Katyn burial space versus the Reinhardt camps

Discuss the alleged Nazi genocide or other wartime atrocities without fear of censorship. No bullying of fellow posters is allowed at RODOH. If you can't be civil, please address the argument and not the participants. Do not use disparaging alterations of the user-names of other RODOH posters or their family members. Failure to heed warnings from Moderators will result in a 24 hour ban (or longer if necessary).
Post Reply
friedrichjansson
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 4:43 am
Contact:

Katyn burial space versus the Reinhardt camps

Post by friedrichjansson » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:13 am

Here is a map of the Katyn graves with the main graves highlighted.

Image

The highlighted region has an area of 1.65 hectares. The number of bodies is a little over 4,000. Bodies were buried up to 12 deep.

The entire Treblinka upper camp supposedly had area ~4 hectares. In the story, at least half of that was taken up by barracks, cremation sites, gas chambers, etc., so only 2 hectares were available for burials. With the density with which the NKVD buried bodies, that would be enough for 5,000 bodies. So how could the Germans have buried >700,000 bodies in this area?

The available area gets even smaller when Sturdy Colls' findings are taken into account...

(Another comparison is available here.)

Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Katyn burial space versus the Reinhardt camps

Post by Roberto » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:01 pm

friedrichjansson wrote:Here is a map of the Katyn graves with the main graves highlighted.

Image

The highlighted region has an area of 1.65 hectares. The number of bodies is a little over 4,000. Bodies were buried up to 12 deep.

The entire Treblinka upper camp supposedly had area ~4 hectares. In the story, at least half of that was taken up by barracks, cremation sites, gas chambers, etc., so only 2 hectares were available for burials. With the density with which the NKVD buried bodies, that would be enough for 5,000 bodies. So how could the Germans have buried >700,000 bodies in this area?
A better question would be why on earth it should not have been possible to bury >700,000 bodies in these 2 hectares plus the additional areas mentioned here, considering the factors addressed here.

Let’s assume that the Soviets killed 5,000 Polish POWs at Katyn. The actual number was smaller, but let’s assume it was 5,000. At a concentration of only 4 corpses per cubic meter, these 5,000 corpses could have been buried in a pit with a space of 1,250 m³. Assuming a depth of 4 meters, the area of that pit would have been 312.5 square meters. Let’s make that 350 square meters for good measure. If the Soviets buried the Katyn corpses over an area of 1.65 hectares = 16,500 square meters, they used at least 47 times the area they could have used it they had simply dumped all the bodies into a pit, say, 35 meters long, ten meters wide and 4 meters deep. Maybe they expected dispersal of the graves to make for better concealment of the crime. In any case, it’s stupid to question the feasibility of mass burial at Treblinka by comparing the Treblinka "death camp" sector’s burial area with the area over which the Soviets buried their victims in the Katyn forest.
friedrichjansson wrote:The available area gets even smaller when Sturdy Colls' findings are taken into account...
I presume that FJ means CSC's findings discussed here.
friedrichjansson wrote:(Another comparison is available here.)
Great, then FJ can also answer the question why on earth it should not have been possible to bury about 80,000 corpses (the number buried at Sobibór before they switched to cremation) in the mass graves mentioned here, considering the factors addressed here.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

friedrichjansson
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 4:43 am
Contact:

Re: Katyn burial space versus the Reinhardt camps

Post by friedrichjansson » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:48 am

Don't spam links to your blog without offering any analysis of the topics at hand, Roberto. As you did not address the topic at hand, you deserve no response. The point, however, is that mass burial turns out to be a more difficult problem in practise than mere calculations of areas and volumes might suggest. Katyn offers an example of this, in soil somewhat similar to that of the Reinhardt camps.

Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Katyn burial space versus the Reinhardt camps

Post by Roberto » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:35 am

friedrichjansson wrote:Don't spam links to your blog without offering any analysis of the topics at hand, Roberto. As you did not address the topic at hand, you deserve no response. The point, however, is that mass burial turns out to be a more difficult problem in practise than mere calculations of areas and volumes might suggest. Katyn offers an example of this, in soil somewhat similar to that of the Reinhardt camps.
I guess that's FJ's way of admitting that his Katyn "parallel" is a load of nonsense and no argument against the plausibility of burying much larger numbers of corpses in the related areas of Treblinka and Sobibór. OK, duly noted.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

User avatar
eschoochechooch
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:19 am
Contact:

Re: Katyn burial space versus the Reinhardt camps

Post by eschoochechooch » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:10 am

Roberto wrote:
friedrichjansson wrote:Don't spam links to your blog without offering any analysis of the topics at hand, Roberto. As you did not address the topic at hand, you deserve no response. The point, however, is that mass burial turns out to be a more difficult problem in practise than mere calculations of areas and volumes might suggest. Katyn offers an example of this, in soil somewhat similar to that of the Reinhardt camps.
I guess that's FJ's way of admitting that his Katyn "parallel" is a load of nonsense and no argument against the plausibility of burying much larger numbers of corpses in the related areas of Treblinka and Sobibór. OK, duly noted.

And it is not necessarily corpses because some were used for ashes
"I am on a mission from Allah to enlighten these illuminated types and lucifer told me he wants to bum them"

User avatar
eschoochechooch
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:19 am
Contact:

Re: Katyn burial space versus the Reinhardt camps

Post by eschoochechooch » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:00 am

Both were state secrets, but that is where the similarities end. I don't think any effort was made to destroy the polish soldiers bodies
"I am on a mission from Allah to enlighten these illuminated types and lucifer told me he wants to bum them"

User avatar
eschoochechooch
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:19 am
Contact:

Re: Katyn burial space versus the Reinhardt camps

Post by eschoochechooch » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:10 am

The nazis were quick to use the massacre as propaganda. This is what prompted himmler to alter the way bodies were disposed of and to dig up previous victims
"I am on a mission from Allah to enlighten these illuminated types and lucifer told me he wants to bum them"

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 6 guests