The rails would have bent in the heat

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friedrichjansson
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The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by friedrichjansson » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:04 pm

During his Georgia campaign, General Sherman ordered the railroads to be destroyed by heating the rails in a fire and then bending them beyond repair. You can watch Civil war reenactors bending modern rails to see how easy this is.

In the alleged cremation facilities at the Reinhardt camps, the rails would have been fully exposed to the heat of the fire. Arad says (p. 175) that the rails would glow from the heat. So how could the rails have held up the weight of 2000-3000 bodies, given that the spans were supposedly quite long?

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Friedrich Paul Berg
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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by Friedrich Paul Berg » Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:45 pm

For the holocausters, a rational scientific argument such as Jansson has just given means absolutely nothing if a "witness" can be persuaded, somehow, to say the exact opposite.

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Friedrich Paul Berg
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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by Roberto » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:54 pm

friedrichjansson wrote:During his Georgia campaign, General Sherman ordered the railroads to be destroyed by heating the rails in a fire and then bending them beyond repair. You can watch Civil war reenactors bending modern rails to see how easy this is.

In the alleged cremation facilities at the Reinhardt camps, the rails would have been fully exposed to the heat of the fire. Arad says (p. 175) that the rails would glow from the heat. So how could the rails have held up the weight of 2000-3000 bodies, given that the spans were supposedly quite long?
I'll take a closer look at FJ's rail-bending wisdom when I have more time, for now just some preliminary comments focusing on two remarks in FJ's article.
FJ wrote:It’s quite difficult to get answers to these questions, and entering into a detailed analysis of the witness accounts would take us off topic. Suffice it to say that the current consensus has cremation facilities 25-30 meters long, and is quite vague on the number of supporting pillars. Arad claims there were three pillars (two spans); the Wiernik model has four pillars (three spans), as does the Treblinka museum’s model, and the USHMM’s map. The Düsseldorf court’s map, on the other hand, shows a single span.
At least one eyewitness testimony suggests that the number of spans may have been larger. Ukrainian guard Pavel Vladimirovich Leleko, quoted here:
The presence of a pit underneath the grid, in which a fire was made in order to set the corpses on the grid on fire, also becomes apparent from the description provided by Ukrainian guard Pavel Vladimirovich Leleko[35]:

An incinerator from the burning of bodies was situated about 10 meters beyond the large gas chamber building. It had the shape of a cement pit about one meter deep and 20 meters long. A series of furnaces covered on the top with four rows of rails extended along the entire length of one of the walls of the pit. The bodies were laid on the rails, caught fire from the flames burning in the furnaces and burned. About 1000 bodies were burned simultaneously. The burning process lasted up to five hours.

Details about the construction of the grid were also mentioned in the judgment at the 1st Düsseldorf Treblinka trial (Kurt Franz et al)[36], which contains the following description (my translation):

After the most diverse burning attempts had been made for this purpose, a large burning facility was constructed. It consisted of concrete bases about 70 cm high, on which 5 to 6 railway rails about 25 to 30 meters long lay in small intervals.

A comparison between Leleko's description and the ones contained in the above-mentioned Düsseldorf judgment suggests that the "furnaces" mentioned by Leleko were subdivisions of the pit by concrete blocks placed at certain intervals across the pit, which gave this witness the impression that each part of the pit between its ends and a concrete block or in between concrete blocks, in which fire was burning, was a "furnace". The description in the first Düsseldorf judgment suggests that the concrete blocks stood 70 cm above ground, which can be matched with Leleko’s description by assuming that these were either blocks 1.70 meters high placed inside the pit and protruding from the pit for 70 cm, or blocks 70 cm high placed on the rims of the pit, the distance between the bottom of the rails and the bottom of the pit being, in any case, 1.70 meters.


