Why didn't everyone notice the cremation?

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friedrichjansson
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Why didn't everyone notice the cremation?

Post by friedrichjansson » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:49 am

At Belzec and Treblinka the cremations allegedly consumed 5000-7000 bodies per day. Assuming the use of green wood, that means around 2,000,000 kg of wood burned per day. On planet Muehlenkamp, it means the use of around 150,000 kg of green wood per day.

How visible would fires that burned that much wood be? Let's compare them with wildfires, which also burn green wood. Here's data on fuel consumption per area for fires in different regions of the US:
Screenshot-17.png
Let's look at two recent examples. First, the recent fire in Colorado:
2013_06_15-16.58.19.981-CDT.jpeg
It was in Region 2, so fuel consumption is 67,000 kg per hectare. Therefore on planet Muehlenkamp, the cremations at Belzec and Treblinka burned as much wood as that fire burned in an area of over 2 hectares. For the rest of us, it's the equivalent of this fire burning an area of 30 hectares, or 0.3 square kilometers. How can this big of a fire not have been apparent to everyone? Yes, there are many reports of seeing fire and smoke, but they come from after the Soviets showed up. It's no surprise that people told such stories then. Where is the contemporaneous evidence? Where are the diaries of Belzec residents complaining about these massive fires? Where are the reports of the Belzec volunteer fire department recording these fires? Where are the photographs? We know that the Germans at Belzec invited locals to take their pictures, so it's not like they were concerned about security, and in any event, these fires could have been photographed from miles away. Why didn't the Polish resistance photograph the fires? We know that they were having trouble getting people to believe their propaganda, and we know that they gave reports that indicated that they had a presence near the alleged extermination camps. So why did they never think to take some photos of these enormous fires?

Second example: the recent fire in Arizona.
o-ARIZONA-WILDFIRE-facebook.jpg
r-ARIZONA-WILDFIRE-NEW-MEXICO-large570.jpg
wildfire_1-620x413.jpg
Wildfires_Arizona-07074-2194.jpg
130630_ariz_wildfire_2.jpg
It's in Region 3, so fuel consumption is 22,000 kg per hectare. On planet Muehlenkamp that meant that every day at Belzec and Treblinka consumed as much wood as this fire consumed in 7 hectares. For the rest of us, it's 91 hectares, or almost a square kilometer. Again: why didn't anyone take a photo of these enormous fires?


Roberto
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Re: Why didn't everyone notice the cremation?

Post by Roberto » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:18 pm

randomforumguy wrote:Are you serious ?
Yeah, actually we've been there before. From this post:
By the way, I took a peek at your cremation wisdom and was quite amused by two paragraphs. This is one:
As we see in the above table, Muehlenkamp asserts that he can burn 24,360 – 57,850 kg of wood on a 66 – 90 square meter pyre. This many times the amount of fuel consumed in fire C4. Look at the pictures and ask how reasonable it is to think that the every day for months the Germans burned multiple fires, each of which consumed many times the fuel consumed in fire C4. Wouldn’t the neighbors have noticed? I mean, really noticed? Maybe even taken some pictures?
The neighbors did notice, genius. There are several accounts by people living in the areas surrounding the camp that mention big fires, smoke and a big stink. IIRC I quoted some of them in Chapter 8 of what you (emulating a certain mendacious psychopath, and thereby making a fool of yourself) call the "cut and paste manifesto". Taking pictures was a bit more difficult, as I wouldn't expect Polish peasants to have many cameras and the Germans to have confiscated what cameras there were in the area. And besides, interest in what was being done not to good Polish Christians but to Jews was limited. So limited it actually was that the surrounding population took part in the fun, as mentioned here.

But the pinnacle of your glory is this remark:
Arguing that there were enormous – but totally undocumented – deliveries to the Reinhardt camps puts anti-revisionists into a bind, in that they rely heavily on the argument that there is little or no documentation of Jews being shipped onward from the Reinhardt camps, But if enormous deliveries of fuel can occur without leaving documents, so too can similar shipments of Jews.
Looks like your brain takes a rest as soon as you are through with your nicely illustrated techno-babble, my friend. How about taking my Challenge to Supporters of the Revisionist Transit Camp Theory?
Wildfires are not exactly appropriate parallels as they spread areas larger than those covered by the AR camps' pyres, but never mind. The neighbors did notice, as I said.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

friedrichjansson
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Re: Why didn't everyone notice the cremation?

