Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

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Huntinger
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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Huntinger »

Turnagain wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:15 am
My question is, were these small groups the sole occupants of the trains or were there other passengers? Any thoughts or speculations about that?
Trains are expensive to run and using up resources that are needed for the war effort. The phenol from coal for instance is used to make trinitrophenol an explosive for shells and toluene to make trinitrotoluene, the main explosive in bombs; to make a train economically viable it would have to be full to the brim with either human stock or produce such as stones from the quarry or food. Each trip would need to be carefully planned to get the maximum benefit from each train; they would not run on timetables but only when it was full.

A few times in the video the groups were typically 300 -500; the camp acted more like a stop over (gasthaus without the bier) where people were sorted for work placements depending on work requirements and the skill sets needed. This is also the theme from the Dutch who went to multiple camps including Sobibor, Majdanek and Auschwitz II (despite their embellishments to shock as Juden do). To work it out a copy of all the train schedules are needed not just the ones left which by coincidence come from the Warsaw uprising. Unsurprisingly they are missing.


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Turnagain
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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Turnagain »

Huntinger wrote:
A few times in the video the groups were typically 300 -500; the camp acted more like a stop over (gasthaus without the bier) where people were sorted for work placements depending on work requirements and the skill sets needed.
Indeed, but were these small groups the only passengers on the trains? A couple of the witnesses mention whole trainloads of deportees. One of the men with a group of 500 were packed so densely into the cars that there was only room to stand up. Why would the Germans go to the trouble of pushing the Jews into just 3-4 cars if they had an entire empty train at their disposal? That doesn't make any sense at all.

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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

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Turnagain wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:04 am
Huntinger wrote:
A few times in the video the groups were typically 300 -500; the camp acted more like a stop over (gasthaus without the bier) where people were sorted for work placements depending on work requirements and the skill sets needed.
Indeed, but were these small groups the only passengers on the trains? A couple of the witnesses mention whole trainloads of deportees. One of the men with a group of 500 were packed so densely into the cars that there was only room to stand up. Why would the Germans go to the trouble of pushing the Jews into just 3-4 cars if they had an entire empty train at their disposal? That doesn't make any sense at all.
It seems that some carriages are pre allocated to various stop off points; the other cars could have cattle in them like they are designed or other stock picked up at other points. The average German would not like to eat cabbages from a car where people had been in. However, at best all we can do without information is to second guess. It would only make sense to use a train to its maximum capacity; otherwise trucks would be more economical.

The trains are an economic system where the SS paid for some carriages for Jude cartage while some others paid for coal transports or cattle etc; it is all worked out before hand. To save money the SS being a little stingy simply cut costs and stuffed as many people in as possible. They were not going far, a few hours journey at best so no issues.

Most of the transports were on regular trains; though as I understand it Eichmann "Chartered" trains for Jude removal from Hungary to the Reich. Peter Lantos ended up in Deutschland.


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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

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Hunt, that still doesn't answer the question of whether or not the small groups of Jews were the only passengers on the trains that left Treblinka.

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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

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Turnagain wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:49 am
Hunt, that still doesn't answer the question of whether or not the small groups of Jews were the only passengers on the trains that left Treblinka.
As Treblinka was a rock quarry and rocks were needed for all sorts of industries, it is highly likely that rocks would have been the main cargo, with a few carriages attached for people. This used to happen in the days of coal when steam engines carting coal would have a few carriages attached at the front or rear for passengers. It would be economical to have loads of one sort or another going both ways. If you owned a trucking company transporting ice from Anchorage to Miami; I am sure you would wish to return with a truck load of sand or something than come back empty. ;) I am sure the Alaskans would prefer a truckload of Miami warmth than sand. :)


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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

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Hunt, you're talking through your hat. First off, from the photographs T-1 was a sand quarry, not gravel. Rock or more properly shot-rock is a whole different ball game. Aggregates are hauled in hopper cars. Not boxcars or cattle cars. Hopper cars have been around since the mid 19th century and the idea of bottom unloading freight wagons go back before there were any railroads. Bottom hoppers are still in common use. There are even bottom hopper trailers for eighteen wheelers. I know. I still own one.

Trains leaving T-II would NOT have been used to haul sand or even other aggregates. How the hell would you load/unload them? By hand with shovels and brooms? If cattle cars were indeed employed to haul people, how would you carry sand in them? The sand would simply run out through the slats.