The "series of furnaces" described by Leleko must have been the intervals between the concrete blocks, partly below and partly above ground, that supported the rails. Leleko's description suggests more than just three or four such intervals and a correspondingly higher number of rail spans. The weight placed on the rails is thus likely to have been supported by the concrete blocks on which they rested to a larger extent than if there had been just three or four spans. The width of these concrete blocks, about which there is no information, would also have influenced the load that the rails were capable of holding.
FJ wrote:Fires capable of cremating 2,000-3,000 bodies would have to be very intense. We can therefore be confident in asserting that in the Reinhardt cremation story, temperatures of over 900 C would have been reached in the rails, and that significantly higher temperatures are highly probable. This means that the rails would have lost 95% of their strength, if not more.

6.1 Temperature of the fire versus temperature of the steel

It might be objected that the above analysis overstates the strength reduction of rails in fire, because the temperature of the rails will not equal the temperature of the fire, so the rails will be stronger than might be thought based on the temperatures of wood-burning fires. This objection would be valid for a fire of short duration, but not for outdoor cremations, which need to last several hours at the least.
In this blog, I wrote the following:
Another approach to establishing the number of bodies that could be burned on one of the Treblinka grates is looking at the cremation grid on the Dresden Altmarkt. This grate was about 20 feet (ca. 6.1 meters) long according to David Irving[161], roughly one fourth or one fifth of the length of a Treblinka grate. Assuming the same proportion for the area, the Treblinka grids had an area 4 to 5 times larger than the grate on the Dresden Altmarkt. According to Taylor[162], the dead on the Altmarkt were burned at the rate of one pyre per day, with around five hundred corpses per pyre. Assuming that the height and density at which the bodies were piled up at Treblinka was no larger than at Dresden[163], a pyre with an area 4 to 5 times higher could thus have burned 2,000 to 2,500 bodies per day. Building a pyre this size did not necessarily take longer than at Dresden if a sufficiently large labor force was available, moreover as such labor force would be assisted by excavators (which were not available at Dresden)[164] and, unlike at Dresden, no time was spent trying to identify the victims.

A lower number of bodies per pyre was mentioned by Ukrainian guard Leleko[165], who testified that about 1,000 bodies were burned simultaneously. On the other hand, this witness mentioned that the burning process lasted "up to five hours", which could allow for more than one burning process per grid per day.
First of all, FJ is apparently assuming that the grates were exposed to a fire as hot as he postulates (temperatures above 900º Celsius) throughout the duration of the corpse incineration, which would be at least five hours (with 1,000 bodies) if one takes Leleko's testimony, longer than that with the 2,000 to 2,500 bodies I considered by comparing the size of the grate area on the Dresden Altmarkt with the size of the grate area at Treblinka and assuming that, if 500 corpses at a time had been burned on the Dresden grate area, then 4-5 times as many corpses could have been burned at a time on the Treblinka pyres with an area 4-5 times larger (a conservative calculation as the Treblinka pyres probably contained a larger proportion of children and most of the corpses burned on these pyres were in some stage of decomposition and thus considerably reduced in size). Was this necessarily so, i.e. were the grates necessarily exposed to a 900º C fire for a period of at least five hours? The initial fire lit under the rails must have been very strong and very intense, but did the fire under the rails remain this strong throughout the whole cremation process? Not likely. At a certain stage of the process cremation must have depended more on the corpses' own tissue, bone and fat, after what water was in the corpses (corpses dessicated by long decomposition periods probably didn't contain much water) had been evaporated and the corpses themselves had caught fire. A phenomenon deducted by Bruce Ettling from a carcass burning experiment, mentioned here (Bruce V. Ettling, "Consumption of an Animal Carcass in a Fire", in: The Journal of Criminal Law, Criminology, and Police Science, Vol. 60, No. 1 (Mar., 1969), pp. 131-132.), may have played an important part in the corpses' continuing to burn after the initial fire had become less intense:
The findings showed that for a ewe, and presumably for a human also, the body can be rather
thoroughly consumed by :fire from its own fat. A necessary condition is that the body be suspended
in such a way that it is over the fire which is fed from the body fat. Some related information was
found in an article concerning a Nazi extermination camp and its trouble destroying the corpses (3). Burning gasoline on piles of corpses on the ground did not consume the corpses. Eventually an "expert" was brought in who arranged the bodies on a rack with the corpses that appeared to contain some fat being placed on the bottom of the pile. A good fire beneath the rack caused fat to drip down and burn. The corpses which were thus over the fire instead of on the ground were reduced to ashes.
Second, the load that the Treblinka grates (resting on probably more than just three or four concrete blocks or rows of such blocks, see above) had to bear would depend not only on the number of bodies placed on top of them but also on the weight of these bodies. I calculated the average weight of a corpse cremated on the Treblinka grates at 18.95 kg (see this blog, Table 3.20). A load of 2,000 - 2,500 corpses would thus on average weigh 37,900 to 47,375 kg. If the load was just 1,000 corpses as per Leleko's testimony, the weight would be 18,950 kg. FJ is invited to demonstrate that a grate area of 66 m² (my estimate) to 90m² (Mattogno's estimate), consisting of rails lain at apparently not-so-large intervals over concrete blocks, could not have supported this weight load under the circumstances under which corpses were cremated at Treblinka.

