A new video on open air cremation

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friedrichjansson
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A new video on open air cremation

Post by friedrichjansson » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:40 pm

The Holocaust History Channel has released a new video on open air cremation. The orthodox story looks pretty silly when you actually see it drawn out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQsxt9tPVOA

What will the response of the holocaustic bloggers be? Back in the days of "One Third of the Holocaust" they still had enough vigor to make an attempt at a rebuttal, and their associates even produced a sort of video rebuttal. But they've failed to offer a significant response to subsequent revisionist videos. Will they do any better this time, or has anti-revisionism sunk into its final decrepitude?

Here's a picture of a single stack of bodies as allegedly seen on the "roasts" of Treblinka, with the space for the fuel indicated:

Image

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theblackrabbitofinlé
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Re: A new video on open air cremation

Post by theblackrabbitofinlé » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:35 pm

Excellent video Friedrich.
We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsel, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

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Re: A new video on open air cremation

Post by Roberto » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:55 pm

friedrichjansson wrote:The Holocaust History Channel has released a new video on open air cremation. The orthodox story looks pretty silly when you actually see it drawn out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQsxt9tPVOA
So the Soviets claimed that all bodies had been burned because they didn't find enough mass graves? Tell the asshole who made this video (whether it's you or someone else) to look up the blogs labeled photographs and graves.

I also see that the asshole claims that burning corpses on a grate is the worst form of cremation, showing denierbud's lamb on the windy beech (a deliberately stupid arrangement to fool suckers). Tell him to read this and this and this, where he'll also find information about the actual height of the pyre underneath the bodies (part of which was underground, as I deducted from Leleko's description). And tell him to read about the experiments of Dr. Lothes and Dr. Profé, who found that cremating carcasses on a grate over or inside a pit (akin to the methods applied at Treblinka and Sobibór) was the fastest and and most economic way of burning carcasses.
friedrichjansson wrote:What will the response of the holocaustic bloggers be? Back in the days of "One Third of the Holocaust" they still had enough vigor to make an attempt at a rebuttal, and their associates even produced a sort of video rebuttal. But they've failed to offer a significant response to subsequent revisionist videos. Will they do any better this time, or has anti-revisionism sunk into its final decrepitude?
No, it's just that "Revisionism" isn't all about stinking videos, and thrashing the organ grinders as well as providing information about historical facts is more important than addressing every video fart that some self-important "Revisionist" bigmouth might produce. For the re-run of denierbud's BS that FJ makes a fuss about, this thread will do. Maybe I'll link to it on the HC blog one day, and to other threads discussing FJ's techno-babble.
friedrichjansson wrote:Here's a picture of a single stack of bodies as allegedly seen on the "roasts" of Treblinka, with the space for the fuel indicated:

Image
As "allegedly seen" on the Treblinka roasts according to whom? According to Mattogno's straw-man calculations? These are mine:
The first layer bodies on this large area, according to the same authors, could have been no more than 4 bodies per 3 square meters, as each body would have occupied "a theoretical average surface area of the size of a rectangle of 1.75 m × 0.50 m, which also includes the necessary intervening space for the passage of the products of combustion". At 120 bodies per layer, and assuming a layer height of 0.30 m, a pyre of 3,500 bodies (the number that had to be burned on each of two pyres every day to dispose of about 860,000 bodies within 122 days[156]) would thus consist of 29 layers with an impracticable total height of 8.7 m.[157]

Why and how big the "necessary intervening space" between the bodies was calculated is not explained by Mattogno & Graf, which allows for assuming that it was deemed rather low, say no more than 5 cm, and that the average body they considered was 1.70 meters long and 0.45 meters wide. These are rather unrealistic measurements, considering that the deportees to Treblinka were largely if not predominantly women and children and mostly came from Polish ghettos where they had been subject to prolonged malnutrition, an adult with the aforementioned measurements thus being a rare exception rather than the rule.[158] Moreover most of the bodies had been lying in mass graves prior to cremation and lost a significant part of their volume as their water left them during the decomposition process. The average area occupied by a dead body on one of the Treblinka grids was thus considerably lower than results from M&G’s calculations.

