Where did they go

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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:13 pm
Nessie wrote:
The description of what happened is missing details and is compromised with hyperbole, hearsay and estimations. You cannot conclusively determine if something was possible merely from how witnesses described how it happened.
Yep, if it happened it was possible. No matter what the witnesses said.
Yes. There is nothing wrong with that, since witnesses are not that great at describing what they previously saw.
If it happened, it was possible.
Nessie replied:
That is logical and you have never been able to explain what is wrong with that statement.
Yep, if the little boy rode his tricycle to the moon, that's what happened.
False analogy. There is evidence of gassings, there is no evidence a boy rode to the moon.
Which is normal for witnesses.
So no witness told the truth but that doesn't matter.
They told the truth and used hyperbole, made mistakes, exaggerated, used hearsay etc, which is normal for witnesses.
The evidence is that c2 to 2.5 million were gassed. Another c2 million were shot.
Careful Nessie, you're approaching denier territory.
No, that is generally agreed academic numbers.
It is not physically impossible for the Nazis to have gassed, buried, exhumed and cremated. We know they managed to do it from the evidence.
Only if you disregard everything claimed by the alleged eyewitnesses. That and you have no evidence.
Multiple witnesses corroborate physical and documentary evidence to prove mass arrivals and what was left was a large area of cremated remains.
You keep on dodging that it is physically impossible for the Nazis to have transported and accommodated millions of people you claim were not gassed.
So you say.
How did they do it then? Go into detail. Just saying they went to lots of camps is not enough, you need to evidence it happened. What about the low numbers found when the camps were liberated?
You tried to suggest they were spread out amongst hundreds of camps, but there are very few camps that are evidenced to have taken transports from the AR camps.
From only a handful of witnesses we know that deportees ended up in dozens of different camps. The Germans had tens of thousands of camps/worksites available for prisoners. Keep the faith, Nessie.
Exactly, from only a handful of witnesses we know limited work selections took place at TII, Sobibor, Belzec and Birkenau. The rest disappeared inside the camps. There is no evidence they also went to the other camps. Instead the evidence is they were gassed.

You are the one who relies on faith, demanding we ignore what is evidenced and believe what is not evidenced.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Huntinger
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:43 am
You are the one who relies on faith, demanding we ignore what is evidenced and believe what is not evidenced.
Could the poster tell the forum when he might add something substantial instead of speaking about evidencing philosophy.
I suggest that is because there is a void of knowledge.


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
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Turnagain
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

Huntinger wrote:
Could the poster tell the forum when he might add something substantial instead of speaking about evidencing philosophy.
Nessie has no intention of adding anything to the debate. That his witnesses are liars and his claims are either unsubstantiated or impossibilities is irrelevant. If it happened, it was possible. Did the corpses cremate themselves? Damn straight they did. Did the little boy ride his tricycle to the moon? Damn straight he did. Well, maybe a witness "exaggerated" but there was a little boy and he did have a tricycle so close enough. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.

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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

You deniers have been dodging the thread topic since it started. You cannot evidence, let alone prove, mass departures from Sobibor, Chelmno, Belzec, TII and of those sent to the A-B kremas. That means according to denial, c2.5 million people were not gassed, but you cannot show where they went after they left the AR camps and A-B, let alone where they were liberated from.

The claim that witnesses to gassings are liars, means a conspiracy where Nazis, Jews and some civilian workers agreed to all lie about what they saw. There is no incentive for the Nazis to lie. Alleging some sort of coordinated hoax is in the realms of flat earth and other nutter conspiracy theories.

In any case, the witnesses are corroborated by findings at the AR camps of large areas of cremated remains (which deniers play down, claiming hardly any remains, without producing any evidence to back that up) and documents proving mass arrivals at the camps.

Denial relies on logical fallacies, with a series of arguments from incredulity and ignorance used to dismiss witnesses, then a demand to believe in something that is not evidenced to have happened. It is impossible for the Nazis to have transported and accommodated so many people without leaving any evidence.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Huntinger
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:02 pm
In any case, the witnesses are corroborated by findings at the AR camps of large areas of cremated remains (which deniers play down, claiming hardly any remains, without producing any evidence to back that up) and documents proving mass arrivals at the camps.
The corroborations are negligible if existent. Any cremated remains can be explained by the arrival of dead people as reported; however, there is no where near the volume. The cremains found above the ground are inconsistent with the alleged reports of burial but open air cremations of a few deceased. People do die.

There is negligible evidence that people arrived at these camps but that they were processed and moved through prior to Barbarossa; they were sent to the Soviet Zone for a large part; it is probable that Hitler did not intend to attack the Soviet Union at this early stage.

The credibility of the witnesses is void due to the impossibilities. One of the main lies, which should be in the section on witnesses is the constant lie that people were beaten by the SS at the camps. While the people may have been rounded up by SS Polizei using physical force to effect arrest, the SS camp guards were not allowed to touch Häfling under any circumstances. Chris Browning in his book "remembering survival" mentions this; an SS man who was grumpy and shouted a lot at Häftling never touched anyone; however at a trial der Juden testifying mentioned that he bet them with sticks viciously over extended periods. There are many reports of rape, but this is also absurd; any soldaten who was accused of that would be executed if found guilty.


