The rails would have bent in the heat

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randomforumguy
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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by randomforumguy » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:28 am

keep the insults in exile

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Charles Traynor
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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by Charles Traynor » Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:24 pm

genericnondescripguy wrote:Roberto. It is actually in a video documentary of Sobibor with a team of radar experts reconstructing the camp. It was on youtube, but has been removed and I have not been able to find it. It is out there though. They reconstruct the camp using CAD and GPR. The radar guys name is Wojciech Mazurek I think.
Who needs technology like CAD and GPR when Yoram Haimi (the cretins reluctance to name Haimi has been noted) the other member of this illustrious documentary making team can construct gas chambers out of string?

Why is this troll being allowed to post here again?
Kitty Hart-Moxon (1998): "Believe me, I came into Auschwitz in a much worse condition than I actually left it."

randomforumguy
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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by randomforumguy » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:17 pm

Charles Traynor wrote:
genericnondescripguy wrote:Roberto. It is actually in a video documentary of Sobibor with a team of radar experts reconstructing the camp. It was on youtube, but has been removed and I have not been able to find it. It is out there though. They reconstruct the camp using CAD and GPR. The radar guys name is Wojciech Mazurek I think.
Who needs technology like CAD and GPR when Yoram Haimi (the cretins reluctance to name Haimi has been noted) the other member of this illustrious documentary making team can construct gas chambers out of string?

Why is this troll being allowed to post here again?

Stop trying to ruin the thread.

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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by Roberto » Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:54 pm

friedrichjansson wrote:1. Roberto, kindly proceed to add to your blogroll a link to the Holocaust History Channel as per our agreement.
Done.
friedrichjansson wrote:2. Roberto seems to be arguing "well, the rails might not have bent if the descriptions of the cremation facilities given by the Jewish witnesses, the postwar investigative commissions, the models (all of them), and the maps endorsed by holocaustic authorities are all wrong." Well, sure. But if we're going to allow that all these people were wrong, we might as well become revisionists.
Maps and models are a bad argument as both may simplify certain details, and as to Jewish witnesses and postwar investigative commissions (which, as concerns these facilities, had only Jewish witnesses to go by), if these people (which of them did you have in mind?) were wrong about certain particulars of the cremation pyres in question, that means just that. It doesn't mean they were wrong about everything else. It doesn't mean there were no cremation pyres. It doesn't mean that the soil at the former extermination camps is not saturated with remains of what, judging by the pictures I showed in my previous post and the descriptions of human remains found on site (besides the archaeological investigations whose reports are quoted here and here), was a rather incomplete/imperfect cremation. And it doesn't change the fact that all known evidence, whatever its flaws and inconsistencies may be, points to large-scale mass murder whereas none points to an alternative scenario. 7 decades after the events in question, "Revisionists" have not been able to come up with a single name of a Jew supposedly "transited" via B, S or T to the Soviet territories occupied by Nazi Germany during World War II, even though such names would be all over the place if such massive "transit" via these camps had occurred. Which is why they are reduced to haggling about technical "inconsistencies".

Ah, and it would do FJ good to become a revisionist in the proper sense of the term. Right now he's just one of those conspiracy theorists who never notice that the small inconsistencies in the accounts which they reject are dwarfed by the enormous, gaping holes in logic, likelihood and evidence in any alternative account. Or maybe he does notice but ignores this dilemma in his blind pursuit of an ideological agenda.
friedrichjansson wrote:Indeed, Roberto's descriptions of pyres - when it comes to rail temperature - are totally disconnected even from his own description of the cremation facility in the cut-and-paste manifesto.
What description exactly did FJ have in mind?

