The rails would have bent in the heat

Discuss the alleged Nazi genocide or other wartime atrocities without fear of censorship. No bullying of fellow posters is allowed at RODOH. If you can't be civil, please address the argument and not the participants. Do not use disparaging alterations of the user-names of other RODOH posters or their family members. Failure to heed warnings from Moderators will result in a 24 hour ban (or longer if necessary).
Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
Contact:

Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by Roberto » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:41 am

rollo the ganger wrote:
Except that FJ means railway rails, not trolley rails.
Where do you get "trolley rails" The caption under the photo states [My emphasis] :
Dwight D. Eisenhower (centre) in front of a grid the SS had fashioned from railway tracks for the purpose of burning the corpses of dead inmates from the mass graves, April 12, 1945. Photo: Moore, U.S. Signal Corps. National Archives Washington
Why do you just make things up Roberto?
I don't. It's just that the tracks in question look too small to me for tracks from a main line or suburban railway as opposed to what in German is called a Feldbahn, a narrow gauge railway, whose rails are more like those of a streetcar. At Treblinka they initially used narrow gauge rails for the grates, but as these rails bent in the fire they switched to big train rails. The source of this information is Franz Stangl, quoted in Rückerl, NS-Vernichtungslager im Spiegel deutscher Strafprozesse, pp. 250-251.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

friedrichjansson
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 4:43 am
Contact:

Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by friedrichjansson » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:17 am

Roberto wrote:
friedrichjansson wrote:3. Roberto is still hanging on to his cremation-with-only-a-very-short-period-of-intense-burning fantasy.
If I understood correctly the "very short period" could be up to 90 minutes assuming that FJ's thermodynamic calculations are correct.
No, 90 minutes was a loose upper bound; the real figure will be lower.
Roberto wrote:
friedrichjansson wrote:Let him find one reference - just one - in the literature on open air cremations to a cremation that took place in the manner he is suggesting.
Whatever FJ means by the manner I'm suggesting. I'd say the closest match to the Treblinka methodology, apart from the Dresden pyres, were the aforementioned cattle-burning experiments, whose authors didn't write anything about their T-carriers (lain over the edge of the pit and not supported by pillars) bending or breaking in the heat.
Their beams were 1 meter long, and their load was under 1000 kg. Compare that to Treblinka, with a total length of 30 meters, perhaps divided up into a few spans, and a total load of 100,000 kg.

friedrichjansson
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 4:43 am
Contact:

Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by friedrichjansson » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:21 am

Some fun photos for fans of fire and steel, from a tanker fire under a bridge:
alabamatruck2.jpg
alabamatruck5.jpg
alabamatruck7.jpg

Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
Contact:

Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by Roberto » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:55 am

friedrichjansson wrote:
Roberto wrote:
friedrichjansson wrote:3. Roberto is still hanging on to his cremation-with-only-a-very-short-period-of-intense-burning fantasy.
If I understood correctly the "very short period" could be up to 90 minutes assuming that FJ's thermodynamic calculations are correct.
No, 90 minutes was a loose upper bound; the real figure will be lower.
Ah. Now all you have to tell us is how much lower and then demonstrate that the Treblinka pyres would necessarily reach that lower temperature.
friedrichjansson wrote:
Roberto wrote:
friedrichjansson wrote:Let him find one reference - just one - in the literature on open air cremations to a cremation that took place in the manner he is suggesting.
Whatever FJ means by the manner I'm suggesting. I'd say the closest match to the Treblinka methodology, apart from the Dresden pyres, were the aforementioned cattle-burning experiments, whose authors didn't write anything about their T-carriers (lain over the edge of the pit and not supported by pillars) bending or breaking in the heat.
Their beams were 1 meter long, and their load was under 1000 kg. Compare that to Treblinka, with a total length of 30 meters, perhaps divided up into a few spans, and a total load of 100,000 kg.
Perhaps divided into a few spans he says, after he had to go to Wiernik's model (which is hardly a model of exactitude, already because the pits below the grates are missing) to convince himself that the map from This was Oswiecim "turns out not to show seven spans after all", and conveniently ignore Leleko's description quoted here, which besides mentioning a pit below the grates suggests a multitude of spans, and also a smaller length of rails:
An incinerator from the burning of bodies was situated about 10 meters beyond the large gas chamber building. It had the shape of a cement pit about one meter deep and 20 meters long. A series of furnaces covered on the top with four rows of rails extended along the entire length of one of the walls of the pit. The bodies were laid on the rails, caught fire from the flames burning in the furnaces and burned. About 1000 bodies were burned simultaneously. The burning process lasted up to five hours.
As to the "total load of 100,000 kg", where did he did that up? As shown in this table from the same blog, the average weight of a corpse burned on the Treblinka pyres was 18.95 kg. As concerns the number of bodies burned at one time (which would include only decomposed or both decomposed and non-decomposed bodies, depending on whether new transports had to be processed on a given day along with the disinterred corpses), I wrote the following:
Another approach to establishing the number of bodies that could be burned on one of the Treblinka grates is looking at the cremation grid on the Dresden Altmarkt. This grate was about 20 feet (ca. 6.1 meters) long according to David Irving[161], roughly one fourth or one fifth of the length of a Treblinka grate. Assuming the same proportion for the area, the Treblinka grids had an area 4 to 5 times larger than the grate on the Dresden Altmarkt. According to Taylor[162], the dead on the Altmarkt were burned at the rate of one pyre per day, with around five hundred corpses per pyre. Assuming that the height and density at which the bodies were piled up at Treblinka was no larger than at Dresden[163], a pyre with an area 4 to 5 times higher could thus have burned 2,000 to 2,500 bodies per day. Building a pyre this size did not necessarily take longer than at Dresden if a sufficiently large labor force was available, moreover as such labor force would be assisted by excavators (which were not available at Dresden)[164] and, unlike at Dresden, no time was spent trying to identify the victims.

