New Light on the Fate of the Hungarian Jews

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Nessie
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Re: New Light on the Fate of the Hungarian Jews

Post by Nessie » Wed May 16, 2018 5:05 am

Werd wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:53 am
- “June 1, 1944. No. 1600. Crematory administration. Object: Repair of 30
oven doors in crematoria III and IV, as well as supply of 4 pcs. fire hooks
[...]. Finished: June 7, 1944. ”
30 oven doors damaged by and on May 31. So Nazis used ovens with broken doors that didn't fully seal when closed. :lol: I'm dealing with a lunatic here.
You do not know that is what was wrong with them!!!!!

You are alleging that all the doors broke at exactly the same time and only one at a time as the entire crematoria facilities were closed. You are the lunatic!!!
you keep on lying I said there was no evidence they were all damaged. I never said that.
You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You don't really believe they were damaged if you say they continued to use the 4 Birkenau crematoria. I already explained:
the document clearly states 1-4 inclusive were in need of repair by and on May 31. Stop with the red herrings about June. The work BEGAN on those 4 crematoria a few days into June. READ CAREFULLY.
June 7, 1944. No. 1617...Daily repairs on crematoria 1 – 4 from June 3 – July 20, 1944...Finished: July 4, 1944...Order no. 1617 refers to...no. 337/4 of May 31, 1944,...the damages to be repaired had been observed prior to that date these documents prove that on May 31, 1944, the four Birkenau crematoria were under repair, and that explains why they do not emit any smoke on the corresponding photographs.
So 1-4 in Birkenau were in need of repair by and on May 31 and the work didn't start until June 3. If your theory that they could still use ovens if the things I mentioned breaking actually happened, then WHY WOULD THEY NEED TO BOTHER TO DO REPAIRS AT ALL YOU IDIOT? Why fix something that apparently isn't necessary and doesn't hinder normal operation? :lol: Can you please use common sense?
Servicing and maintenance is needed on everything that operates mechanically. Repairs and fixing is part of keeping the kremas going. Identifying problems and fixing prior to break down is normal for any mechanic.
There would be a document mentioning and/or listing the damages but then being given a direct order to not bother fixing them and continue burning Jews dead from natural causes there anyway. Sadly, that document doesn't exist. Because that's not how Nazis did things.
This whole claim they still operated the ovens with significant damages to them finds no proof from any witness or document. It's something you just made up when confronted with the documents Mattogno found. You had to put an incorrect spin on it and demand we believe it without evidence.
Nothing about closing the kremas. Instead all work to keep them going.
Show me the document that says the Nazis continued to operate ovens with 30 broken muffle doors that needed fixing. :D
Show me the document that dealt with the closure of all the kremas at the same time. Neither of us have such which is why we need to look at other evidence and issues;

Now, the issue you do ignore;

We should move on and discuss your claims about missing Jews. Time to develop your claim they went missing-

Where did they go missing, as in where were they last seen?
How many are missing?

Still awaiting your answer.

Then, why should anyone believe what you cannot evidence? You have continually dodged the difficult questions. You do understand that to anyone who reads this, that looks very bad for you?

Still awaiting your answer.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: New Light on the Fate of the Hungarian Jews

Post by Nessie » Wed May 16, 2018 5:08 am

Werd, this thread is about the fate of the Hungarian Jews. I get you think they were not gassed and cremated because all the kremas could not cope, broke down, it was not possible, therefore they lived.

This thread needs to get back on topic, so any more about ovens is going to be ignored. Now, the issue you do ignore;

We should move on and discuss your claims about missing Jews. Time to develop your claim they went missing-

Where did they go missing, as in where were they last seen?
How many are missing?

Still awaiting your answer.

Then, why should anyone believe what you cannot evidence? You have continually dodged the difficult questions. You do understand that to anyone who reads this, that looks very bad for you?