And why does he insist in making a fool of himself by emulating a certain paranoid lunatic's "cut and paste manifesto" rhetoric?
friedrichjansson wrote:Likewise, his discussion of the degree to which the pillars might protect the bodies from heat is based on disregarding the Treblinka witness statements completely and basing his description on a photo from Dresden.
Sorry, but what Treblinka witness statements exactly am I supposed to be disregarding? Quote them, please. And then provide your demonstration of "the degree to which the pillars might protect the bodies from heat" at Treblinka according to what you consider to be "my" description.
friedrichjansson wrote:3. Roberto is still hanging on to his cremation-with-only-a-very-short-period-of-intense-burning fantasy.
If I understood correctly the "very short period" could be up to 90 minutes assuming that FJ's thermodynamic calculations are correct.
friedrichjansson wrote:These pictures should give him an idea of how that might (not) work.
Laying a carcass on a pyre of wood and setting it on fire is not a very effective method indeed. Better use a grate placed over a pit in which the fire burns, or preferably inside that pit over a smaller pit, as was done by these German veterinarians in the early 20th Century. They achieved rather complete cremation using comparatively little fuel.
friedrichjansson wrote:Let him find one reference - just one - in the literature on open air cremations to a cremation that took place in the manner he is suggesting.
Whatever FJ means by the manner I'm suggesting. I'd say the closest match to the Treblinka methodology, apart from the Dresden pyres, were the aforementioned cattle-burning experiments, whose authors didn't write anything about their T-carriers (lain over the edge of the pit and not supported by pillars) bending or breaking in the heat.
friedrichjansson wrote:Cases of human autocombustion (after external ignition) are not cremations.
Maybe so, but this case of "auto-combustion" reminded its observer of Treblinka:
A second ewe weighing approximately 170 pounds was killed and laid on its back on the front seat of the Plymouth. Eleven quarts of gasoline were poured in selected locations. A window and a door were left open. The gasoline was ignited and allowed to bum freely. After about thirty minutes everything in the car that could burn was consumed except for the carcass. As the rest of the car became cold a modest fire continued around the carcass for more than three hours. The fire was not coming from the carcass itself but from underneath it. The carcass was still suspended on the seat springs with a lot of char and ash underneath. The fat being rendered from the carcass dripped onto the char which acted like a candle wick and kept the fat burning. This burning rendered more fat.
The carcass from the Nash weighed an estimated 120 pounds after burning for a loss of about 30 pounds from the fire. The ends of the legs were burned off and the fur and skin was burned off on the exposed chest area. There was still much intact wool beneath the surface char on the animal's back and sides.
The carcass remains from the Plymouth weighed an estimated 50 pounds after burning for a loss of
about 120 pounds from the fire. The chest and neck were thoroughly consumed. Only the skull
and the abdominal and pelvic regions were not completely burned.

DISCUSSION
The findings showed that for a ewe, and presumably for a human also, the body can be rather thoroughly consumed by fire from its own fat. A necessary condition is that the body be suspended
in such a way that it is over the fire which is fed from the body fat. Some related information was
found in an article concerning a Nazi extermination camp and its trouble destroying the corpses
(3). Burning gasoline on piles of corpses on the ground did not consume the corpses. Eventually
an "expert" was brought in who arranged the bodies on a rack with the corpses that appeared to
contain some fat being placed on the bottom of the pile. A good fire beneath the rack caused fat to
drip down and burn. The corpses which were thus over the fire instead of on the ground were reduced
to ashes.
---
friedrichjansson wrote:If Roberto wants any further response on this point let him find the courage to compose his thoughts (such as they are) and post them on his blog, while giving a link to what I have said about the matter and to any reply I might have.
FJ babbles way too much about "courage" for a filth merchant who presumably writes under an alias and desperately tries to rationalize away, with elaborate technical arguments, facts that for some reason don't fit his ideological articles of faith. If he is not interested in continuing this forum exchange, that's all the better. I shall then find more time for an analysis of his "notes" on the HC blog site, a more productive way to spend my posting time until MGK publish their response.
friedrichjansson wrote:It is not at all obvious - quite the contrary - from Taylor's text and references that that reference has anything to do with the passage Roberto quoted.

