Ovens

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Werd
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Re: Ovens

Post by Werd » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:47 pm

Nessie wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:31 am
The letter shows that the plan was to cremate 4 bodies at a time.
Where's the physical proof it was possible to cremate 4 bodies in 30 minutes in one muffle? Any cremation experiments backing that up?
Multiple body cremations is confirmed by the lack of evidence of mass departures from the camp.
So the answer is still no. Nessie has no recourse to a scientific cremation experiment bearing out what Tauber claims. That's why Nessie doesn't want to judge ovens by looking at ovens. He hates comparing apples with apples. The sign of a disruptive troll. Nessie in a nutshell:
"This television model made by this company in this year has a lower contrast level than other models."
How do you know?
"Well I have found models made by this company a few years prior and they ALL have the same low level of contrast."
Anything else?
"Actually yes, I found someone conducted an experiment with this exact model that is on the market now and is only a few years old. They turned it on, checked the levels and compared it with other televisions that are just a little older and boom, they all have the same low levels of contrast."
Yeah well what about what this guy said about it? He never built any of these things himself and he's not an expert by any means but he claims that they have a higher level of contrast than previously assumed. He swears he saw it.
"What experimental data did he provide?"
Look I admit there is no data yet backing up his claim, but he doesn't have to give any data. He saw it. He says so. That's good enough. You just have to prove that it doesn't.
"But I already have the data supporting my side. It's on these pages. Besides, that's the fallacy of argument from ignorance."
No, you're committing the fallacy of if not A then B.


That's what Nessie does. When caught in a fallacy because the scientific/experimental evidence does not back his side, he desperately has to accuse others of a fallacy to try and stay in the debate.
Next.
Until Mattogno produces an actual experiment showing cremating four bodies is impossible,
He cited many examples. And they showed that one body in one muffle takes longer than 30 minutes. Nevermind 4! :lol:
The evidence that bodies also fuel the process comes from one of the engineers for the Birkenau kremas.
The amount of coke and heat energy it takes to break open one body and begin to expose the grease and fat for it to run out, CAN NOT ALSO BE THE SAME AMOUNT THAT CAN BREAK OPEN TWO CORPSES TO RELEASE THE FAT.
Nessie ignores facts.
viewtopic.php?p=121693#p121693
The sign of a disruptive troll.

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NSDAP
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Re: Ovens

Post by NSDAP » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:06 am

Werd wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:47 pm
The evidence that bodies also fuel the process comes from one of the engineers for the Birkenau kremas.
The amount of coke and heat energy it takes to break open one body and begin to expose the grease and fat for it to run out, CAN NOT ALSO BE THE SAME AMOUNT THAT CAN BREAK OPEN TWO CORPSES TO RELEASE THE FAT.
Blake claims that the Auschwitz ovens could act as incinerators with multiple people put in at a time. This is also cited on the internet.
It was calculated that all four of Auschwitz II's crematoria had the capacity to cremate a total of 8000 bodies per day, although the actual numbers were usually lower. From 1942 until spring 1944 about 1000 people per day were transported to Auschwitz, although not all of them were killed. In the summer of 1944, almost 440,000 Hungarian Jews were transported to the camp and during this period up to 9,000 bodies per day, and sometimes as many as 10,000 per day, were cremated in the ovens, as well as in outdoor burning pits. Crematorium IV was out of use from May 1943, after only two months of service, because it developed cracks. From March 1943 until November 1944, nearly 1 million people were murdered and disposed of at the camp.On 26 October 1942, the engineer Fritz Sander, Prüfer's manager, applied for a patent for what he called a "continuous operation corpse incineration oven for mass use". This was a four-storey oven designed for Auschwitz II. The idea was that the bodies would be loaded by a type of conveyor belt and the heat of the bodies already in the oven would ignite them, thus, after an initial heating period, it would remaining in continuous operation without the need for any further fuel - the heat of burning corpses would keep the apparatus running. Prüfer and Sander, who disliked each other and competed with one another, disagreed about how well the device would work in practice. It was never built.
Other reports suggest that the Auschwitz ovens were the same as the Gusen ones. I suspect this idea that was not put into practice or built has been actualized as reality in the minds of some. These people are claiming each oven could cremate 174 bodies in a 24 hour period which is 7 bodies an hour for each oven or an average of one body every 8.3 minutes: this is blatantly absurd. To burn 8000 bodies at 34kg coke per body is 272 tonne of coke to reduce the time down to eight minutes means a ten time increase in energy so this means 2720 tonnes of coke is used. Absurd.
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Nessie
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Re: Ovens