On the page preceding these calculations, M&G take issue with an obviously misunderstood or mistranslated statement in Alexander Donat’s publication of Wiernik’s One Year in Treblinka, whereby an excavator could dig up 3,000 corpses "at one time" (the witness must have meant to say something like "in one day" or "in one shift"), derisively pointing out that "3,000 bodies take up a volume of about (3,000×0.045 =) 135 m3".[159] 135 m³ would be the volume occupied by a pile of bodies stacked on a 90 m² grate at a height of (135 ÷ 90) = 1.5 meters – 5 layers of bodies with an average height of 0.3 m per layer as considered by M&G, each layer consisting of (3,000 ÷ 5 =) 600 bodies. Assuming the area of 66 m² I estimated, the height of the pile would be ca. 2 meters (135 ÷ 66), corresponding to about 7 layers, each layer consisting of ca. 429 bodies (3,000 ÷ 7).

Assuming this lower area and the higher volume displacement of the "ideal man" calculated by Alex Bay[160], i.e. 3.3 cubic feet or 0.093 cubic meters (a rather conservative assumption that ignores both the presence of women and children among the corpses and the effects of decomposition), 3,000 bodies would occupy a volume of 279 cubic meters, and the pile of bodies on the grid would have to be about 4.2 meters high (279 ÷ 66), corresponding to 14 layers consisting of about 214 bodies each.

With 3,500 bodies, the figures calculated on the basis of the above assumptions for one body’s volume displacement (0.045 m³ or 0.093 m³) would be the following:

• Volume displacement of 0.045 m³ per body, grate area 90 m²: pyre volume above grate 157.5 m³, pyre height above grate 1.75 m = about 6 layers of about 583 bodies each;
• Volume displacement of 0.045 m³ per body, grate area 66 m²: pyre volume above grate 157.5 m³, pyre height above grate 2.4 m = about 8 layers of about 438 bodies each;
• Volume displacement of 0.093 m³ per body, grate area 90 m²: pyre volume above grate 325.5 m³, pyre height above grate 3.62 m = about 12 layers of about 292 bodies each;
• Volume displacement of 0.093 m³ per body, grate area 66 m²: pyre volume above grate 325.5 m³, pyre height above grate 4.93 m = about 16 layers of about 219 bodies each.

It follows that, if indeed there had been only two grates at Treblinka and it had been necessary to cremate about 860,000 bodies within a mere 122 days, building a pyre of 3,500 bodies wouldn’t have been an impracticable undertaking as M&G claim.

Another approach to establishing the number of bodies that could be burned on one of the Treblinka grates is looking at the cremation grid on the Dresden Altmarkt. This grate was about 20 feet (ca. 6.1 meters) long according to David Irving[161], roughly one fourth or one fifth of the length of a Treblinka grate. Assuming the same proportion for the area, the Treblinka grids had an area 4 to 5 times larger than the grate on the Dresden Altmarkt. According to Taylor[162], the dead on the Altmarkt were burned at the rate of one pyre per day, with around five hundred corpses per pyre. Assuming that the height and density at which the bodies were piled up at Treblinka was no larger than at Dresden[163], a pyre with an area 4 to 5 times higher could thus have burned 2,000 to 2,500 bodies per day. Building a pyre this size did not necessarily take longer than at Dresden if a sufficiently large labor force was available, moreover as such labor force would be assisted by excavators (which were not available at Dresden)[164] and, unlike at Dresden, no time was spent trying to identify the victims.

A lower number of bodies per pyre was mentioned by Ukrainian guard Leleko[165], who testified that about 1,000 bodies were burned simultaneously. On the other hand, this witness mentioned that the burning process lasted "up to five hours", which could allow for more than one burning process per grid per day.

