Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

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Turnagain
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
You need to explain why...
No, I don't need to explain jack squat. The evidence stands on its own. YOU LOSE! What part of that don't you understand? If you can't produce a source that definitely states that cherry red discoloration IS NOT symptomatic for high levels of COHb from CO poisoning then give it a rest.

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Nessie
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:26 am
Nessie wrote:
You need to explain why...
No, I don't need to explain jack squat. The evidence stands on its own. YOU LOSE! What part of that don't you understand?
The part where one source lists cherry red as a rare symptom, instead of a frequent symptom and another source does not list it as a symptom at all, but you claim it is common.

You claim fatal gassings are rare, which is debatable when c500 a year die in the UK and USA, so the symptoms are rarely seen. Then you switch to with fatal gassings cherry red is a common symptom. If it was so common, even if fatalities are rare, it would be a widely reported symptom and on every list of symptoms, especially since it is so distinctive.
If you can't produce a source that definitely states that cherry red discoloration IS NOT symptomatic for high levels of COHb from CO poisoning then give it a rest.
You are now reversing the burden of proof because you cannot find a medical study that clearly states cherry red skin is common and obvious in fatal gassings at the time of death. I have already shown you studies that do not mention it at all;

viewtopic.php?p=175182#p175182

All the studies of fatal gassings that do not mention it as a symptom at all count. Not only do they not mention cherry red skin in fatal gassings, they also do not mention people getting itchy rashes. That will because an itchy rash is not noted in fatal gassings. According to your logic, itchy rashes are common and obvious because they are not mentioned as a symptom :roll:
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Huntinger
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Huntinger »

an itchy rash is not noted in fatal gassings
I wonder if this is because the deceased have issues with mentioning the symptoms. ;)
"excuse me doctor, I'm dead but can you scratch that annoying rash please" :roll:


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Turnagain
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie declares ignorance and claims not to be able to understand what is written in plain English. Then we have his favorite, "When all else fails, go for":
You are now reversing the burden of proof...
I can't do anything about your lack of comprehension. Neither can I do anything for you not being able to find any sources to match your claims.

Death from accidental CO poisoning is rare. The cherry red discoloration from extremely high levels of COHb is even more rare. At Treblinka with a LC100 of CO, death was not rare at all. Death occurred 100% of the time with uniformly high levels of COHb. Thus the cherry red discoloration would be common and not rare at all. Nessie claims that he can't understand that. Neither can he come up with any sources that unequivocally state that cherry red skin discoloration from CO poisoning is a myth and doesn't actually occur. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.

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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:15 pm
Nessie declares ignorance and claims not to be able to understand what is written in plain English. Then we have his favorite, "When all else fails, go for":
You are now reversing the burden of proof...
I can't do anything about your lack of comprehension. Neither can I do anything for you not being able to find any sources to match your claims.

Death from accidental CO poisoning is rare. The cherry red discoloration from extremely high levels of COHb is even more rare. At Treblinka with a LC100 of CO, death was not rare at all. Death occurred 100% of the time with uniformly high levels of COHb. Thus the cherry red discoloration would be common and not rare at all. Nessie claims that he can't understand that.
I understand what you are trying to argue, but it is a logical fail. A common symptom in a rare illness is still a common symptom for that illness. A rare illness can also have a rare symptom. If 500 people die a year from CO and say 5 show some signs of cherry red skin, if that then becomes 500,000 then 5000 would show signs of cherry red skin. In both cases it is a rare sign. Fatal gassings are rare. The cherry red skin at time of death is also rare.

You then contradict yourself. You admit cherry red is "even more rare", then you claim it would be "common and not rare at all". It cannot be both.

The evidence is that it is rare, or else, why do NO medical lists of symptoms mention cherry red skin for >60%?
Neither can he come up with any sources that unequivocally state that cherry red skin discoloration from CO poisoning is a myth and doesn't actually occur. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
No one is claiming it is a myth. It does occasionally happen, which the sources you quote reference, but mysteriously you interpret that as being it is common.