Still awaiting your answer.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
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Re: New Light on the Fate of the Hungarian Jews

Post by Werd » Wed May 16, 2018 5:12 am

Nessie wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 5:05 am
You are alleging that all the doors broke at exactly the same time
No I am saying that by and on May 31 all 30 were all broken and therefore not in use. Proof? They were the same way the next day on June 1.
Servicing and maintenance is needed on everything that operates mechanically.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove here.
Neither of us have such which is why we need to look at other evidence and issues;
See that? If Nessie can inject false skepticism into my view, then he can bring me down to his level and then launch his famous negatively argued, non sequitor that excluded the middle of no gassings and no easily traceable Jews. You're still dodging this:
If your theory that they could still use ovens if the things I mentioned breaking actually happened, then WHY WOULD THEY NEED TO BOTHER TO DO REPAIRS AT ALL YOU IDIOT? Why fix something that apparently isn't necessary and doesn't hinder normal operation? :lol: Can you please use common sense?
Now Nessie is trying to avoid talking about ovens. Because he wants to focus on his world view that is upheld by that negative fallacy non sequitor, middle excluding argument that he loves so much. The problem is that as I already explained, you can't talk about dead gassed Jews without talking about the ovens. When you figure out what the ovens were and were NOT capable of, THEN we can figure out the Jews are missing and not murdered. But Nessie will have none of that. He will exclude the middle without justification (fallacy as already explained) and he will continue to believe nonsense about Auschwitz ovens.
viewtopic.php?p=124940#p124940
That is until he keeps getting reminded of how it leads him to absurdity. Then he wants to stop talking about ovens when he realizes he's truly losing... :lol:
Last edited by Werd on Wed May 16, 2018 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Nessie
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Re: New Light on the Fate of the Hungarian Jews

Post by Nessie » Wed May 16, 2018 5:16 am

Werd, this thread is about the fate of the Hungarian Jews. I get you think they were not gassed and cremated because all the kremas could not cope, broke down, it was not possible, therefore they lived.

This thread needs to get back on topic, so any more about ovens is going to be ignored. We will just have to agree to disagree whether or ongoing maintenance is normal or not and if it needs the closure of the entire krema complex or not. Now, the issue you do ignore;

We should move on and discuss your claims about missing Jews. Time to develop your claim they went missing-

Where did they go missing, as in where were they last seen?
How many are missing?

Still awaiting your answer.

Then, why should anyone believe what you cannot evidence? You have continually dodged the difficult questions. You do understand that to anyone who reads this, that looks very bad for you?

Still awaiting your answer.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
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Re: New Light on the Fate of the Hungarian Jews

Post by Werd » Wed May 16, 2018 5:17 am

This thread needs to get back on topic, so any more about ovens is going to be ignored.
Topic title: the Fate of the Hungarian Jews
The ovens were supposed to have been part of their fate on May 31. Looks like that isn't panning out for you. :lol:

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Nessie
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Re: New Light on the Fate of the Hungarian Jews

Post by Nessie » Wed May 16, 2018 5:20 am

Werd wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 5:12 am
....The problem is that as I already explained, you can't talk about dead gassed Jews without talking about the ovens. When you figure out what the ovens were and were NOT capable of, THEN we can figure out the Jews are missing and not murdered.....
You are inventing a road block to suppress discussion about claim they are missing not dead. Time to develop your claim they went missing-

Where did they go missing, as in where were they last seen?
How many are missing?

Still awaiting your answer.

Then, why should anyone believe what you cannot evidence? You have continually dodged the difficult questions. You do understand that to anyone who reads this, that looks very bad for you?

Still awaiting your answer.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: New Light on the Fate of the Hungarian Jews

Post by Nessie » Wed May 16, 2018 5:21 am

Werd wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 5:17 am
This thread needs to get back on topic, so any more about ovens is going to be ignored.
Topic title: the Fate of the Hungarian Jews
The ovens were supposed to have been part of their fate on May 31. Looks like that isn't panning out for you. :lol:
Indeed the ovens were part of their fate, if like me you say that is where they ended. You claim that cannot have happened, so time to develop your claim they went missing-

Where did they go missing, as in where were they last seen?
How many are missing?

