as the number of looted jewels as well as gold and valuable objects far exceeded that of the Mariupol execution. Near the Balka they set up a signboard with the inscription: »No trespassing. Otherwise you will be shot!«
The majority of the population of Taganrog, like that of Mariupol, showed no sorrow, expressed no rage or secret criticism. Instead the »special measures against Jews« had been calmly accepted, not least because many inhabitants hoped to get a part of the »Jewish inheritance«. The administration group of Field Headquarter 538 gained the impression that not only the »rabble«, but also many people who had fallen into need due to the war »tried to obtain objects left by the Jews«. The Einsatzgruppe could now also report Taganrog als »free of Jews«, while the city’s inhabitants were told that the Jews had been taken for work to Mariupol.
Again, Angrick's description is based on West German judicial records, which the Soviets couldn't possibly have influenced. So no, the Soviets didn't lie about the massacres in the Petrushino Gully near Taganrog.
Kremenets and Vishnevets are two cities in the Ternopil Oblast of western Ukraine. Vishnevets had a prewar Jewish population of about 5,000, of which only ninety-three survived in camps in Germany. The Jewish population of Kremenets was wiped out in August 1942 A German report dated 15.08.1942 mentions the killing of 13,802 Jews in the Kremenets (Kremianez) area (Gerlach, Kalkulierte Morde, p. 715, fn. 1154; thanks to Jonathan Harrison for pointing out this source).
A German report, mentioned in a 1998 book by a German historian, mentions the massacre that this Soviet footage refers to.
Pekalino seems to be or have been a village in the Minsk region of Belarus. In a thread on the Feldgrau forum, a poster cites a source whereby "The Group of Lepach reached Ebenrode on 10th July while other parts were captured by RA in the area of Minsk-Pekalino on 9th July". A village called Pekaline is also mentioned on a French Wikipedia page about Soviet female sniper Tatiana Baramzina.
If located in Belarus, as these sources suggest, Pekalino was one of the over 600 Belarusan villages that were wiped out together with all their inhabitants. The Khatyn Memorial Complex site provides the following information:
The following figures are further proof to the scale of crimes. The number of annihilated settlements with the inhabitants during punitive operations:
Unrestored Restored Altogether
186 442 628
The number of settlements destroyed together with only part of the inhabitants:
Unrestored Restored Altogether
325 4342 4667
In all: 5295.
Thus, over 5295 settlements were destroyed by fascists together with all or part of inhabitants during punitive action (out of 9200 settlements, burnt and annihilated in Belorussia during the Great Patriotic War). 243 villages were burned down twice, 83 villages thrice and 22 villages were burned down 4 times and more in Vitebsk region. 92 villages were burned down twice, 40 villages thrice, 9 villages four times and 6 villages five and more times were burned in Minsk region.
3% of all 5295 villages were destroyed in 1941. 16% � in 1942. 63% � in 1943. 18% � in 1944.
In Kalklierte Morde, see the translated excerpt in my RODOH post of 5-Jul-2005 10:58, Gerlach mentions that
In the more than 5,000 villages covered by Romanowski more than 147,000 inhabitants died. 627 villages were completely destroyed, and 186 thereof remained wastelands after the war. For comparison: In Lithuania there were 21, in the Ukraine 250 scorched villages.
The German anti-partisan killing sprees in Belarus were not without critics from among high-ranking German. Thus a letter sent by Hinrich Lohse, Reich Commissioner for the Eastern Territories, from Riga on 18.6.1943 (Nuremberg Document 135-R, IMT Vol. XXXVIII, pp. 371 ff.) contains the following observations (my translation):
Also the fight against the bandits it taking forms that give reason for much concern if pacification and exploitation of the various regions is the goal of our policy. Thus the dead banditry suspects, which according to the report dd. 5.6.43 from Operation "Cottbus" number 5,000, could in my opinion with few exceptions have been used for labor service in the Reich.
It shall not be denied that due to communication difficulties and generally in such mopping-up operations it is very hard to tell friend from foe. But it should nevertheless be possible to avoid cruelties and to bury those liquidated. To lock men, women, and children into barns and to set fire to them does not appear to be a suitable method of combating bands, even if it is desired to exterminate the population. This method is not worthy of the German cause and hurts our reputation severely.
In a document discovered by the Western Allies (discussed in more detail here
), Reich Commissioner Hinrich Lohse expressed concern about certain standard operating procedures applied against the local population, such as shown in the Soviet footage from Pekalino (the victims here were not Jews, by the way - CT's heroes also murdered millions of non-Jews
Want some more examples?