How many dead bodies per day did the Treblinka grids have to process on average? As mentioned in section 3[166], bodies were cremated during a period of at least 5 but possibly as many as 7 months, so the average number of daily cremations, considering a total of ca. 789,000 corpses, was between 3,757 (7 months = 210 days) and 5,260 (5 months = 150 days). Two or three grids with a capacity of 2,000 to 2,500 corpses per day each would have been sufficient to achieve this daily average. However, evidence shows that the number of rosters was higher and that a correspondingly higher daily number of corpses could be burned at Treblinka:[167]
Other efficiency measures introduced included increasing the number of cremation sites to six – thus enabling the workers to burn up to 12,000 corpses simultaneously – and placing the roasters nearer the mass graves to save time in transferring the bodies. The roasters occupied a good portion of the area east of the gas chambers, which was clear of mass graves and buildings.
Mattogno and Graf mention the statement of witness Henryk Reichman on 9 October 1945, quoted in Z. Łukaszkiewicz, Obóz straceń w Treblince, Państwowy Instytut Wydawniczy, Warsaw 1946, whereby five to six grates were built, each of which was able to accommodate 2,500 bodies at a time.[168] Wiernik doesn’t give the number of roasters, but mentions that "the Germans built additional fire grates and augmented the crews serving them, so that from 10,000 to 12,000 corpses were cremated at one time"[169].
Last edited by Roberto on Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: A new video on open air cremation

Post by Roberto » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:57 pm

theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:Excellent video Friedrich.
Yeah, I'm sure this garbage will warm the hearts of true believers all over the world. :mrgreen:
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: A new video on open air cremation

Post by theblackrabbitofinlé » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:11 am

Roberto wrote:
theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:Excellent video Friedrich.
Yeah, I'm sure this garbage will warm the hearts of true believers all over the world. :mrgreen:
Far more than flames would have warmed the top row of bodies on the pyres. :lol:
We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsel, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

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Re: A new video on open air cremation

Post by Roberto » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:44 am

theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:
Roberto wrote:
theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:Excellent video Friedrich.
Yeah, I'm sure this garbage will warm the hearts of true believers all over the world. :mrgreen:
Far more than flames would have warmed the top row of bodies on the pyres. :lol:
Only if they were stacked 29 or so high, as per the videomaker's straw-man calculations.

I see the video maker also took kids to his mendacious experiments, by the way. That reminds me of this cartoon.

Incidentally, the video-maker might have avoided his pile of bodies vs. size of pyre nonsense if he had looked at these pictures of the cremation pyres at Dresden:

Image

Image

Image

Assuming a little intellectual honesty on the video-maker's part, that it. Which is probably too generous an assumption, judging by the ignorant and/or mendacious nonsense that the commentator (FJ?) tries to peddle.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: A new video on open air cremation

Post by friedrichjansson » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:26 pm

Boy, Roberto sure is dumb. It's hardly even worth responding to his nonsense.

Where to start? Maybe where he uses the figure of 0.045 cub. m. for the volume of a decomposed body as a basis for calculating the volume taken up by 3500 bodies - but the figure was for the actual displacement, i.e. the amount of water a body would displace if dunked in a tank of water. So RM's calculation of volume treats bodies as if they were water and are able to flow to fill all available space. Maybe they were pulverized in Treblinka's knife chamber first.

On his other figure, he still doesn't realize the fact that you can't simply divide volumes, but need to consider configuration. The bodies could not lie longitudinally, because they'd fall through the rails. The roasts did not have the width to allow two bodies to be placed end to end. For example, Rajchman places their width at 1.5 meters. This is why someone like Peter Laponder, not being a pathological liar in the style of RM, configures the bodies the way he does in his model - because that's what the witnesses described. Placing two bodies end to end is also impossible as RM's star witness Leleko explains that there were only four rails in the roasts, and if two bodies were placed end to end they would each be on only two rails, and would fall through. Therefore the width falls out of the equation, and we have only two factors for determining the number of layers: width taken up by one body and length of the roasts. The video uses 100 feet as the length of the roasts, which is a little too high, and uses 1 foot for the width of one body, which is quite low. But perhaps in RM's diseased brain the Jews were only 4 inches wide?

On pyre design and efficiency, can RM give even one documented example of a mass cremation that attained the fuel efficiency he claims is possible? Of course not. Even air curtain incinerators don't attain that degree of fuel efficiency. Why don't you offer your services to the world as an expert in body disposal, RM? You can go to the governments of the UK, the US, France, etc. and tell them: "I, Roberto Muehlenkamp, can reduce the amount of fuel you need for mass body disposal by 80%." You should be able to make quite a bit of money, while offering a real life refutation of those awful deniers.