Post by Nessie » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:06 am

Werd wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:47 pm
Nessie wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:31 am
The letter shows that the plan was to cremate 4 bodies at a time.
Where's the physical proof it was possible to cremate 4 bodies in 30 minutes in one muffle? Any cremation experiments backing that up?
Multiple body cremations is confirmed by the lack of evidence of mass departures from the camp.
So the answer is still no.
Correct and at I have the honesty to admit that. Unlike you and my question;

Where's the physical proof it was NOT possible to cremate 4 bodies in 30 minutes in one muffle? Any cremation experiments backing that up?
Nessie has no recourse to a scientific cremation experiment bearing out what Tauber claims. That's why Nessie doesn't want to judge ovens by looking at ovens. He hates comparing apples with apples. The sign of a disruptive troll. Nessie in a nutshell:
"This television model made by this company in this year has a lower contrast level than other models."
How do you know?
"Well I have found models made by this company a few years prior and they ALL have the same low level of contrast."
Anything else?
"Actually yes, I found someone conducted an experiment with this exact model that is on the market now and is only a few years old. They turned it on, checked the levels and compared it with other televisions that are just a little older and boom, they all have the same low levels of contrast."
Yeah well what about what this guy said about it? He never built any of these things himself and he's not an expert by any means but he claims that they have a higher level of contrast than previously assumed. He swears he saw it.
"What experimental data did he provide?"
Look I admit there is no data yet backing up his claim, but he doesn't have to give any data. He saw it. He says so. That's good enough. You just have to prove that it doesn't.
"But I already have the data supporting my side. It's on these pages. Besides, that's the fallacy of argument from ignorance."
No, you're committing the fallacy of if not A then B.

That's what Nessie does. When caught in a fallacy because the scientific/experimental evidence does not back his side, he desperately has to accuse others of a fallacy to try and stay in the debate.
It is you and Mattogno who commit a fallacy. Other oven experiments to do with the speed of cremation of one body, are being used to reach conclusions about the number of bodies which can be cremated at the same time.

If the oven is physically big enough to add a one body to another body, then two can be cremated at the same time.
Next.
Until Mattogno produces an actual experiment showing cremating four bodies is impossible,
He cited many examples. And they showed that one body in one muffle takes longer than 30 minutes. Nevermind 4! :lol:
Lie, he cited no examples of actual experiments where more than one corpse was put into an oven.
The evidence that bodies also fuel the process comes from one of the engineers for the Birkenau kremas.
The amount of coke and heat energy it takes to break open one body and begin to expose the grease and fat for it to run out, CAN NOT ALSO BE THE SAME AMOUNT THAT CAN BREAK OPEN TWO CORPSES TO RELEASE THE FAT.
Nessie ignores facts.
viewtopic.php?p=121693#p121693
The sign of a disruptive troll.
That is a hypothetical claim based in no evidence, versus a witness who was there and who is backed up by other evidence.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: Ovens

Post by Nessie » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:11 am

NSDAP wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:06 am
......
Other reports suggest that the Auschwitz ovens were the same as the Gusen ones. I suspect this idea that was not put into practice or built has been actualized as reality in the minds of some. These people are claiming each oven could cremate 174 bodies in a 24 hour period which is 7 bodies an hour for each oven or an average of one body every 8.3 minutes: this is blatantly absurd. To burn 8000 bodies at 34kg coke per body is 272 tonne of coke to reduce the time down to eight minutes means a ten time increase in energy so this means 2720 tonnes of coke is used. Absurd.
So, all you have is reports which you do not believe. Can you show where the coke calculation takes into account the heat generated by other bodies and that bodies were only being cremated enough for unceremonious disposal? The aim being to prevent identification, establishing cause of death and a body count.