Third: as mentioned above, I calculated the possible load of a Treblinka grate based on a comparison between the area of that grate and the area of the one much smaller grate on which 6,865 corpses were burned on the Dresden Altmarkt following the bombing attack on 13/14 February 1945. Pictures of what that grate looked like when loaded are available here, here and here. The image below shows the grate in operation, with what looks like ashes from a previous cremation in the foreground:

Image

Here I mention two sources (David Irving and Frederick Taylor) who described how the bodies were reduced to ashes on these grates (Taylor even provides details on how these ashes were disposed of), "four or five hundred at a time" (Irving).

One grate was all they had at Dresden, if I understood these authors correctly. So if the rails had bent under the heat or lost 95 % of their strength at every incineration, as FJ claims regarding the Treblinka rails, the job of cremating 6,865 corpses on the Altmarkt could not have been completed. Yet it obviously was. How does FJ explain this?

While FJ mulls over these questions, he may listen to this song about the Georgia campaign.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Ilol'd
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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by Ilol'd » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:14 pm

Roberto wrote:The initial fire lit under the rails must have been very strong and very intense, but did the fire under the rails remain this strong throughout the whole cremation process? Not likely.
Funny hearing that from an idiot that thinks fire is hottest when most of the combustible material has burnt away.

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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by Roberto » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:21 pm

Ilol'd wrote:
Roberto wrote:The initial fire lit under the rails must have been very strong and very intense, but did the fire under the rails remain this strong throughout the whole cremation process? Not likely.
Funny hearing that from an idiot that thinks fire is hottest when most of the combustible material has burnt away.
Funny reading that from an idiot who obviously hasn't understood that we're talking about a somewhat different pair of boots here.

And who hasn't yet answered this question I asked him on the Krema thread:
As you seem to know so much about cremation, let's look at Mr. Bohnert's description of the process, starting with the 30 minutes:
3.3. After 30 minutes
• The fracture gaps in the calvaria had considerably widened with boiling liquid, partly
also more solid, crumbly material exuding from the gaps. In about half the cases the
tabula externa disintegrated into fragments. The facial bones were calcined and
showed only sparse soft tissue remains adhering to them, if any.
• In all cases the thoracic and abdominal cavity was exposed. From the body cavities
exuded steaming, boiling liquid. The sternum was now destroyed in all cases. The
lateral parts of the ribs became visible with the front sections being calcined and bent
inward or outward (Fig. 1).
• The internal organs were blackened and shrunken. The intestine was protruding
above the level of the abdominal wall. The anterior parts were charred whereas moist
tissue could still be recognized in the more dorsal sections of the mesenterium.
• The arms showed small remains of shrunken, severely charred muscles. The lower
arms were mostly reduced to the proximal sections; in one case the arms had been
consumed completely by the fire.
• The tibiae and the distal parts of the thighs were largely free of soft tissue. The
exposed sections of the long bones of the extremities were calcined and showed
longitudinal fractures with rolled-up edges (Fig. 5).

