The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Discuss the alleged Nazi genocide or other wartime atrocities without fear of censorship. No bullying of fellow posters is allowed at RODOH. If you can't be civil, please address the argument and not the participants. Do not use disparaging alterations of the user-names of other RODOH posters or their family members. Failure to heed warnings from Moderators will result in a 24 hour ban (or longer if necessary).
User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 30149
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Nessie »

been-there wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:34 am
....

Which confirms the title of this topic thread: which is that the 'Achilles heel' of 'THE Holocaust’ is the WITNESSES!!!

....
Denial's Achilles Heel is its attacks on the witness evidence. No academic or investigatory discipline behaves like denial. No historian or detective determines what happened by ridiculing the witness claims as to what happened and then declaring something else happened instead, for which there is no evidence. You think that by trying to discredit some witnesses, all of the witnesses can be dismissed. That is wrong. You think that by supposedly disproving gassings, you have therefore proved something else happened, despite there being no witnesses at all to any alternative. Wrong again.

The Nazi testimony is consistently matter of fact, as if the mass killings were acceptable and just their job. The Nazis at the Belzec trial even managed to argue they were following orders and acting under duress and were acquitted. The Jewish testimony is more emotive, has a greater use of hyperbole and exaggeration. They often mix hearsay with what they saw themselves. That is to be expected when both victim and perpetrator give evidence.

Denial has made numerous mistakes in its attempts to discredit witnesses, from not noticing that those who saw the engine used for gassings said it was petrol, not diesel to not noticing that no witness claimed the M&B dragline was the excavator used to dig the mass graves. Deniers repeatedly show a lack of understanding of the difference between hearsay and eye witness evidence. No denier has any experience of interviewing witnesses and gathering evidence and that shows.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

SUPPORT RODOH!
Would you like to financially contribute to the upkeep of RODOH? Please kindly contact Scott Smith ([email protected]). Any and all contributions are welcome!


User avatar
Huntinger
Posts: 8431
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:56 am
Location: Gasthaus Waldesruh.Österreichisches Deutsch
Contact:

Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:13 pm
No denier has any experience of interviewing witnesses and gathering evidence and that shows.
Where is the evidence for this little piece of profound gossip :?: :roll: ;)


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
Amt IV

User avatar
Huntinger
Posts: 8431
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:56 am
Location: Gasthaus Waldesruh.Österreichisches Deutsch
Contact:

Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Huntinger »

The chart below shows the credibility of (((🤡)))
Image


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
Amt IV

User avatar
been-there
Propositions Moderator
Posts: 9742
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:59 am
Contact:

Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by been-there »

Huntinger wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:58 pm
The chart below shows the credibility of (((🤡)))
Image
Brilliant graphic!

Excellent summarisation.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

Turnagain
Posts: 9027
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:44 pm
Contact:

Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
What showers? No one mentioned a mass sanitation/shower facility at TII. You get upset because no model or map has a wall next to the tube, but you happily declare mass showers without any evidence of that.
Nessie goes for a non sequitur. The wall mentioned by Stangl didn't exist therefore shower/sanitation facilities didn't exist. Care to tighten up that connection a little, Nessie? Well, I suppose not. BTW, it was Allen Seder who said that he had gotten "sanitized" and showered at Treblinka. One of the witnesses from the USC film archives.
Stangl said that about an inspection visit to TII, when Eberl was in charge and it was in chaos. The first gas chambers kept breaking down and people were being shot. There were also reports of many people being found dead on arrival in the trains and their bodies starting to decompose before they were buried.
Uh-huh, nobody presented the characteristic red/pink discoloration of CO poisoning. Things were too chaotic for that to happen. Another non sequitur from Nessie.
The earliest reports of gassings were largely ignored or treated with incredulity. It is hardly surprising that there was hyperbole and exaggeration about the atrocities which took place.
I am gobsmacked. It is "hardly surprising" that the alleged eyewitnesses would tell the most incredible lies imaginable. Yep, perfectly understandable. Only in holyhoax la-la land.

User avatar
been-there
Propositions Moderator
Posts: 9742
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:59 am
Contact:

Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by been-there »

been-there wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:34 am
I recently read the wiki page on Franz Stangl.
It has numerous, self-incriminating quotes allegedly said by Stangl and when I looked what the source for them were, they all seemed to be coming from Yitzhak Arad and his book ‘Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka: The Operation Reinhard Death Camps’.
So I revisited his book.