Post by friedrichjansson » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:09 pm

Roberto wrote:The neighbors did notice, as I said.
Are you unable to read?
FJ wrote:Yes, there are many reports of seeing fire and smoke, but they come from after the Soviets showed up. It's no surprise that people told such stories then. Where is the contemporaneous evidence?
The reports you refer to are not from the time while the cremation was happening. Consider a parallel: suppose that it's claimed that aliens repeatedly landed in Belzec in early 1943, and in 1944 the area was overrun by a government (the UFOSSR) that fervently believed in alien visitations, and was determined to make everyone else believe in them as well. After the UFOSSR occupied the area, many locals reported that they saw the aliens. Very well. But the question is, who recorded the alien landings at the time that they happened? And what exactly did they record about them? And is what they recorded about them compatible with the theses being put forth by the UFOSSR?

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Re: Why didn't everyone notice the cremation?

Post by Roberto » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:06 pm

friedrichjansson wrote:
Roberto wrote:The neighbors did notice, as I said.
Are you unable to read?
FJ wrote:Yes, there are many reports of seeing fire and smoke, but they come from after the Soviets showed up. It's no surprise that people told such stories then. Where is the contemporaneous evidence?
The reports you refer to are not from the time while the cremation was happening. Consider a parallel: suppose that it's claimed that aliens repeatedly landed in Belzec in early 1943, and in 1944 the area was overrun by a government (the UFOSSR) that fervently believed in alien visitations, and was determined to make everyone else believe in them as well. After the UFOSSR occupied the area, many locals reported that they saw the aliens. Very well. But the question is, who recorded the alien landings at the time that they happened? And what exactly did they record about them? And is what they recorded about them compatible with the theses being put forth by the UFOSSR?
Ah, FJ is spinning conspiracy theories, postulating (with the inevitable UFO BS as an "example") that the Soviets were "determined to make everyone else believe" in those gigantic fires. Which is blatant bullshit, of course. The Soviets didn't really care much about a crime directed exclusively against Jews, they did some short investigation and moved on. About a year later Polish criminal justice authorities undertook more thorough investigations of the matter, and it was also in the context thereof that reports about those huge fires and the unbearable stench thereof were provided. I guess we're asked to believe, without any evidence to support this junk, that Polish investigators influenced those they interrogated into mentioning those fires. According to Robert Kuwalek's recent book about Belzec, elderly residents of towns as far 20 km away remember to this day the stench from the fires. Someone must have influenced them as well, in FJ's conspiracy cloud-cuckoo-land. And IIRC Kuwalek also mentioned contemporary reports about the fires from the Polish resistance, which I'll be glad to look up and transcribe. He also mentions contemporary complaints about the stench from local German administrative authorities, if I'm not mistaken.

A contemporary German report about the stench of decomposition and fire emanating from Belzec can be found in the notes of Wehrmacht officer Wilhelm Cornides. He and other witnesses of smell (from corpses decomposing or being burned) and/or smoke/fire are mentioned here:
A good example of the importance and possible usefulness of indirect witnesses can be seen in regards to the burial and cremations that took place in the three camps, from which the surrounding localities suffered through stench, smoke, and sometimes an overcast of firelight.[56] Belzec resident Maria Daniel, whom Mattogno derisively and ignorantly labels as “an insignificant witness who never put her feet into the camp,”[57] reported:

We could see a machine that took out the corpses from the graves and threw them into the fire. There were a few such fires going simultaneously. At that time a dreadful smell dominated the whole area, a smell of burned human bones and bodies. From the moment they began burning the corpses, from all directions of the camp came the smell of the corpses. When the Germans completed the burning of the corpses, they dismantled the camp.[58]