3.4. After 40 minutes
• The calvaria had come off due to the fire so that the shrunken and superficially
blackened brain showed. The bones of the face, which were now completely free of
soft tissue and calcined, disintegrated into fragments. The soft tissues of the neck
were severely charred and shrunken; in half of the cases they were already
completely consumed by the fire.
• The ribs were free of any soft tissue up to the posterior axillary line; they were
calcined, twisted around their long axis and bent even stronger than described above
(Fig. 2).
• The chest and abdominal organs showed further shrinkage and a sponge-like surface
(Fig. 3). Intestine and mesenterium were reduced to a net-like structure. The
evaporation process had strongly declined.
• Except in case 12 the lower arms were destroyed in all cases. The upper arms were
largely free of soft tissue. The calcined humeri partly showed extensive longitudinal
fractures and in almost all cases the head of the humerus was visible.

3.5. After 50 minutes
• The facial bones had essentially disintegrated. The base of the skull was exposed.
• Especially the upper parts of the vertebral column tended to hyperextension. The
vertebral bodies were calcined and the intervertebral disks were missing. Continuity
was maintained only by the remains of the severely shrunken muscles of the neck.
• The internal organs meanwhile showed considerable shrinkage. In most cases only
the liver could still be recognized, although reduced to a sponge-like structure. The
soft tissues of the small pelvis, which had been protected for a long time, were
meanwhile consumed by the fire and the ilium showed only sparse rests of charred
soft tissue adhering to the bone.
• The arms were completely destroyed.
• The thighs were reduced to calcined bone stumps.

3.6. After 60 minutes
• The destruction of the skull had progressed to an extent leaving only the central parts
of the facial bones and the base of the skull.
• The intervertebral disks were destroyed; the vertebral column showed increasing
dorsal flexion. In some cases the torsos were already headless.
• The internal organs were largely reduced to ashes. The soft tissues of the pelvis were
totally consumed by the fire.
At which of these stages would you say the oven is hottest, and why?

And what would you say the corpse looks like at the time of greatest heat generation?

Like either of these:

Image

Or more destroyed than either of these?
Here's another video playing "They Laid Waste To Our Land", by the way, which also includes the "12 pounders". For fans of General Sherman like FJ and me. :mrgreen:
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Ilol'd
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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by Ilol'd » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Roberto wrote:Funny reading that from an idiot who obviously hasn't understood that we're talking about a somewhat different pair of boots here.
Nice excuse. Of course you're the only idiot here that actually believes that. Cute.
Roberto wrote:And who hasn't yet answered this question I asked him on the Krema thread:
Because I'm busy at the moment with more important stuff. But I guess a quick answer to this single question can be made.

The oven was hottest when the coffin was on fire. The second highest time was when the flesh and fat were burning, some 20-25 minutes in. When there are just bones or mostly bones the temperature would have been gradually decreasing, until eventually you have a "rugby football" in the oven, which probably happened somewhere at the 50-60 minute mark for the skeleton above.

The oven was not hottest on either of these photos, but before.
Roberto wrote:Or more destroyed than either of these?
Less destroyed, obviously.. Why did you leave "3.2. After 20 minutes" out of the citation? Never mind, I know the answer. It's because you're an idiot.

friedrichjansson
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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by friedrichjansson » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:04 am

1. Roberto appeals to Leleko's testimony to try to shorten the spans. The problem is, while Roberto claims that "Leleko's description suggests more than just three or four" spans, Leleko in fact gives no information on the number of "furnaces." Roberto is just inventing things as usual. Interestingly, Leleko's testimony agrees with Wiernik's on the number of rails - four (others have 2, 5, or 6). If we are going to try to make anything of this agreement we will have to go along with Wiernik's model, which shows three spans.