Image

It seemed to me to be a deliberately hate-generating book. In other words it is HATE-SPEECH!
You know? Hate speech: the subjective, vague, easily-politicised and imprecise crime of our times that is being increasingly legislated against.
In this book we have what I regard as very clear examples of it.
Mr. Arad provides quote after quote, page after page, of ‘survivor’ jews narrating often ludicrously-unbelievable accounts of extraordinary sadistic cruelty being performed by SS men on Jewish prisoners. Reading that again I understand why anyone reading it and believing it to be honest, factual and credible testimony would feel outrage and hatred. That is the response that the book appears to be designed to provoke.
It seems designed to make its readers want to support Jews, to feel sorry for Jews, to feel collective guilt for what happened to Jews during WW2, to support their settler land-theft in Palestine, to hate anyone who was a part of the Axis forces during WW2 AND to hate anyone today who criticises Jewish actions, questions their hate-perpetuating WW2 narratives and to hate anyone who attempts to put into a more accurate context those WW2 events.

If anyone has been exposed to the currently approved and disseminated WW2 history without questioning any of its basic tenets regarding the alleged Jewish experience during it, then this collection of dubious quotes Arad has assembled will achieve their aim: they will create an abhorrence and hatred for the alleged perpetrators.

But if you apply even the mildest form of critical analysis, the manipulation becomes apparent.

Which confirms the title of this topic thread: which is that the 'Achilles heel' of 'THE Holocaust’ is the WITNESSES!!!

Whether it is Jewish survivors inventing ridiculous tales of racist savagery to demonise their captors,
or whether it is the coerced or invented ‘confessions’ of the vanquished objects of their hate,
it doesn’t make sense.
Their stories don’t add up.
The witness statements do not withstand close scrutiny.

For example Mr. Arad has Franz Stangl making this statement:
To tell the truth, one did become used to it... [to what? ‘Used’ to what exactly?] they were cargo. I think it started the day I first saw the Totenlager [extermination area] in Treblinka. I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of black-blue corpses. It had nothing to do with humanity — it could not have. It was a mass — a mass of rotting flesh. Wirth said 'What shall we do with this garbage?' I think unconsciously that started me thinking of them as cargo... I rarely saw them as individuals. It was always a huge mass. I sometimes stood on the wall and saw them in the "tube" — they were naked, packed together, running, being driven with whips...
[Pages 184-86, ‘Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka: The Operation Reinhard Death Camps’ (1987), Bloomington: Indiana University Press.]
I see two errors there in that supposed eye-witness testimony, supposedly coming from the mouth of Franz Stangl.
Anyone else see them and care to identify them?
Turnagain wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:38 pm
b-t wrote:
I see two errors there in that supposed eye-witness testimony, supposedly coming from the mouth of Franz Stangl.
Anyone else see them and care to identify them?
1.) From Stangl, "I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of black-blue corpses."
Why would cadavers killed with CO be "black-blue" when the signature color of CO poisoning is pink/red?

2.) We then have Stangl's quote of, "I sometimes stood on the wall and saw them in the "tube".
Really? What wall was that? None of the models or maps show any walls overlooking the so-called "tube". There could have been a passageway to the shower/sanitation facilities which is where the Jews got their inspiration for the "tube to the gas/vacuum chambers", but no walls overlooking the infamous tube.

At any rate, the holyhoax tale goes overboard with the alleged brutality of the guards. The eeevul Germans and Ukrainians are forever beating the poor, sufferink Jews with whips, iron bars, gun butts, siccing the dogs on them, using little Jews for skeet targets; on and on with an endless litany of extreme mistreatment. In reality, photos of Jews disembarking from trains show some bored guards standing around with a slung K-98 rifle. No MP-40s, no vicious dogs biting off the Jew's goolies or any of the rest of the atrocity porn. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
Full marks, Turnagain. :)

1. Corpses of persons killed by gassing with petrol-engine exhaust would not be “black-blue”. They would be red-pink (or possibly black-red/pink if “rotting”).

Image

2. None of the supposed “eye-witnesses” ever described their being any “walls” anywhere in T2, only fences. So Stangl supposedly ‘confessed’ to standing on an imaginary “wall” which overlooked the ‘tube’.

Image
Image
Model of Treblinka as it appears at the Gisozi Genocide Memorial made by P. Laponder in 2003-2004 from studying ‘eye-witness’ testimony.

Image
Model of Treblinka made by “survivor” Jankiel Wiernik from his own ‘eyewitness’ memory of the camp.

Image
Close-up of ‘ lie-witness’ Jankiel Wiernik’s model of Treblinka showing the schlauch or tube.

Image
So-called “survivor” Jankiel Wiernik and his model being used as evidence in 1961 at the Eichmann show-trial.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 30149
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:04 am
Nessie wrote:
What showers? No one mentioned a mass sanitation/shower facility at TII. You get upset because no model or map has a wall next to the tube, but you happily declare mass showers without any evidence of that.
Nessie goes for a non sequitur. The wall mentioned by Stangl didn't exist therefore shower/sanitation facilities didn't exist. Care to tighten up that connection a little, Nessie? Well, I suppose not.
You have gone for the strawman argument again. You have misrepresented my actual argument so you can dodge having no evidence for mass showering at TII.