In fact, the document in question can be found, unfortunately with omissions, here and here. Due to the omissions it's impossible to be certain, but the part reproduced on those websites does contain a mention of the cremations, which however lacks any detailed description of how the cremations worked. The reference to the cremations is at the end of the document, and is not followed by any omission, so most likely the online versions linked above do contain all cremation-related information in the document in question. The text is the following:
Bergung der Gefallenen, auch soweit nicht verschüttet, mußte durch Kräfte des örtlichen LS-Leiters erfolgen, ebenso die Überführung nach den Friedhöfen. Mit Rücksicht auf die schnell fortschreitende Verwesung und bestehende außerordentliche Schwierigkeiten bei der Bergung, sowie Mangel an geeigneten Fahrzeugen zur Überführung auf Friedhöfe mit Zustimmung des Gauleiters und der Stadtverwaltung auf dem Altmarkt insgesamt 6865 Gefallene eingeäschert. Die Asche der Gefallenen wurde auf einen Friedhof überführt.
This fits entirely with what I have stated: there is no detailed documentation on the technique and execution of the Dresden cremations.
Well, what you might safely conclude from the contents of the quoted report, assuming there is no further detail about the cremation process in the omitted parts, is that this particular document contains no details on the technique and execution of the Dresden cremations. Nothing more, nothing less. As these details are obviously of interest to our discussion, and as FJ is refusing to discuss what can be concluded from the Dresden cremations about the Treblinka cremations (also) on grounds that Taylor's description of these cremations is un-sourced, I'll contact Mr. Taylor about the source of this detail:
Afterward, when the fire cooled down, it was estimated that between eight and ten cubic meters of ash covered the cobbled surface of the medieval square. The SS in charge of the burning had intended to transport the ashes out to the Heath Cemetery in boxes and sacks and bury them containers and all, but municipal parsimony triumphed. In the end the ashes were simply emptied out of their containers and into the prepared pits, thus enabling the valuable sacks and boxes to be reused.
Note that the previous parts of Taylor's description quoted here:
Corpses were shipped in and laid out ready for registration and, if possible, identification. Searching for ways of keeping them off the ground – and allowing a draft under the planned funeral pyres – workers found a solution in the wreck of a nearby department store, where massive window shutters had survived the bombing. They carried them from the ruins and set them down on the ground, making, as a contemporary grimly expressed it, "huge grill racks."
Large amounts of gasoline were trucked into the sealed city center. Teams poured petrol over the bodies as they lay piled on the shutters. Then the dead were burned at the rate of one pyre per day, with around five hundred corpses per pyre. The task was efficiently done. To reduce that number of human remains to fine ash without access to a purpose-built crematorium is a technically problematic process. It was carried out under the supervision of outside SS experts. They were said to be former staff from the notorious extermination camp at Treblinka.
are sourced to Götz Bergander's Dresden im Luftkrieg and Olaf Groehler's Der Bombenkrieg gegen Deutschland.
friedrichjansson wrote:Furthermore, Dresden is simply beside the point. One does not look to Dresden to determine how Treblinka (or Sobibor, or Belzec) cremations supposedly worked.
Oh, but one does look at Sherman's Georgia campaign and at these pictures? :lol:

Funny excuse we have here, considering that the Dresden pyres, as one can already see on the photographs thereof, are as close a match to the AR camps' pyres as one will probably find outside the context of the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews. The problem is that the comparison is inconvenient to FJ's articles of faith, which is why FJ tries to avoid it as much as possible.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by randomforumguy » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:40 am

Has anybody found that documentary yet ?


Roberto
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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by Roberto » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:26 pm

rollo the ganger wrote:Interesting photo:

http://www.buchenwald.de/en/565/
Of partially bent trolley rails?
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by rollo the ganger » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:52 pm

Roberto wrote:
rollo the ganger wrote:Interesting photo:

http://www.buchenwald.de/en/565/
Of partially bent trolley rails?
Partially bent is bent all the same. Yes, that is the name of this thread; "The rails would have bent in the heat"

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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by Roberto » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:25 am

rollo the ganger wrote:
Roberto wrote:
rollo the ganger wrote:Interesting photo:

http://www.buchenwald.de/en/565/
Of partially bent trolley rails?
Partially bent is bent all the same.
And doesn't look like it would have hindered another cremation, had there been time for one.
rollo the ganger wrote:Yes, that is the name of this thread; "The rails would have bent in the heat"
Except that FJ means railway rails, not trolley rails.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by rollo the ganger » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:41 am

Except that FJ means railway rails, not trolley rails.
Where do you get "trolley rails" The caption under the photo states [My emphasis] :
Dwight D. Eisenhower (centre) in front of a grid the SS had fashioned from railway tracks for the purpose of burning the corpses of dead inmates from the mass graves, April 12, 1945. Photo: Moore, U.S. Signal Corps. National Archives Washington
Why do you just make things up Roberto?

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