2. Roberto tries to reduce the temperature that the rails would have reached by claiming that the intensity of the fire would not have been high for a full five hours. But as I showed (section 6.1) that the rails would be fully up to the ambient temperature in less than 90 minutes, this is irrelevant. The time for which high temperatures were sustained is irrelevant because my analysis did not rely on creep or any other time dependent phenomenon, although these phenomena would apply; if they were included my conclusions would only be strengthened.

It is interesting that Roberto seems to think that the temperatures in these miracle pyres capable of incinerating 2500 bodies in 66 square meters were lower than the recorded temperatures in a simple pyre cremation of a single body.

3. Roberto appeals to the Dresden Altmarket. But as we have no adequate information on the details of cremation there, this is a futile gesture. Further, the spans in the available images of the grids in the Dresden Altmarket are only around one meter long, which has no similarity to the spans in the alleged Reinhardt cremation facilities, as has been shown in section 2 here as well as here. Given that deflection goes with the 4th power of span length (given fixed load per meter) the factor of 10 difference in span length means a factor of 10000 difference in deflection. There would also be a temperature difference resulting from positioning most fuel above the grate rather than below it. Roberto is correct that Irving and Taylor claim cremations on a grid fueled by gasoline, but they do not appear to cite any sources to substantiate this. I am extremely skeptical of any system of open air mass incineration fueled by gasoline. Aside from the fact that gasoline burns off too fast to be any good for body incineration, igniting such a system would lead to something like this or this, only much worse.

I do not have enough information to make definite assertions on the details of cremation in Dresden, but given the poverty of the documentation and Dresden's role in German propaganda, it is impossible to accept an analysis, based solely on scattered photographs, which contradicts all of the best information on body incineration.

4. Roberto tries to make the weight of the corpses bear on the concrete blocks rather than on the spans. But if the blocks are wide enough for very much of the weight to bear directly on them, then the bodies lying on the blocks will be completely insulated from the flames, which is a non-workable incineration scheme.

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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by Roberto » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:22 am

friedrichjansson wrote:1. Roberto appeals to Leleko's testimony to try to shorten the spans. The problem is, while Roberto claims that "Leleko's description suggests more than just three or four" spans, Leleko in fact gives no information on the number of "furnaces." Roberto is just inventing things as usual.
As usual I don't make things up. Leleko stated that "A series of furnaces covered on the top with four rows of rails extended along the entire length of one of the walls of the pit." Not two, not three, not four, but "a series", suggesting that there were more such intervals than the witness could take in at one glance and bothered to count.
friedrichjansson wrote:Interestingly, Leleko's testimony agrees with Wiernik's on the number of rails - four (others have 2, 5, or 6). If we are going to try to make anything of this agreement we will have to go along with Wiernik's model, which shows three spans.
Wiernik's model is just that, a model. It need not have accurately reproduced every detail. And Leleko's testimony suggests more than three spans.
friedrichjansson wrote:2. Roberto tries to reduce the temperature that the rails would have reached by claiming that the intensity of the fire would not have been high for a full five hours. But as I showed (section 6.1) that the rails would be fully up to the ambient temperature in less than 90 minutes, this is irrelevant.
Unless, of course, ambient temperature dropped within that time because the fire below the rails became less intensive.
friedrichjansson wrote: The time for which high temperatures were sustained is irrelevant because my analysis did not rely on creep or any other time dependent phenomenon, although these phenomena would apply; if they were included my conclusions would only be strengthened.
Time is irrelevant, all of a sudden?
It might be objected that the above analysis overstates the strength reduction of rails in fire, because the temperature of the rails will not equal the temperature of the fire, so the rails will be stronger than might be thought based on the temperatures of wood-burning fires. This objection would be valid for a fire of short duration, but not for outdoor cremations, which need to last several hours at the least.

