Alex Bay killed in trench collapse!

[friedrichjansson]

Alex Bay, who like all exterminationists is desperate to find burial space at the Reinhardt camps, assumes that the pits at Treblinka were 10 meters deep with walls sloped at 60 degrees. He writes:

Soil engineering textbooks have formulas one can plug into to determine the optimum angle, but they require that the soil mechanics be known and can be used as inputs to the equations. Therefore, we have guessed that at Treblinka, if the pits were dug 10 meters deep, the slope angles were 60 degrees.

Roberto even quoted this approvingly in the cut-and-paste manifesto, on page 388.

How reasonable are 60 degree slopes in the sandy soil of Treblinka? As is well known, the soil at Treblinka is sandy.

Let's look at real guidelines for excavation sloping:
http://www.roadplates.com/htdocs/osha/
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp ... p_id=10932

Maximum slopes:
Type A soil: 53 degrees
Type B soil: 45 degrees
Type C soil: 34 degrees

(One source also gives a max slope of 27 degrees for loose sand.)

Which type is the soil at Treblinka? If you read the links above, it's clear that it's not type A or type B. This is made even clearer by this video.

Of course, these are safety regulations, and somewhat greater grades are possible, although they would be difficult to maintain while workers were continually walking in and out of the pit - but 60 degrees for a ten-meter-deep pit in sandy soil is ludicrous.

Therefore, I deduce that Bay has died in a trench collapse. He should have paid more attention to those books.

[randomforumguy]

Your logic is flawed. You have not factored in the supporting effect of the bodies

[Roberto]

Your logic is flawed. You have not factored in the supporting effect of the bodies

Yep, and the pits were also not necessarily 10 meters deep. The one pit whose depth was measured was 7.5 meters deep, as mentioned in a site investigation report quoted here:

The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition. The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here.

Page 388 of what FJ, in self-disgracing emulation of a certain sociopath's rhetoric, calls the "cut and paste manifesto", can be read here. The chapter it belongs to is based on the blog series starting here.

And it's good to know that the "cut and paste manifesto" and my humble person continue to figure prominently in FJ's concerns.

[friedrichjansson]

the pits were also not necessarily 10 meters deep.

A 5 meter deep pit with 60 degree walls in sandy soil is equally absurd.

The one pit whose depth was measured was 7.5 meters deep, as mentioned in a site investigation report quoted here:

The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition. The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here.

Only someone as dumb as Roberto could deduce a 7.5 meter pit from a 1.5 meter layer at the bottom of a 6 meter deep bomb crater. All that indicates is that the explosion sent 7.5 meters of material into the air, and that 6 meters worth of it came down outside the crater, while 1.5 meters worth of it came back down in the crater.

The "intense odor of burning and decay" gets you nothing, since it's routinely found in individual burials and cremation burials that are many hundreds of years old. It tells you nothing about the quantity of human remains, and it doesn't even imply that they were recent.

[randomforumguy]

freidrich, do you have an engineering background ? Roberto does

[Roberto]

freidrich, do you have an engineering background ? Roberto does

No I don't. I have no technical background whatsoever. But that doesn't mean I' can't think critically about FJ's techno-babble.

[Roberto]

the pits were also not necessarily 10 meters deep.

A 5 meter deep pit with 60 degree walls in sandy soil is equally absurd.

Because FJ says so, or for any reason worth considering?

OK, let's assume that 60 degree walls would have meant the risk of walls collapsing, at least before they were stabilized by wooden planks leaned against them and/or by corpses inside the pits. So what? The SS folks never entered these pits, and if one happened to collapse on top of Jewish forced laborers, why care?

The one pit whose depth was measured was 7.5 meters deep, as mentioned in a site investigation report quoted here:

The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition. The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here.

Only someone as dumb as Roberto could deduce a 7.5 meter pit from a 1.5 meter layer at the bottom of a 6 meter deep bomb crater.

If so, I'd be in the good company of Examining Judge Łukaszkiewicz, who ordered this excavation to establish the depth of the pit(s) in this part of the camp.

All that indicates is that the explosion sent 7.5 meters of material into the air, and that 6 meters worth of it came down outside the crater, while 1.5 meters worth of it came back down in the crater.

And due to some strange coincidence that explosion would have sent material into the air precisely until the depth where untouched soil began, yeah. Material saturated with ashes and larger human remains, which I'm sure FJ will be glad to explain. And why would some of this material have come back down in the crater?

Besides, the bottom of the crater was probably established because the soil was more compact there. Material thrown into the air and coming back down would probably have been loose.

The "intense odor of burning and decay" gets you nothing, since it's routinely found in individual burials and cremation burials that are many hundreds of years old. It tells you nothing about the quantity of human remains, and it doesn't even imply that they were recent.