Charles Traynor wrote: Roberto wrote:
If something other than mass murder had happened to the at least 2.5 million Jews who disappeared behind the gates of certain camps that all known evidence shows to have been places of mass murder, you would be wading in documentary and eyewitness evidence proving a vast resettlement operation to certain places in the Nazi-occupied territories of the Soviet Union, which evidence the Nazis would have had no reason to conceal let alone destroy, on the contrary. You would be able to overwhelm your critics with names of people who passed through places like Sobibór and Treblinka and were transported from there to final destinations in the Reichskommissariat
Ostland, the Reichskommissariat
Ukraine or the occupied areas of the Soviet Union under German military administration.
But you can provide nothing. Not one single name
of a Jew who was "transited" to the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories via any of the places that history knows as extermination camps.
We do not have to prove anything:
It is part of the Western tradition that in legal, scientific, and intellectual matters that those asserting have the burden of proof, and that those who disagree are not required to provide evidence.
Wow, what a comfortable position you have.
Except, of course, that those asserting that your Nazi heroes committed mass murder (the prosecution, if you will) have met their burden of proof by providing conclusive incriminating eyewitness, documentary, physical and documentary evidence.
Now it's for the true believers who challenge that incriminating evidence (the defense, if you will) to discredit the incriminating evidence, by proving that all eyewitnesses lied for one or the other reason, all incriminating documents and demographic data were manipulated, all physical evidence was planted or deliberately misinterpreted, etc.
The best way true believers could discredit the incriminating evidence, as concerns the extermination camps, would be to provide evidence that the people held to be murdered at those places were not murdered after all but were, as the true believers like to claim, transited via those camps to the Nazi-occupied territories of the Soviet Union.
Charles Traynor wrote:That we are having this conversation 67 years after the end of the war tells me that the exterminationist hypothesis is a no-go.
If so, that speaks volumes about your capacity for wishful thinking. We are having this conversation because you don't want to accept facts inconvenient to your Nazi articles of faith.
Charles Traynor wrote:It also tells me the holocaust is a cult whose followers are made up of some seriously deluded individuals.
If so, that speaks volumes about your tendency for self-projection. It anything can be called a cult whose followers are made up of some seriously deluded individuals, it is "Revisionism".
Charles Traynor wrote: Roberto wrote:
The Yad Vashem database
contains "the names and biographical details of two thirds of the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis and their accomplices"
The Yad Vashem database was discussed on the old RODOH forum and was shown to be highly inaccurate and open to abuse.
What is supposed to have happened on the old RODOH forum is strictly for the birds unless you can reproduce here the arguments made there.
And whatever flaws the Yad Vashem database may have, it still contains 4 million names, which alone means that there's a good chance that a good many of the names were included into the database on the basis of solid research, especially as concerns countries like the Netherlands and the German Federal Republic, whose authorities undertook all possible efforts to establish the fates of Jewish nationals deported by the Nazis.
Charles Traynor wrote: Roberto wrote:
An online database kept by the German Federal Archives contains the names of 149,600 German citizens of Jewish faith or descent who fell victim to Nazi persecution
. I can give you the name, date and place of birth, last place of residence and mostly even the date of deportation for 4,030 German Jews deported to Chełmno/Kulmhof, 293 German Jews deported to Bełżec, 6,123 German Jews deported to Sobibór, 7,850 German Jews deported to Treblinka, 49,545 German Jews deported to Auschwitz, and so on.
The German government had every legal right to deport aliens from within its borders.
A highly questionable proposition (especially as concerns German citizens of Jewish faith or origin, some of whom had bravely fought for Germany in the First World War) and it doesn't get you over the fact that none of those deported persons came back and that the places they were deported to are shown by all available evidence to have been places of mass murder, with no evidence pointing to an alternative scenario.
Charles Traynor wrote:
Roberto wrote:Please correct me if I missed something, but I don't know that Mrs. Hart even testified about her experiences in court or before any criminal investigation authority, and she also isn't mentioned as an eyewitness in any historical study about the Nazi genocide of the Jews that I know about.
Whether you like it or not Kitty Hart and her fellow “survivors” are the public face of the Hoax.
First of all, who cares about this "public face"? I certainly don't. And I wouldn't be surprised if historians also didn't give a damn about her.
And second, what "Hoax"? Who is supposed to have pulled off that "Hoax", by what means, and where's the evidence that there was anything like the monumental "Hoax" of your fantasies?
Charles Traynor wrote:Without them there would be no holocaust and Dr. Terry would be out of the job.
No, without them there would still be the works of Hilberg, Longerich, Pohl and other scholars, there would still be the many NS-crimes judgments by independent West German courts, there would still be the archives of remembrance authorities like Yad Vashem and the USHMM, etc.
And there would still be no evidence accounting otherwise for somewhere between 5 and 6 million Jews missing from Europe's prewar Jewish population at the end of World War II.
In other words, your "exposing" Mrs. Hart doesn't help your "Revisionist" cause at all, except maybe as a publicity act for suckers.
And of course to get you some slaps on the back from your coreligionists.