I have multiple witnesses, accused and victim agreeing there was mass cremations, backed by there being four kremas in one camp, plus outdoor cremations, plus the disappearance of hundreds of thousands of people.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
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Re: Ovens

Post by Werd » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:15 pm

Nessie wrote:
Werd wrote:Where's the physical proof it was possible to cremate 4 bodies in 30 minutes in one muffle? Any cremation experiments backing that up?
[...]
So the answer is still no.
Correct and at I have the honesty to admit that.
So induction would indicate that multiple bodies in one muffle being destroyed in the same time as one is not physically possible since many experiments kept coming back with the same results. Watch how Nessie shits on facts, science and physics when he implies the reverse is possible even though it has repeatedly been shown to not be...
Where's the physical proof it was NOT possible to cremate 4 bodies in 30 minutes in one muffle? Any cremation experiments backing that up?
Yep. The multiple experiments with one corpse that took longer than 30 minutes. When it happens again and again in Germany and Italy in the 30's, the answer about what is possible is obvious.
he cited no examples of actual experiments where more than one corpse was put into an oven.
He doesn't have to since his experiments cited show that cremations took longer than 30 minutes for one body. Jackass. :lol:
If the oven is physically big enough to add a one body to another body, then two can be cremated at the same time.
Doesn't mean that's how the Germans did it. Possible doesn't equal absolute certainty. Two bodies COULD be done simultaneously, yes. But not in the same amount of time it takes to cremate one body. That's the point. You increase the load without thinking that requires more coke and therefore more time. The amount of coke and heat energy it takes to break open one body and begin to expose the grease and fat for it to run out, CAN NOT ALSO BE THE SAME AMOUNT THAT CAN BREAK OPEN TWO CORPSES TO RELEASE THE FAT.
Nessie ignores facts.
viewtopic.php?p=121693#p121693
The sign of a disruptive troll.

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Nessie
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Re: Ovens

Post by Nessie » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:05 pm

Werd wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:15 pm
Nessie wrote:
Werd wrote:Where's the physical proof it was possible to cremate 4 bodies in 30 minutes in one muffle? Any cremation experiments backing that up?
[...]
So the answer is still no.
Correct and at I have the honesty to admit that.
So induction would indicate that multiple bodies in one muffle being destroyed in the same time as one is not physically possible since many experiments kept coming back with the same results. Watch how Nessie shits on facts, science and physics when he implies the reverse is possible even though it has repeatedly been shown to not be...
Stop shitting on science and claiming because of a certain length of time to cremate one body, therefore it is impossible to cremate more than one body at a time. So long there is space in the oven for more than one body, it will be possible.
Where's the physical proof it was NOT possible to cremate 4 bodies in 30 minutes in one muffle? Any cremation experiments backing that up?
Yep. The multiple experiments with one corpse that took longer than 30 minutes. When it happens again and again in Germany and Italy in the 30's, the answer about what is possible is obvious.
That is to fully cremate a body to ashes to return to a relative. That takes longer than a cremation just to burn a body sufficiently to prevent identification and the cause of death being established.
he cited no examples of actual experiments where more than one corpse was put into an oven.
He doesn't have to since his experiments cited show that cremations took longer than 30 minutes for one body. Jackass. :lol:
If the oven is physically big enough to add a one body to another body, then two can be cremated at the same time.
Doesn't mean that's how the Germans did it. Possible doesn't equal absolute certainty. Two bodies COULD be done simultaneously, yes.
At last!
But not in the same amount of time it takes to cremate one body. That's the point. You increase the load without thinking that requires more coke and therefore more time. The amount of coke and heat energy it takes to break open one body and begin to expose the grease and fat for it to run out, CAN NOT ALSO BE THE SAME AMOUNT THAT CAN BREAK OPEN TWO CORPSES TO RELEASE THE FAT.
Nessie ignores facts.
viewtopic.php?p=121693#p121693
The sign of a disruptive troll.
The timing is not taking into consideration the difference between cremating a body to ashes to return to a relative in an urn and cremating so as to unceremoniously bury or dump in a river.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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NSDAP
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Re: Ovens