I am sorry, but only a complete idiot who has no understanding, would claim that when there are lists of "Frequent" and "Rare" symptoms, a symptom listed as rare is in fact frequent.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Turnagain
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
I am sorry, but only a complete idiot who has no understanding, would claim that when there are lists of "Frequent" and "Rare" symptoms, a symptom listed as rare is in fact frequent.
Nessie gives it his best shot but fails miserably. Symptoms of CO poisoning begin to appear at about 10-20% COHb. Death is what is rare. COHb levels >60% is the condition where cherry red discoloration can occur.
So, extreme flushed skin is too late a sign to be useful in determining if a patient is suffering from carbon monoxide poisoning.
Your deliberate obtuseness can't change the meaning of what has been written. Nessie then tries to conflate the incidence of high levels of COHb in accidental poisoning to the LC100 of CO claimed for Treblinka.
More quotes:
The level of carbon monoxide in the blood required to get the skin to that color is so high that it is nearly always fatal.
And:
Experts agree that the COHb level would need to be extremely high to expect to see a change in skin color.
The idiocy is all yours, Nessie. That's to be expected from holyhoax la-la land.

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Nessie
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:02 pm
Nessie wrote:
I am sorry, but only a complete idiot who has no understanding, would claim that when there are lists of "Frequent" and "Rare" symptoms, a symptom listed as rare is in fact frequent.
Nessie gives it his best shot but fails miserably. Symptoms of CO poisoning begin to appear at about 10-20% COHb. Death is what is rare. COHb levels >60% is the condition where cherry red discoloration can occur.
So, extreme flushed skin is too late a sign to be useful in determining if a patient is suffering from carbon monoxide poisoning.
Your deliberate obtuseness can't change the meaning of what has been written. Nessie then tries to conflate the incidence of high levels of COHb in accidental poisoning to the LC100 of CO claimed for Treblinka.
More quotes:
The level of carbon monoxide in the blood required to get the skin to that color is so high that it is nearly always fatal.
And:
Experts agree that the COHb level would need to be extremely high to expect to see a change in skin color.
The idiocy is all yours, Nessie. That's to be expected from holyhoax la-la land.
Stop weasel dodging explaining why NO list of symptoms for >60% COHb lists cherry red as a symptom. Instead, the listed symptoms are; loss of coordination, blurred vision, nausea, breathlessness, cardiac arrest, seizures and unconsciousness.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Turnagain
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
Stop weasel dodging explaining why NO list of symptoms for >60% COHb lists cherry red as a symptom. Instead, the listed symptoms are; loss of coordination, blurred vision, nausea, breathlessness, cardiac arrest, seizures and unconsciousness.
None of your carefully cherry picked sources address the appearance of the victims.

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Nessie
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:13 pm
Nessie wrote:
Stop weasel dodging explaining why NO list of symptoms for >60% COHb lists cherry red as a symptom. Instead, the listed symptoms are; loss of coordination, blurred vision, nausea, breathlessness, cardiac arrest, seizures and unconsciousness.
None of your carefully cherry picked sources address the appearance of the victims.
The sources you provide do address the appearance of the victims, and they say cherry red is rare. You have applied an illogical and rather stupid interpretation of those sources to say they actually mean it is common. You then weasel dodge my simple question of why do they not say it is common? Just because a cause of death is rare, does not mean the symptoms are also therefore rare. A rare cause of death can have commonly and rarely seen symptoms.

Add that to the medical sources and lists of symptoms that do not even mention cherry red as a symptom and we see just how rare it is. I have not cherry picked those sources, they ALL do not list cherry red as a symptom at all.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Turnagain
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Turnagain »

Death from accidental CO poisoning is rare therefore levels of COHb >60% are rare. Cherry red skin discoloration is a function of COHb. By definition, cases of cherry red discoloration is rare in accidental CO poisoning.

At Treblinka 100% of the victims of CO poisoning died. Since death was NOT rare, levels of COHb >60% were not rare. Therefore cherry red discoloration was not rare.

Nessie tries to conflate the rarity of death from accidental CO poisoning (the apples) with the LC100 of CO (the oranges) of Treblinka. Nessie applies the logic of holyhoax la-la land.

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