Well, for ashes and numerous (larger) human remains to saturate the soil of a pit 7.5 meters deep with a diameter of 25 meters, that must have been quite an ancient burial. And the presence of remains still in a state of decomposition suggests that the remains weren't quite that old. Besides, it's not like physical remains had been the only evidence. They only corroborated eyewitness testimonies about what had happened at Treblinka not very long ago.

The explosion craters, by the way, were the work of robbery diggers. They must have happened to be plundering ancient graves at just that place and time, another of those strange coincidences.

As to amounts of remains, it's certainly difficult to quantify bone fragments, teeth, whole or broken skulls and other bones in such a manner as to accurately estimate the number of people buried at the place, but the size of the area covered by such remains (again, due to the activity of robbery diggers) gives you an idea of the order of magnitude. From Łukaszkiewicz's report of 29 December 1945:

With the assistance of an expert land surveyor and witnesses, I made an exact inspection of the terrain. According to the measurements, the area of the camp is approximately 13.45 hectares and had the shape of an irregular quadrilateral.[…] In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of« wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay.

Some photographs to illustrate this description:

[randomforumguy]

freidrich, do you have an engineering background ? Roberto does

No I don't. I have no technical background whatsoever. But that doesn't mean I' can't think critically about FJ's techno-babble.

Same here. Thanks for the correction. I dont know why I was under the impression that you were.

[friedrichjansson]

OK, let's assume that 60 degree walls would have meant the risk of walls collapsing, at least before they were stabilized by wooden planks leaned against them and/or by corpses inside the pits. So what? The SS folks never entered these pits, and if one happened to collapse on top of Jewish forced laborers, why care?

How did the Jews get in and out of the pits? Do you have any idea how steep 60 degrees is?

Screenshot-001.png

All that indicates is that the explosion sent 7.5 meters of material into the air, and that 6 meters worth of it came down outside the crater, while 1.5 meters worth of it came back down in the crater.

And due to some strange coincidence that explosion would have sent material into the air precisely until the depth where untouched soil began, yeah. Material saturated with ashes and larger human remains, which I'm sure FJ will be glad to explain. And why would some of this material have come back down in the crater?

The untouched soil is the soil untouched by the explosion, not untouched by a grave. All the soil thrown in the air by the explosion will be mixed - the layers will not be preserved. It will look like this:

Slide3.jpg

In the case of our 6 meter deep crater, the grey layer at the bottom was, if the sources are to be believed, 1.5 meters thick. This tells us about the crater - not about any graves.

Besides, the bottom of the crater was probably established because the soil was more compact there. Material thrown into the air and coming back down would probably have been loose.

This is just speculation, and is not in the source. It is also doubtful, as the diggings took place over a year after the explosions.

As to amounts of remains, it's certainly difficult to quantify bone fragments, teeth, whole or broken skulls and other bones in such a manner as to accurately estimate the number of people buried at the place,

Actually this is a task that forensic experts are often asked to perform after mass disasters involving fire.

[Roberto]

OK, let's assume that 60 degree walls would have meant the risk of walls collapsing, at least before they were stabilized by wooden planks leaned against them and/or by corpses inside the pits. So what? The SS folks never entered these pits, and if one happened to collapse on top of Jewish forced laborers, why care?

How did the Jews get in and out of the pits? Do you have any idea how steep 60 degrees is?

If that was a problem, they could make a less steep incline at the point of entry and exit.

All that indicates is that the explosion sent 7.5 meters of material into the air, and that 6 meters worth of it came down outside the crater, while 1.5 meters worth of it came back down in the crater.

And due to some strange coincidence that explosion would have sent material into the air precisely until the depth where untouched soil began, yeah. Material saturated with ashes and larger human remains, which I'm sure FJ will be glad to explain. And why would some of this material have come back down in the crater?

The untouched soil is the soil untouched by the explosion, not untouched by a grave. All the soil thrown in the air by the explosion will be mixed - the layers will not be preserved. It will look like this:

Slide3.jpg

In the case of our 6 meter deep crater, the grey layer at the bottom was, if the sources are to be believed, 1.5 meters thick. This tells us about the crater - not about any graves.

All very interesting, but where's this supposed to get us considering that 7.5 meters was the depth to which the soil was found saturated with ashes and larger human remains? What was referred to as untouched soil by the investigator was obviously the soil in which no admixture of human remains was found.

Besides, the bottom of the crater was probably established because the soil was more compact there. Material thrown into the air and coming back down would probably have been loose.

This is just speculation, and is not in the source. It is also doubtful, as the diggings took place over a year after the explosions.

Could be. But where is this supposed to get us, considering that 7.5 meters was the depth to which the soil was found saturated with ashes and larger human remains?

As to amounts of remains, it's certainly difficult to quantify bone fragments, teeth, whole or broken skulls and other bones in such a manner as to accurately estimate the number of people buried at the place,

Actually this is a task that forensic experts are often asked to perform after mass disasters involving fire.

So, on what occasions has the number of victims of a mass disaster involving fire been established by quantifying bone fragments, teeth and other partial remains of human bodies? Let's see some examples.