Janusz Peter, who lived in Tomaszow Lubelski some 9 km away from Belzec, wrote in his memoir that people on passenger trains arriving near the death camp often “had to vomit or pass out” due to the smell, while others had to leave the area because they constantly suffered “severe headaches, weight loss, loss of appetite, or anaemia.”[59] Another Pole from Tomaszow Lubelski stated that the townspeople kept rags soaked in cologne for when the stench became unbearable.[60] Josef L., a Pole from Rawa Ruska some 14 km away from Belzec, reported before the end of the war that fires were visible at night with the smell of burning flesh, while certain wind gusts would cause human hair to be blown to his town[61]; such a distance is supported by Belzec construction worker Stanislaw Kozak, who reported smelling the stench of burnt corpses up to 15 km away from the camp.[62]
Of course, Belzec was not the only camp whose cremations were noticed by locals, although it was the least secluded of the Reinhard camps. Around Sobibor there were similar observations. Pani Gerung stated that people in Chelm knew what was going in the camp, as “They could smell it-the air was rancid even though it was 20 miles away. And the sky lit up in the night with their terrible fires.”[63] In a contemporary 1943 report written by Slovakian Jewish deportees who were selected for labor at Sobibor and worked in nearby camps, one Jew who worked in ZAL Krychow reported that in the vicinity around Sobibor one could always see a fire at night, and that in the wider area there was a perceptible stench from the burning of hair.[64] Such a stench from Sobibor was not limited to the noses of nearby Jews and Poles. Hans Wagner, the commander of Sicherungsbatallion 689 in Chelm and who was later ordered to respond to the revolt in the Sobibor camp, stated after the war that his soldiers discussed amongst themselves and with him the smoke and stench that originated from the extermination camp.[65] The stench was so bad that SS-Scharführer Lachmann told of persons sent to Sobibor from the Trawniki camp who were forced to return with illness due to the smell of corpses;[66] when Lachmann actually was stationed at the camp and witnessed the mass graves being filled with corpses and a chlorine substance for himself, he stated that the smell was “excruciating.”[67]
Regarding Treblinka, the August 24, 1944 report by a Soviet investigative commission found that there were “statements of hundreds of inhabitants of villages” within a 10-15 km radius of the death camp who saw giant columns of black smoke from the camp, while inhabitants as close as 2 km to the camp (in the village of Vul’ka-Kronglik) stated that they actually heard the cries of people.[68] This information was contained in a report heavily quoted by Mattogno, but these lines were perhaps unsurprisingly omitted from his own publication.[69] There also exists another piece of indirect information which Mattogno has long ignored, the documented complaint from the Wehrmacht commander of Ostrow, located 20 km away from Treblinka, which states that “Jews in Treblinka were not adequately buried and as a result an unbearable smell of cadavers pollutes the air.”[70] Despite Mattogno’s feeble attempts to blame the stench on the few thousand of bodies buried at the Treblinka I labor camp[71], inmates at that same labor camp had no problem identifying the source of terrible smells from nearby death camp. Treblinka I prisoner Mieczyslaw Chodzko stated that “the spring winds brought with them the smell of burning bodies from the nearby extermination camp. We breathed in the stench of smouldering corpses…At night we gazed at skies red from the flames. Sometimes you could also see tongues of flames rising into the night.”[72] Another Treblinka I inmate, Israel Cymlich, wrote in 1943 that “smoke was billowing from the pits and the terrible smell of burning human bodies spread through the air.”[73] Obviously the smells that Cymlich and Chodzko experienced were from the cremation of the mass graves filled with hundreds of thousands of Jews in the Treblinka extermination camp, which the Wehrmacht command of Ostrow believed were “not adequately buried.”
Bystander witnesses have also given more recent evidence of witnessing shootings and smelling the cremations. Father Patrick Desbois interviewed the village priest of Belzec, aged 91, who described how, along with other villagers, he had watched executions from his roof. He also stated that his mother "couldn't bear the smoke" so had to shut herself up in the cellar. Another Desbois interviewee, a peasant, explained that the commander of Belzec camp requisitioned his wheat and barley sorting machine. When he went back to collect his machine, after the deportations had finished, he found that ten such machines were being used to sift Jews' ashes.[74] At least three Polish villagers testified to the investigators of Belzec in 1945 that they heard about the test gassing at Belzec from the Trawnikis.[75]
All of them influenced by some sinister entity, no doubt. Regardless of when they reported their experiences and whether it was to Soviet, Polish or German investigators or to Father Desbois. And even if their observations are recorded in a private diary or in a contemporary Kriegstagebuch.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

friedrichjansson
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Re: Why didn't everyone notice the cremation?