Similarly, can RM point to any important holocaust historian who agrees with his... creative... description of the Treblinka cremation facilities? Or even one who makes serious use of Leleko? And can he explain all the interesting features of Leleko's statement, like the fact that he observed two gassing engines that took up two out of the ten chambers, and each of which served 4 chambers, or the fact that Leleko saw two powerful 1.5 meter tall German engines, while the other HC star witness Shalayev saw an ordinary four cylinder engine which he was told was Russian... (For comparison, the V-12 engines used in German heavy tanks were around 1 meter tall, and the M-17 gasoline engine (V-12) that went into some Russian tanks when there was a shortage of V-2s was 1.1 meters tall). And that's just scratching the surface of the oddities in Leleko's testimony.

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Re: A new video on open air cremation

Post by Roberto » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:14 pm

friedrichjansson wrote:Boy, Roberto sure is dumb. It's hardly even worth responding to his nonsense.
Looks like the video-making puke is mad at me. :mrgreen:
friedrichjansson wrote:Where to start? Maybe where he uses the figure of 0.045 cub. m. for the volume of a decomposed body as a basis for calculating the volume taken up by 3500 bodies - but the figure was for the actual displacement, i.e. the amount of water a body would displace if dunked in a tank of water.
Was that what Mattogno & Graf said?
friedrichjansson wrote:So RM's calculation of volume treats bodies as if they were water and are able to flow to fill all available space. Maybe they were pulverized in Treblinka's knife chamber first.
Looks like the video-making puke is trying to tell us that corpses had to be arranged on the grate in a certain manner. Like in a mass grave meant to be filled to the greatest extent possible, was my idea. I treated a pyre like a mass grave the other way round, and I figured that the density that can be achieved in a mass grave can be achieved on a pyre.
friedrichjansson wrote:On his other figure, he still doesn't realize the fact that you can't simply divide volumes, but need to consider configuration. The bodies could not lie longitudinally, because they'd fall through the rails. The roasts did not have the width to allow two bodies to be placed end to end. For example, Rajchman places their width at 1.5 meters. This is why someone like Peter Laponder, not being a pathological liar in the style of RM, configures the bodies the way he does in his model - because that's what the witnesses described. Placing two bodies end to end is also impossible as RM's star witness Leleko explains that there were only four rails in the roasts, and if two bodies were placed end to end they would each be on only two rails, and would fall through. Therefore the width falls out of the equation, and we have only two factors for determining the number of layers: width taken up by one body and length of the roasts. The video uses 100 feet as the length of the roasts, which is a little too high, and uses 1 foot for the width of one body, which is quite low. But perhaps in RM's diseased brain the Jews were only 4 inches wide?
The video-making puke's hysterical hollering (the poor soul is so carpet-biting mad that he even calls me a "pathological liar" and projects his "diseased brain" onto me) is duly noted, but it doesn't get him over this simple equation:
Another approach to establishing the number of bodies that could be burned on one of the Treblinka grates is looking at the cremation grid on the Dresden Altmarkt. This grate was about 20 feet (ca. 6.1 meters) long according to David Irving[161], roughly one fourth or one fifth of the length of a Treblinka grate. Assuming the same proportion for the area, the Treblinka grids had an area 4 to 5 times larger than the grate on the Dresden Altmarkt. According to Taylor[162], the dead on the Altmarkt were burned at the rate of one pyre per day, with around five hundred corpses per pyre. Assuming that the height and density at which the bodies were piled up at Treblinka was no larger than at Dresden[163], a pyre with an area 4 to 5 times higher could thus have burned 2,000 to 2,500 bodies per day. Building a pyre this size did not necessarily take longer than at Dresden if a sufficiently large labor force was available, moreover as such labor force would be assisted by excavators (which were not available at Dresden)[164] and, unlike at Dresden, no time was spent trying to identify the victims.
The video-making puke is also making the space between rails too wide. My calculations were these:
Size and configuration of the roaster: At Treblinka, according to the descriptions quoted above, each roaster consisted of railroad rails laid on top of concrete blocks placed inside or on the lateral rims of a pit 1 meter deep, there being a distance of 70 cm between the bottom of the rails and the top of the pit and a distance of 1.70 meters between the bottom of the rails and the bottom of the pit. The facility was 20 meters long according to Leleko, 25 to 30 meters long according to the witness or witnesses on whose testimony the Düsseldorf court based its findings of fact in this respect. I’ll take the mean of the three values, which is 25 meters. How wide the structure was depends on the number of rails making up the grid, their width and the space in between the rails. The measurements of various types of flat bottom rails are given in this table; most of these rails are 125 mm = 12.5 cm wide at the base. If the rails were placed on the concrete blocks according to base width, which seems to be the likeliest configuration, and if the intervals between them were no more than 50 cm, the width of the structure was 2 meters, 2.625 meters or 3.25 meters, depending on whether the grill consisted of four, five or six rails (the differences between Leleko’s number and those of the witness or witnesses on whose testimony the data in the Düsseldorf judgment are based may be due to the fact that the several structures of this kind in operation at Treblinka had different sizes). I’ll use the middle of these three values, 2.625 meters. The average area of one roaster at Treblinka would thus be 65.625 square meters, and the volume of space underneath the same about 112 cubic meters. The size of the facility at Sobibor is not known, but according to the Hagen court it was a large pit with a roaster inside it, also consisting of railroad rails. About the Belzec structure not much is known except that it was probably similar to that used at Treblinka.
friedrichjansson wrote:On pyre design and efficiency, can RM give even one documented example of a mass cremation that attained the fuel efficiency he claims is possible? Of course not. Even air curtain incinerators don't attain that degree of fuel efficiency. Why don't you offer your services to the world as an expert in body disposal, RM? You can go to the governments of the UK, the US, France, etc. and tell them: "I, Roberto Muehlenkamp, can reduce the amount of fuel you need for mass body disposal by 80%." You should be able to make quite a bit of money, while offering a real life refutation of those awful deniers.
That reminds me of something I wrote here, in connection with the experiments of Dr. Lothes and Dr. Profé:
A lot of fuel might be saved in future epidemics or other catastrophes requiring cremation of carcasses or human corpses if someone took a closer look at these experiments made in the early 20th Century and adopted the methods successfully applied there. SS-Unterscharführer Floss may have done just that at the Aktion Reinhard(t) camps.
And of course I would expect an air curtain incinerator to achieve a much more thorough cremation than was achieved at, say, Treblinka, where bone fragments large and small as well as larger bones and skulls were left lying all over the place.
friedrichjansson wrote:Similarly, can RM point to any important holocaust historian who agrees with his... creative... description of the Treblinka cremation facilities? Or even one who makes serious use of Leleko?
What's that supposed to mean? How many Holocaust historians have so far tried to understand the cremation process at the AR camps the way I have? None, I dare say. The critique is pioneering work in this respect. And I'm told it's being used by students and will be cited in an upcoming work of historiography about Aktion Reinhard(t).
friedrichjansson wrote:And can he explain all the interesting features of Leleko's statement, like the fact that he observed two gassing engines that took up two out of the ten chambers, and each of which served 4 chambers, or the fact that Leleko saw two powerful 1.5 meter tall German engines, while the other HC star witness Shalayev saw an ordinary four cylinder engine which he was told was Russian... (For comparison, the V-12 engines used in German heavy tanks were around 1 meter tall, and the M-17 gasoline engine (V-12) that went into some Russian tanks when there was a shortage of V-2s was 1.1 meters tall). And that's just scratching the surface of the oddities in Leleko's testimony.
... which FJ is desperate to discredit, suggesting that he considers it rather inconvenient. Like all testimonies, Leleko's may have its flaws, but his description of the cremation facility seems to be accurate. The pit under the grate, for instance, was also mentioned in the judgment at the 2nd Treblinka trial, IIRC. And I don't think Leleko's testimony was used there.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: A new video on open air cremation

Post by Bob » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:30 pm

RM, please, provide us with your sketches or model of your alleged installation + dimensions and etc., I will find it useful for possible future real experiments using animal tissues.

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Re: A new video on open air cremation

Post by Roberto » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:34 pm

Bob wrote:RM, please, provide us with your sketches or model of your alleged installation + dimensions and etc., I will find it useful for possible future real experiments using animal tissues.
Me, sketches? I'm not good at drawing. But Bob is free to use my description of the cremation facility, which is clear enough, for his "possible future real experiments using animal tissues".

And of course he's free to go into another of his "dodging" fits of hysteria. :mrgreen:
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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