A lower number of bodies per pyre was mentioned by Ukrainian guard Leleko[165], who testified that about 1,000 bodies were burned simultaneously. On the other hand, this witness mentioned that the burning process lasted "up to five hours", which could allow for more than one burning process per grid per day.

How many dead bodies per day did the Treblinka grids have to process on average? As mentioned in section 3[166], bodies were cremated during a period of at least 5 but possibly as many as 7 months, so the average number of daily cremations, considering a total of ca. 789,000 corpses, was between 3,757 (7 months = 210 days) and 5,260 (5 months = 150 days). Two or three grids with a capacity of 2,000 to 2,500 corpses per day each would have been sufficient to achieve this daily average. However, evidence shows that the number of rosters was higher and that a correspondingly higher daily number of corpses could be burned at Treblinka:[167]

Other efficiency measures introduced included increasing the number of cremation sites to six – thus enabling the workers to burn up to 12,000 corpses simultaneously – and placing the roasters nearer the mass graves to save time in transferring the bodies. The roasters occupied a good portion of the area east of the gas chambers, which was clear of mass graves and buildings.
2,500 corpses per pyre - 47,375 kg
2,000 corpses per pyre - 37,900 kg
1,000 corpses per pyre - 18,950 kg.

Now, what about the Dresden pyres?

We know from a source kindly provided by FJ that they burned the bodies to ashes there, and the picture below also suggests that they achieved a more thorough degree of cremation than is suggested by these images and related site investigation reports regarding Treblinka.

Image

We know from the source parts of Mr. Taylor's writings, quoted here, that "the dead were burned at the rate of one pyre per day, with around five hundred corpses per pyre" (and the average weight of these corpses was certainly higher than at Treblinka, as there were no decomposed corpses and/or corpses of malnourished people among them), that the cremation "was carried out under the supervision of outside SS experts", and that "these were said to be former staff from the notorious extermination camp at Treblinka".

And we have photographs on which one can see what the grates and their support looked like:

Image

Image

Pictures are something we don't have for Treblinka, without that keeping FJ from producing elaborate conjectures about how the rails would have behaved when corpses were burned there.

So, would the Dresden cremation device also have been rendered useless by the weight above and the heat below the fire before the job of cremating 6,865 corpses of air raid victims was accomplished?

Let's see the calculations whereby FJ demonstrates that and why this would not have happened. After all the Dresden cremation pyres are the closest match to the Treblinka cremation pyres outside the context of the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

friedrichjansson
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 4:43 am
Contact:

Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by friedrichjansson » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:07 am

Roberto wrote:
friedrichjansson wrote:
Roberto wrote:
friedrichjansson wrote:3. Roberto is still hanging on to his cremation-with-only-a-very-short-period-of-intense-burning fantasy.
If I understood correctly the "very short period" could be up to 90 minutes assuming that FJ's thermodynamic calculations are correct.
No, 90 minutes was a loose upper bound; the real figure will be lower.
Ah. Now all you have to tell us is how much lower and then demonstrate that the Treblinka pyres would necessarily reach that lower temperature.
This is a TIME, not a temperature. What an idiot Roberto is.

Roberto's claims that the bodies were "burned to ashes" at Dresden or in Heepke's experiments are meaningless and technically senseless. In neither case do we have any real documentation of the cremation remains. "Ashes" is used in these cases in the broad sense, and refers to whatever remains after a destructive fire. Contrary to Roberto's fantasies, fire never reduces bodies to ashes in the narrow sense of the term. To do as he does and attempt to ignore the witness statements on which the Treblinka story is based when performing a technical analysis of the Treblinka cremation facilities is absurd.

In any case, the holocaust history channel has released a new article on the Reinhardt cremation facilities, this time looking at yield strength rather than deflection. It establishes that even if short spans of 10 feet were used, the structures would have failed - and according to Yankel Wiernik the spans were more like 30 feet long.
Screenshot-31.png

Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
Contact:

Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by Roberto » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:53 am

friedrichjansson wrote:3. Roberto is still hanging on to his cremation-with-only-a-very-short-period-of-intense-burning fantasy.