Post by friedrichjansson » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:18 pm

Skip the cut-and-paste jobs and provide the contemporaneous evidence, Roberto. Cornides' notes aren't even from the alleged cremation period at Belzec (he's too early) and he doesn't talk about smoke or flames. The other witness you mention are from well after the alleged cremation period. Where are the records of it from when it happened? Where are the photographs? Why didn't the Polish resistance, who were struggling to persuade the western powers of the veracity of their propaganda, ever think of sending a camera crew to get a detailed record of the cremations, which would have been extremely visible?

On the topic of the visibility, if you dislike the comparison to forest fires, then use the example of a fully engaged fire in a large house or warehouse. Such fires are visible for miles:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/03/29/ ... omer-glen/
http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/smo ... house-fire
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-1 ... s-griffith
http://www.kimatv.com/news/local/50546447.html
http://nyack.patch.com/groups/police-an ... c3348e6389
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?secti ... id=8320817
http://www.mercurynews.com/twitter/ci_1 ... id=dlvr.it

If there were such fires on a daily basis in the Reinhardt camps, then they would have drawn crowds from all over the region.

And how does the intensity of such fires compare to that of the alleged Reinhardt cremations? Well, according to the book Euro Firefighter a heavily-involved warehouse fire might have an intensity of 50 MW. If we take the energy content of wood to be 16 MJ/kg, this converts to 11,250 kg of wood per hour. This is comparable to the intensity of the daily Belzec and Treblinka cremations on planet Muehlenkamp; for the rest of us the alleged Reinhardt cremations would have had a much higher intensity.

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Re: Why didn't everyone notice the cremation?

Post by Roberto » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:18 pm

friedrichjansson wrote:Skip the cut-and-paste jobs and provide the contemporaneous evidence, Roberto. Cornides' notes aren't even from the alleged cremation period at Belzec (he's too early) and he doesn't talk about smoke or flames.
No, he talks about the smell of decomposition (explain that, please) and smell of burning (which may have been related to the top-down burning described by Dr. Pfannenstiel).
friedrichjansson wrote:The other witness you mention are from well after the alleged cremation period.
And so? They were provided before different entities at different times, independently of each other. In order to demonstrate that they are worthless, you need to demonstrate a rather complex and implausible conspiracy of evidence manipulation.
friedrichjansson wrote:Where are the records of it from when it happened?
I'll see what I can find in Kuwalek's book, but why should there be "records from when it happened", and what records exactly did you have in mind?
friedrichjansson wrote:Where are the photographs?
Don't know, but why should there necessarily be any photographs? Cameras were hardly abundant among the local Polish population, those that existed were probably confiscated for obvious reason, and anyone caught with photographs of the Treblinka pyres would probably have been shot for espionage. Why run the risk? Those were only Jews, after all, and the surrounding towns were thriving on the business with the Ukrainian guards.
friedrichjansson wrote:Why didn't the Polish resistance, who were struggling to persuade the western powers of the veracity of their propaganda, ever think of sending a camera crew to get a detailed record of the cremations, which would have been extremely visible?
What makes FJ think that the Polish resistance were particularly interested in what was happening to the Jews? Their reports about the matter, as pointed out by Kuwalek, suggest that they saw the genocide - which they couldn't help mentioning as it took place in front of the Polish population's eyes - as a secondary issue. Their primary concern were Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles. About these they reported in great detail. Their efforts to document the Nazi genocide of the Jews were comparatively halfhearted.
friedrichjansson wrote:On the topic of the visibility, if you dislike the comparison to forest fires, then use the example of a fully engaged fire in a large house or warehouse. Such fires are visible for miles:

If there were such fires on a daily basis in the Reinhardt camps, then they would have drawn crowds from all over the region.
Why so, and what would crowds from all over the region have done, except stand and watch and recall it later? Everybody knew where these fires came from and what was going on there. The smell told the story, as the smell of decomposing bodies previously had. No reason to alarm the fire brigade.
friedrichjansson wrote:And how does the intensity of such fires compare to that of the alleged Reinhardt cremations? Well, according to the book Euro Firefighter a heavily-involved warehouse fire might have an intensity of 50 MW. If we take the energy content of wood to be 16 MJ/kg, this converts to 11,250 kg of wood per hour. This is comparable to the intensity of the daily Belzec and Treblinka cremations on planet Muehlenkamp; for the rest of us the alleged Reinhardt cremations would have had a much higher intensity.
And so? The fires were noticed by the local population, as was the stench. What were they going to do about it, file complaints? On the one hand they didn't want problems with the Germans, on the other the plunder of the murdered Jews' property was good business for them, too. The only ones who may have left documentary records were German administrative entities not involved in the operation, who complained about the sight and smell the way the Wehrmacht commandant of Ostrow complained about the unbearable smell of insufficiently buried Jews emanating from the Treblinka camp, or like local authorities at Tomaszów Lubelski, 9 kilometers away from Belzec, complained about the stench emanating from the camp. But then, the cremations were removing the problem that had been their concern (environmental pollution from decomposing corpses, risk of epidemics), so they had no reason to complain about that. And besides, German documentation wasn't necessarily all recovered. Much of it, especially in connection with the AR camps, was destroyed during the war.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