Your idea that the SS were a stingy bunch and wouldn't pay for more cartage than absolutely necessary is viable. I haven't any idea of how the contracts were set up to move the Jews. However, that still leaves the question of whether or not the trains hauled other Jews besides the groups mentioned by the witnesses. I didn't hear any Jews saying that they were the only passengers on the entire train when it left T-2. Got any other ideas?

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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

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Turnagain wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:04 am

Your idea that the SS were a stingy bunch and wouldn't pay for more cartage than absolutely necessary is viable. I haven't any idea of how the contracts were set up to move the Jews. However, that still leaves the question of whether or not the trains hauled other Jews besides the groups mentioned by the witnesses. I didn't hear any Jews saying that they were the only passengers on the entire train when it left T-2. Got any other ideas?
Who said that the whole train was cattle cars? A few perhaps. I think I mentioned before that I once thought TII was a platform for loading the quarry material. While the area around there is Sandy Loam the quarry was gravel, probably alluvial. Some of the machinery often spoke about may have been suitable for loading onto cars; I doubt if the laborers could load a set of wagons quick enough. However, it is possible that the wagons are left their to fill and the train merely connects with them when they are full. Note that some of those witnesses, got off the train only to get back on the same train a short while later. Also plenty of inmates were released from TI as the average duration was about 3 months from memory, so no doubt they would have caught the train in dribs and drabs. Good thoughts and worthwhile putting time into thinking about it; it might link up with some document in the future.
A huge part of this hoax is of course the missing transport schedules; deliberate of course and we know who. ;)

Stingy would not be the right word, they would probably put the Scots and Juden to shame; these camps and schedules were run by the SS economics branch. I think you can see a potential economics co operation between the Reich secretary for finance Fritz Reinhardt, his Zollgrenzschutz and the SS economics division.


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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:15 am
Huntinger wrote:
Examples of people transited are found at CODOH.
Most of the witnesses say that they were part of a group of men or of a group of women. They were then loaded on box cars (cattle cars?) and sent elsewhere. However, they don't say that they were the only people being loaded on the train. Only that their group was loaded as a group into one or more cars. My question is, were these small groups the sole occupants of the trains or were there other passengers? Any thoughts or speculations about that?
What, can you not be bothered to find out yourself? Or, do you not know how to? The answer is in the interviews Eric Hunt used in his "Treblinka Archaeology Hoax" and "Majdanek Gas Chamber Myth" videos.

The witnesses said those not selected went further into TII and they left in smaller transports, never to see any of those left behind again.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:32 pm
The witnesses said those not selected went further into TII and they left in smaller transports, never to see any of those left behind again.
All of the mainstream witnesses produced on Treblinka so far are liars so please stop using them; especially due to their links with the polnischen underground; of course in war if people are separated it is unlikely one will see them again. It is just like your old school mates, most of them you will never see again which does not imply they were murdered.


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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

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Treblinka station master Franciszek Zabecki, writes that six transports “went via Treblinka in transit” in August-September 1943:
  • “On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews ‘PJ 201’ (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
  • On 19 August, the transport ‘PJ 203’ (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
  • On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, ‘PJ 204’ (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
  • On 24 August, transport ‘PJ 209’ (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
  • On 8 September, transport ‘PJ 211’ (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin, and
  • On 17 September, transport ‘PJ 1025’ (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski[68] was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibór).”
According to Reitlinger, waybills from the Königsberg office of the German State Railways reveal that five special trains, comprising in total 266 cars, left Bialystok for Treblinka between August 21 and 27, 1943. A railway schedule cited by Z. Łukaszkiewicz lists 8 planned “special trains for the transport of resettlers running from Białystok to Małkinia, destination Treblinka,” comprised of 303 cars.

24,000 Białystok Juden– i.e. all from the evacuated ghetto, considering the losses of lives in connection with the failed ghetto uprising at the time – were brought to Majdanek. Treblinka served as a stop-over for transports with the Lublin district as their destination. It would appear that the KZ II Treblinka had delousing facilities. These people were trouble and could be given work permits to work in the RKU or Ostland hence the incarceration.

While some people were working on farms, the skill set was outside most Juden being city dwellers for the most part and business people. Many were transported to drain the swamps of Pripyat.

On May 19, 1944, the German-Jewish New York weekly Aufbau reported:
“An eyewitness, who arrived in Switzerland, described there how thousands of Polish and other Jews were sent to the Konskie swamp in Poland in order to drain the marshland. Hundreds of these Jews die daily from malaria and malnourishment, but their thinned-out columns are replenished by a steady influx of new arrivals from France. The German military authorities use the drained marshland for the construction of fortifications in different parts of occupied Poland.”


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