Post by NSDAP » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:28 pm

Nessie wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:05 pm
The timing is not taking into consideration the difference between cremating a body to ashes to return to a relative in an urn and cremating so as to unceremoniously bury or dump in a river.
What Werd is saying Nessie is that human beings are about 65% water. This will vary depending on fat content. The average mass of people is 70kg but in those days I'll put it down to 65kg. This means that each person has 42.45kg of water that must be boiled away before any burning of fat would start assuming an incinerator was used and not a regular Krema. The amount of energy to boil away 42.45 kg of water is 96 MJ, having two bodies would be
196 MJ, 3 bodies 288MJ, 4 bodies 384MJ. As mentioned the energy in the combustion of 1kg of coke is 29.3 MJ, so just to boil away the water from one body would take 3.3 kg of coke, 4 bodies 13.1kg of coke. Burning of tissue and fat can only occur once the tissue is dry.
THE CREMATOR’S RULE OF THUMB: 100 LBS. OF HUMAN FAT IS THE EQUIVALENT OF 17 GALLONS OF KEROSENE
45.36 kg of human fat is equivalent to 52.6kg of kerosine which equals 2251.28 MJ of energy. (1 kg fat gives 37MJ in reality) So if you have a body of 65kg . 20kg of it will be fat that will burn rapidly as the average amount of fat in people is 30% (females have significantly more and there are age differences ) 20 kg of fat can release 740 MJ of energy, this is the equivalent of 25.3 kg of coke being burned.
So if we have per body 3.3kg of coke for dehydration and the 25.3 fat coke equivalent, this is the same as 28.5kg of coke which is approximately what is used in retorts which are not designed for fat incineration. For this to happen there must be oxygen present in the retort (muffle).
1 kg of coke has 29307 kJ of energy so 990035kJ/29307= 33.78 kg of coke. This is a total cremation of about 2.5 hours and fits in with the Gusen data of an average amount of coke used being 28kg. I am not sure if the Auschwitz ovens were any different to the Gusen ones, though Blake insists they were designed to use body fat.
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Re: Ovens

Post by Nessie » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:33 pm

Werd has admitted more than one body can be cremated at a time. NSDAP has admitted bodies will help fuel other bodies. It is beyond me why there is still incredulity the Nazis cremated the missing Jews sent to Birkenau, but there is no incredulity they could leave the camp without leaving any evidence.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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NSDAP
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Re: Ovens

Post by NSDAP » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:44 pm

Nessie wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:33 pm
Werd has admitted more than one body can be cremated at a time. NSDAP has admitted bodies will help fuel other bodies. It is beyond me why there is still incredulity the Nazis cremated the missing Jews sent to Birkenau, but there is no incredulity they could leave the camp without leaving any evidence.
Nessie I did the calculations and read this report which supports the claims made by Blake. I found it interesting that my calculations on burning the fats corresponds exactly to the amount of coke that would be used in regular Krema like at Gusen. I'll re check later as there are a lot of conversions going on and for fun I use a slide rule. ;) and sometimes count on my fingers. I'll check with calculator later. You can read this very interesting url here. Without the right incinerator design the fat will not burn due to lack of oxygen and from is understood inside the retort (muffle) has very little oxygen as it is not part of the combustion process.
I find Blake a very credible person to talk to and will patiently wait for his information regarding the ovens at Auschwitz which he claims are different to the Gusen ones. He has mentioned that the Auschwitz ovens were designed as fat burning incinerator from within the muffle. I hope these plans can be put in the reference sections for study. I mentioned in another post that there were plans for fat incinerators but this was never actualized.
The missing Juden you keep mentioning should not be on this ovens thread though as it is off topic. We should stick to the ovens here and similar technologies such as incinerators.
I see you already started this thread here
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Werd
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Re: Ovens

Post by Werd » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:01 pm

Observe Nessie's bait and switch.
Stop shitting on science and claiming because of a certain length of time to cremate one body, therefore it is impossible to cremate more than one body at a time.
That's not the argument. Nessie loves his fallacies. Go ahead and cremate two corpses in one muffle all you want. It's not going to take the same time as just one corpse. :lol:

You can NOT increase the load without thinking that getting rid of the bigger load requires more coke and therefore more time. The amount of coke and heat energy it takes to break open one body and begin to expose the grease and fat for it to run out, CAN NOT ALSO BE THE SAME AMOUNT THAT CAN BREAK OPEN TWO CORPSES TO RELEASE THE FAT.
Nessie ignores facts.
viewtopic.php?p=121693#p121693
The sign of a disruptive troll.
The timing is not taking into consideration the difference between cremating a body to ashes to return to a relative in an urn and cremating so as to unceremoniously bury or dump in a river.
What a non-reply. What a bait and switch. Nazis were not dumping bodies in rivers. According to Tauber and other lie-witnesses, 4 bodies were so successfully destroyed in one muffle in 30 minutes, that the remains would FALL THROUGH THE GRATE and allow the addition of another 4 bodies. :lol:

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