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:57 pm
Nessie wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:02 pm
In any case, the witnesses are corroborated by findings at the AR camps of large areas of cremated remains (which deniers play down, claiming hardly any remains, without producing any evidence to back that up) and documents proving mass arrivals at the camps.
The corroborations are negligible if existent. Any cremated remains can be explained by the arrival of dead people as reported; however, there is no where near the volume. The cremains found above the ground are inconsistent with the alleged reports of burial but open air cremations of a few deceased. People do die.

There is negligible evidence that people arrived at these camps but that they were processed and moved through prior to Barbarossa; they were sent to the Soviet Zone for a large part; it is probable that Hitler did not intend to attack the Soviet Union at this early stage.

The credibility of the witnesses is void due to the impossibilities. One of the main lies, which should be in the section on witnesses is the constant lie that people were beaten by the SS at the camps. While the people may have been rounded up by SS Polizei using physical force to effect arrest, the SS camp guards were not allowed to touch Häfling under any circumstances. Chris Browning in his book "remembering survival" mentions this; an SS man who was grumpy and shouted a lot at Häftling never touched anyone; however at a trial der Juden testifying mentioned that he bet them with sticks viciously over extended periods. There are many reports of rape, but this is also absurd; any soldaten who was accused of that would be executed if found guilty.
Stop trolling your own thread with clearly off topic posts.

The only witness to departures from camps said that they left with few others, for example, the Dutch Jews arriving at Sobibor;

https://www.sobiborinterviews.nl/en/ned ... cato-polak

"Cato and a group of other unmarried girls were selected to work in another camp. Married women were told by the SS to stay with the children. As the selected girls got back onto the train, the Dutch Jews who stayed behind in the camp were killed in Lager III."

https://www.sobiborinterviews.nl/en/ned ... elie-cohen

"The men were immediately separated from the women and children. The camp SS called out they needed workers and Cohen volunteered as a metal worker. He and the other selected men were herded back onto the train and transported to the Lublin-Majdanek camp."

Westerbork camp records show 19 transports to Sobibor of 34,313 with 18 known to have been liberated at the end of the war. The transports to Sobibor arrived between March and July 1943. Show me your evidence that those c34,000 went on to other camps.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Huntinger
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:41 pm
Westerbork camp records show 19 transports to Sobibor of 34,313 with 18 known to have been liberated at the end of the war. The transports to Sobibor arrived between March and July 1943. Show me your evidence that those c34,000 went on to other camps.
Rail records only show departures to Stations as a final destination not to camps. There is enough evidence from the Dutch witnesses that they went to many camps, some prior to Sobibor; some to 15 others in their journey. This is not sufficient to conclude they arrived at a camp called Sobibor. There are multiple camps in the Sobibor area.
Lager III is most likely a customs designated area where after processing they were sent on their way.


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:47 pm
Nessie wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:41 pm
Westerbork camp records show 19 transports to Sobibor of 34,313 with 18 known to have been liberated at the end of the war. The transports to Sobibor arrived between March and July 1943. Show me your evidence that those c34,000 went on to other camps.
Rail records only show departures to Stations as a final destination not to camps. There is enough evidence from the Dutch witnesses that they went to many camps, some prior to Sobibor; some to 15 others in their journey. This is not sufficient to conclude they arrived at a camp called Sobibor. There are multiple camps in the Sobibor area.
Lager III is most likely a customs designated area where after processing they were sent on their way.
Dutch records show transports to the camp at Sobibor. The witnesses describe arriving at the camp Sobibor. Dutch property, such as children's name tags has been found during archaeological excavations at Sobibor. There is ample evidence to prove c33,000 Dutch Jews arrived at Sobibor. Rather than evidence they left the camp, since you know you cannot do that, you make unevidenced speculative claims to suggest they never arrived.

If you think Sobibor was a customs post and those people left, show me your evidence that they left.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Huntinger
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:36 pm
Dutch records show transports to the camp at Sobibor. The witnesses describe arriving at the camp Sobibor. Dutch property, such as children's name tags has been found during archaeological excavations at Sobibor. There is ample evidence to prove c33,000 Dutch Jews arrived at Sobibor. Rather than evidence they left the camp, since you know you cannot do that, you make unevidenced speculative claims to suggest they never arrived.

If you think Sobibor was a customs post and those people left, show me your evidence that they left.
Transports arrive at railway stations not camps; it would be expect thousands of people would be evicted in a customs border outpost. It was made clear by many of these Dutch Js that they went to multiple camps, one to Sobibor and to Auschwitz on multiple occasions. It seems these people went all over the place, Sobibor just being one destination and could have ended up in any of the camps in the area. Some of course ended up in Minsk.

If there is a suggestion of mass murder then please provide some credible evidence.


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Loog »

Huntinger, fyi your thesis is easily refuted by Germans like Frank and Backe saying there were millions of Jews in the General Government in late 41/42. Unless you're saying you would know better than the Reich Minister of Food.

In June 1942 -
Backe: “in the GG there are still 3.5 million Jews. Poland should already be sanitised this year.”

Chef Wi Z, Aktenvermerk über die Besprechung bei Staatssekretär Backe am 23.6.42 mit den
landwirtschaftlichen Sachbearbeitern der besetzten Gebiete, 24.6.42, NARA T77/419/1689242, also NI-6194.

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