The rate at which steel is heated in fires is analysed in terms of section factor = (perimeter of beam exposed to flames)/(cross sectional area). For a rail weighing 60 kg per meter, we have a cross sectional area of around 0.0075 square meters and a exposed perimeter of perhaps 70 cm; this gives a section factor of 93 m^-1. As the following chart shows, such a beam will be fully up to the ambient temperature within 90 minutes.
---
friedrichjansson wrote:It is interesting that Roberto seems to think that the temperatures in these miracle pyres capable of incinerating 2500 bodies in 66 square meters were lower than the recorded temperatures in a simple pyre cremation of a single body.
What temperatures for a simple pyre cremation of a single body did you have in mind?

We're talking about a pyre that when burning would look like this:

Image

except that it would be 4-5 times larger (the "miraculous" capacity I calculated, and please bear in mind that I'm also fine with with the 1,000 bodies per pyre mentioned by Leleko, simply results from differences in size multiplied with the number of bodies burned on the Dresden pyre, without taking into account that the bodies on the Treblinka pyre were somewhat lighter than those on the Altmarkt pyre). Just how hot would this pyre be, and what temperature would bear on the rails?
friedrichjansson wrote:3. Roberto appeals to the Dresden Altmarket. But as we have no adequate information on the details of cremation there, this is a futile gesture.
Actually we have detailed information from both Irving and Taylor about the Dresden pyres, and additionally we have photographs showing those pyres before they were set on fire and while they were in operation.
friedrichjansson wrote:Further, the spans in the available images of the grids in the Dresden Altmarket are only around one meter long, which has no similarity to the spans in the alleged Reinhardt cremation facilities, as has been shown in section 2 here as well as here. Given that deflection goes with the 4th power of span length (given fixed load per meter) the factor of 10 difference in span length means a factor of 10000 difference in deflection.
Spans one meter long?

Where do you see spans one meter long in this image?

Image
friedrichjansson wrote:There would also be a temperature difference resulting from positioning most fuel above the grate rather than below it.
Which would be?
friedrichjansson wrote:Roberto is correct that Irving and Taylor claim cremations on a grid fueled by gasoline, but they do not appear to cite any sources to substantiate this.
Why, because I didn't transcribe their footnotes in this blog? I don't think that Taylor sucked this kind of detail:
Afterward, when the fire cooled down, it was estimated that between eight and ten cubic meters of ash covered the cobbled surface of the medieval square. The SS in charge of the burning had intended to transport the ashes out to the Heath Cemetery in boxes and sacks and bury them containers and all, but municipal parsimony triumphed. In the end the ashes were simply emptied out of their containers and into the prepared pits, thus enabling the valuable sacks and boxes to be reused.
out of his fingers. The sources, which I will try to find out more about, must have been documents kept in the Dresden city archives and/or interviews with contemporary eyewitnesses.
friedrichjansson wrote:I am extremely skeptical of any system of open air mass incineration fueled by gasoline.
And who are you, other than another "Revisionist" who tries to "scientifically" rationalize his preconceived notions?
friedrichjansson wrote:Aside from the fact that gasoline burns off too fast to be any good for body incineration, igniting such a system would lead to something like this or this, only much worse.
Someone seems to have been careless when spilling the gasoline, and used a match or lighter when he should have used something like a long torch. But the folks who mounted the Dresden pyre were not amateurs, according to Taylor:
To reduce that number of human remains to fine ash without access to a purpose-built crematorium is a technically problematic process. It was carried out under the supervision of outside SS experts. They were said to be former staff from the notorious extermination camp at Treblinka.
---
friedrichjansson wrote:I do not have enough information to make definite assertions on the details of cremation in Dresden, but given the poverty of the documentation and Dresden's role in German propaganda, it is impossible to accept an analysis, based solely on scattered photographs, which contradicts all of the best information on body incineration.
Or what FJ calls the "best information", and as concerns Dresden we're not talking about "German propaganda". We're essentially talking about a recent study by a British author (Taylor) based on the sober information available in the Dresden city archives, which was never used for propaganda purposes precisely because it belied propaganda legends and popular myths spun around the Dresden bombing. "Poverty of documentation" is a lame excuse when the essential information has been provided by Irving and Taylor and there are photographs showing the pyres in all their splendor. All the more so when poorer documentation about the Treblinka pyres, of which there are no photographs, doesn't keep you from making the most definite assertions regarding these pyres. Here's another photograph of a Dresden pyre prior to lighting:

Image
friedrichjansson wrote:4. Roberto tries to make the weight of the corpses bear on the concrete blocks rather than on the spans. But if the blocks are wide enough for very much of the weight to bear directly on them, then the bodies lying on the blocks will be completely insulated from the flames, which is a non-workable incineration scheme.
Completely insulated from the flames? Let's say there were sufficient blocks to make for span lengths of of only one meter, as is claimed regarding the Dresden pyres. Why would the bodies have been insulated from wood piled below each span and set on fire?
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by Roberto » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:31 am

Ilol'd wrote:
Roberto wrote:Funny reading that from an idiot who obviously hasn't understood that we're talking about a somewhat different pair of boots here.
Nice excuse. Of course you're the only idiot here that actually believes that. Cute.
Lol'ing fellow is freaking out again and trying to substitute invective for arguments. :lol:

Re the AR camps we're talking about a fire lit underneath the rails that would start out strong and intense and then gradually become less strong and intense after the wood was largely combusted, like a camp fire becomes less strong and intense after the wood has been largely combusted.
Ilol'd wrote:
Roberto wrote:And who hasn't yet answered this question I asked him on the Krema thread:
Because I'm busy at the moment with more important stuff. But I guess a quick answer to this single question can be made.

The oven was hottest when the coffin was on fire. The second highest time was when the flesh and fat were burning, some 20-25 minutes in. When there are just bones or mostly bones the temperature would have been gradually decreasing, until eventually you have a "rugby football" in the oven, which probably happened somewhere at the 50-60 minute mark for the skeleton above.

The oven was not hottest on either of these photos, but before.
Roberto wrote:Or more destroyed than either of these?
Less destroyed, obviously.. Why did you leave "3.2. After 20 minutes" out of the citation? Never mind, I know the answer. It's because you're an idiot.
No, it's because I'm interested in what stage of Bohnert's cremation process corresponds to the stage 55 minutes after beginning of cremation in the experiments observed by Kessler, and thanks for the instructive self-projecting invective.

Now, please answer my question regarding the stages whose descriptions I quoted, not any stages before that.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Ilol'd
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Re: The rails would have bent in the heat

Post by Ilol'd » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:24 am

Roberto wrote:Re the AR camps we're talking about a fire lit underneath the rails that would start out strong and intense and then gradually become less strong and intense after the wood was largely combusted, like a camp fire becomes less strong and intense after the wood has been largely combusted.
Remember, you're the idiot that suggested glowing ember is hotter than fire, and that an oven is hottest when bones are burning. Such a pyre fire at AR would last hours anyway before it weakened. That is, if lots and lots of wood were used.
Roberto wrote:No, it's because I'm interested in what stage of Bohnert's cremation process corresponds to the stage 55 minutes after beginning of cremation in the experiments observed by Kessler, and thanks for the instructive self-projecting invective.

Now, please answer my question regarding the stages whose descriptions I quoted, not any stages before that.
Bohnert's 55 minutes correspond to Kessler's 55 minutes, give or take 5 minutes. What the hell are you babbling about?

Highest maximum temperature some 10-15 minutes in after coffin strongly burning, probably 1000°C.
Second highest some 20-25 minutes in after flesh and fat strongly burning, probably 900°C.
After there is no more or less fat and flesh to burn, the temperature would gradually be decreasing. At 30-35 min, probably 850°C.
At 40-45 min, probably 800°C.
At 50-55 min, probably 750°C.
After that time you have a "rugby football" in the oven and further lowering of the temperature.

Of course, I have no source to base my temperatures on, so they might be lower or higher. But the fact is, the temperature would have been decreasing after 20-25 minutes, and the oven is not hottest on either of those photos you're parading around.

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