Still awaiting your answer.

Then, why should anyone believe what you cannot evidence? You have continually dodged the difficult questions. You do understand that to anyone who reads this, that looks very bad for you?

Still awaiting your answer.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
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Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:38 am
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Re: New Light on the Fate of the Hungarian Jews

Post by Werd » Wed May 16, 2018 5:23 am

You are inventing a road block to suppress discussion about claim they are missing not dead.
Nope. Just pointing out the obvious.
Topic title: the Fate of the Hungarian Jews
The ovens were supposed to have been part of their fate on May 31.
You:
Indeed the ovens were part of their fate, if like me you say that is where they ended.
And it's my right to challenge that for May 31 with whatever evidence I can find or that I can find others have found. Non gassed Jews can also be non-easily traceable.
viewtopic.php?p=125126#p125126

And, from the OP:
Stark's work has exposed him to some criticism, and perhaps because of this he has revised his calculations. Originally, he estimated the total loss of life for Hungarian Jews at 390,000, but in a recent study he has raised that number to about 500,000.[see note] The point, as far as our analysis is concerned, however, is that any increase in the number of Hungarian survivors generally increases the number of Hungarian Jews who survived the summer 1944 deportations.

To put it another way: it is generally conceded that about 500,000 Hungarian Jews were deported in 1944: these include the assumed 430,000 deported May through July, and another 50,000 or more deported to the Austrian border in the fall.[see note] Of this number, it is universally conceded that about 100,000-120,000 returned from deportation. Assuming a proportional split, this means that about 20 percent of the Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz returned home.[see note]

Yet Stark points out that there were reasons not to return home, and, if returning home, not to declare one's Jewish identity. First, there was the psychological dread of returning home and failing to find one's family.[see note] Second, there was the fact that the Red Army typically seized Hungarian Jewish men and dragged them off to forced labor in the Soviet Union (Stark estimates that 30,000 Hungarian Jews went from one dictatorial system to the other: they were never heard from again).[see note] Third, Hungarian Jews were on a path of heavy assimilation even before the war, and there would be little reason for many to return to the community after the war, especially in view of the severe persecution Jews had just endured.[see note] Yet precisely such a failure to be counted in the Jewish community in the postwar period would have contributed to artificially low numbers of returnees. The World Jewish Congress, after all, was interested in determining the size of Jewish communities, not in counting Jews by racial criteria as was the case under the Nazi, Horthy, or Arrow Cross regimes.

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Nessie
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Re: New Light on the Fate of the Hungarian Jews

Post by Nessie » Wed May 16, 2018 5:47 am

Again, I get that, the ovens could not cope and you do not think you can be expected to trace any of the Jews not selected work, anywhere, ever. Now, please stop ignoring my questions;

- Where did they go missing, as in where were they last seen? Do you accept the last sighting was after being selected not to work, they were seen heading for the kremas and there are photos to show them outside the kremas?

- How many are missing? Don't just copy and paste from the OP. Be specific, how many went missing?

- Then, why should anyone believe what you cannot evidence? Why should anyone believe they left the camp, when despite numerous witnesses, no one ever saw those not selected to work leave Birkenau, on any day, not just May 31st?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
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Re: New Light on the Fate of the Hungarian Jews

Post by Werd » Wed May 16, 2018 5:59 am

Where did they go missing, as in where were they last seen? Do you accept the last sighting was after being selected not to work, they were seen heading for the kremas and there are photos to show them outside the kremas?

- How many are missing? Don't just copy and paste from the OP. Be specific, how many went missing?
Hard to tell for sure.
- Then, why should anyone believe what you cannot evidence?
Same type of question I have always had for you regarding ovens and aerial photos. :lol:

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