friedrichjansson
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Re: Why didn't everyone notice the cremation?

Post by friedrichjansson » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:23 pm

As usual Roberto applies his patented ostrich/squid/skunk tactic: first, he places his head in the sand and pretends not to see arguments that are harmful to his case; second, he muddies the waters with the ink of his off topic arguments, thereby creating a distraction; third, he says things so stupid that the stink of his idiocy drives all thinking people away from the discussion.

Since he can't offer contemporaneous evidence of smoke and flames commensurate with the extent of the alleged cremation, he wants to talk about the odor of decomposition. But what is there to explain? Even 100 bodies will produce a huge stink if they aren't adequately buried.

The words "conspiracy theory" are the foundation of his argument. He claims that without some sinister conspiracy, the testimony of a number of people after the fact must reflect reality. How then does he explain Roswell? 300 witnesses testified about the aliens, Roberto - why would all these people collaborate in a hoax? Are you some kind of conspiracy theorist Roswell denier, RM?

Speaking of conspiracies, I offer two parallel quotations for contemplation:
Nick Terry wrote:Holocaust denial is unthinkable without some form of conspiracy theory.
Nick Terry wrote:Ohlendorf organised a blatant conspiracy to commit perjury regarding a pre-Barbarossa Fuhrer Order for the Einsatzgruppen.
Fascinating.
RM wrote:Cameras were hardly abundant among the local Polish population, those that existed were probably confiscated for obvious reason
This is one of RM's dumber ideas, which is saying something. Confiscating all cameras in a region would be incredibly difficult. You would need to search every house, and maintain a tight security perimeter at all times. Everyone in the region would be a witness to this campaign. Can RM provide any such witnesses? Or some German documents showing just what army carried out the great camera confiscation scheme?

Not to mention something in response to which RM is playing ostrich: the residents of Belzec were invited into the camp to take pictures of the staff!

On the alleged indifference of the Polish resistance to the Jewish question, and to currying favor with the Jews, RM might correct his silly ideas by consulting the two books by David Engel... but I forget, RM does not read books. Never mind.
Last edited by friedrichjansson on Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bob
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Re: Why didn't everyone notice the cremation?

Post by Bob » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:32 pm

Another stellar debate involving our "expert" Muehlenkamp facing usual refutation.

Germans were so concerned about confiscating the cameras if we follow made up nonsense from RM that they forgot to firstly confiscate camera of the alleged Treblinka station master Franciszek Zabecki who allegedly photographed alleged revolt, but for some strange reason he din´t bother to take a picture of alleged huge cremations he allegedly observed for months and which would have been at least similar to these nice examples.

If I didn´t miss anything, RM still didn´t produce records from the period in question as requested by FJ, for example photos, diaries, news and etc. Noted.

randomforumguy
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Re: Why didn't everyone notice the cremation?

Post by randomforumguy » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:27 am

Bob wrote:Another stellar debate involving our "expert" Muehlenkamp facing usual refutation.

Germans were so concerned about confiscating the cameras if we follow made up nonsense from RM that they forgot to firstly confiscate camera of the alleged Treblinka station master Franciszek Zabecki who allegedly photographed alleged revolt, but for some strange reason he din´t bother to take a picture of alleged huge cremations he allegedly observed for months and which would have been at least similar to these nice examples.

If I didn´t miss anything, RM still didn´t produce records from the period in question as requested by FJ, for example photos, diaries, news and etc. Noted.

The Treblinka station is not the same as the unloading ramp within the extermination complex :roll:

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