If I understood correctly the "very short period" could be up to 90 minutes assuming that FJ's thermodynamic calculations are correct.

No, 90 minutes was a loose upper bound; the real figure will be lower.

Ah. Now all you have to tell us is how much lower and then demonstrate that the Treblinka pyres would necessarily reach that lower temperature.

This is a TIME, not a temperature. What an idiot Roberto is.
No, the fuss made about my misunderstanding shows what an hysterical idiot FJ is. The question should have been:

Now all you have to tell us is how much lower and then demonstrate that the Treblinka rails would have been exposed to the temperature considered for at least that lower time.

And, of course, that the temperature the Treblinka rails were exposed to for at least such lower time was necessarily the temperature you considered.
friedrichjansson wrote:Roberto's claims that the bodies were "burned to ashes" at Dresden or in Heepke's experiments are meaningless and technically senseless. In neither case do we have any real documentation of the cremation remains. "Ashes" is used in these cases in the broad sense, and refers to whatever remains after a destructive fire. Contrary to Roberto's fantasies, fire never reduces bodies to ashes in the narrow sense of the term.
Much ado about nothing, considering my further precision of what I meant by "ashes" in this context:
We know from a source kindly provided by FJ that they burned the bodies to ashes there, and the picture below also suggests that they achieved a more thorough degree of cremation than is suggested by these images and related site investigation reports regarding Treblinka.

Image
"Ashes" are what you see in the foreground of the Dresden picture: presumably friable bone fragments that can be further reduced by crushing, until they look like what is commonly considered "ashes".
friedrichjansson wrote:To do as he does and attempt to ignore the witness statements on which the Treblinka story is based when performing a technical analysis of the Treblinka cremation facilities is absurd.
Witnesses are usually right about the event they describe but often mistaken about details, and whose witness statements am I supposed to be ignoring? Not that of Mr. Leleko.
friedrichjansson wrote:In any case, the holocaust history channel has released a new article on the Reinhardt cremation facilities, this time looking at yield strength rather than deflection. It establishes that even if short spans of 10 feet were used, the structures would have failed - and according to Yankel Wiernik the spans were more like 30 feet long.
"According to Yankel Wiernik" presumably means Wiernik's model, which as I pointed out is not a model of exactitude. The map from This was Oswiecim suggests a higher number of spans, and so does Leleko's testimony, which also mentions a lower rail length.

I'll have a closer look at all of FJ's rail wisdom in due time. Just a question for know, what corpse weights did he consider? I gave him three alternatives:

2,500 corpses per pyre - 47,375 kg
2,000 corpses per pyre - 37,900 kg
1,000 corpses per pyre - 18,950 kg.

And what about the Dresden pyres? When can we see FJ's calculations whereby the Dresden cremation device would not have been rendered useless by the weight above and the heat below the fire before the job of cremating 6,865 corpses of air raid victims was accomplished?
friedrichjansson wrote:
Screenshot-31.png
Interesting, except that all the weight was bearing on the collapsing structure's middle point in the fire, wasn't it?
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

friedrichjansson
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 4:43 am
Contact:

Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by friedrichjansson » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:39 pm

Roberto wrote:whose witness statements am I supposed to be ignoring? Not that of Mr. Leleko.
Actually you are ignoring his statement, as he claimed that there was only one cremation facility, which wouldn't have sufficed to burn all the bodies.
Roberto wrote: Interesting, except that all the weight was bearing on the collapsing structure's middle point in the fire, wasn't it?

So what? The moment imposed by a point load at the center of a span is twice that of a uniform load, so if the load were concentrated at one point (it wasn't) it would have been equivalent to 2*3000 = 6000 pounds in uniform load as far as yield strength is concerned.

Notice that the failure occurred at such a low temperature that the beam was not even glowing.

Now, look at what happens to a rail that's been put in a fire:
Screenshot-57.png
It isn't even glowing, but it still bent under its own weight!

But at Treblinka,
Screenshot-60.png

rollo the ganger
Posts: 6207
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:34 am
Contact:

Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by rollo the ganger » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:35 pm

Even a hot day in the sun will bend rails:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mtamaryland/6150457610/

It called "sun kinks".

friedrichjansson
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 4:43 am
Contact:

Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by friedrichjansson » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:12 am

rollo the ganger wrote:Even a hot day in the sun will bend rails:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mtamaryland/6150457610/

It called "sun kinks".
Very true, although the cause is different - thermal expansion rather than high-temperature weakening. The rails expand in the heat, and if they exceed the capacity of the expansion joints, the rails are forced to buckle.

On another note, here's some more rail bending eye-candy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLVKb1HxhAY

rollo the ganger
Posts: 6207
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:34 am
Contact:

Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by rollo the ganger » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:45 am

Just a little levity there FJ.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 5 guests