You criticise Stangl's claim due to a lack of evidence, then you demand we believe mass showering, without any evidence.
BTW, it was Allen Seder who said that he had gotten "sanitized" and showered at Treblinka. One of the witnesses from the USC film archives.
Link and quote, I do not believe you.
Stangl said that about an inspection visit to TII, when Eberl was in charge and it was in chaos. The first gas chambers kept breaking down and people were being shot. There were also reports of many people being found dead on arrival in the trains and their bodies starting to decompose before they were buried.
Uh-huh, nobody presented the characteristic red/pink discoloration of CO poisoning. Things were too chaotic for that to happen. Another non sequitur from Nessie.
Berg's misunderstanding of the medical evidence has been explained in detail.
The earliest reports of gassings were largely ignored or treated with incredulity. It is hardly surprising that there was hyperbole and exaggeration about the atrocities which took place.
I am gobsmacked. It is "hardly surprising" that the alleged eyewitnesses would tell the most incredible lies imaginable. Yep, perfectly understandable. Only in holyhoax la-la land.
The Jewish Sonderkommados were corroborated by the German and Ukrainian Nazis. They all say that chambers were used to kill people. The accuracy of their testimony depends on whether the witness is repeating hearsay or rumour, or actually saw how the chambers worked. The witnesses are then corroborated by the physical evidence.

That is how we know the witnesses are telling the truth, the AR camps and A-B kremas had gas chambers.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 30149
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Nessie »

been-there wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:47 am
.....
Full marks, Turnagain. :)

1. Corpses of persons killed by gassing with petrol-engine exhaust would not be “black-blue”. They would be red-pink (or possibly black-red/pink if “rotting”).

2. None of the supposed “eye-witnesses” ever described their being any “walls” anywhere in T2, only fences. So Stangl supposedly ‘confessed’ to standing on an imaginary “wall” which overlooked the ‘tube’.

....
You need to check chronology. Chronology is something that deniers regularly get wrong. Events occur over time in an order. How do you not understand that? :roll:

Stangl comments on blue-black corpses when he first arrived at TII in August 1942. He said;

"The road ran alongside the railway. When we were about fifteen, twenty minutes' drive from Treblinka, we began to see corpses by the line, first just two or three, then more, and as we drove into Treblinka station, there were what looked like hundreds of them – just lying there – they'd obviously been there for days, in the heat. In the station was a train full of Jews, some dead, some still alive ... that too, looked as if it had been there for days."

"I think it started the day I first saw the Totenlager [extermination area] in Treblinka. I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of black-blue corpses. "

That was under the chaos of Eberl's command, when the old chambers were mostly not working and prisoners were shot and those who had died on the trains had not been properly buried. Obviously, as you acknowledge, decomposition had set in and black blue would have appeared.

Stangl is one of the very few witnesses to have seen the camp as it was under Eberl, with its original lay out and the old gas chambers. There may well have been a wall back then. It was Stangl who ordered the construction of new gas chambers in September 1942. It would also be pertinent to check the original translation to see if it is correct and he did use the word wall.

You never discuss that none of the witnesses claim any AR camp was a transit camp. You are dodging the Achilles Heel of denial, you have no witness or any other evidence to back up your claim no one was gassed and the Nazis kept millions of Jewish prisoners till the end of the war.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Turnagain
Posts: 9027
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:44 pm
Contact:

Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
You have gone for the strawman argument again. You have misrepresented my actual argument so you can dodge having no evidence for mass showering at TII.
Your actual argument is Stangl didn't stand on a wall therefore showers didn't exist. Strawman my shiny hiny. You have gone for a weasel dodge again.

Nessie then claims that there wasn't any witnesses to showers at T-II.
Link and quote, I do not believe you.
Go to the 13:12 mark of Hunt's film, "The Jewish Gas Chamber Hoax". That's at www.bitchute.com/video/33kLBxXQRwfx/
Berg's misunderstanding of the medical evidence has been explained in detail.
The signature symptom of lethal CO poisoning is pink/red skin discoloration. Your weasel dodges and lies don't fly, Nessie.
The so-called eyewitness sonderkommandos lied and the Germans were coerced to corroborate the lies. No big secret there. There's no physical evidence of gas chambers at T-II and the gas chamber at A-B was for disinfesting clothing and bedding.

Hide and watch, Nessie won't mention Allen Seder or his description of how he got "sanitized" by the Germans at T-II. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 30149
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:32 am
Nessie wrote:
You have gone for the strawman argument again. You have misrepresented my actual argument so you can dodge having no evidence for mass showering at TII.
Your actual argument is Stangl didn't stand on a wall therefore showers didn't exist. Strawman my shiny hiny. You have gone for a weasel dodge again.
That is not my argument. You made that up.

There is witness evidence to there being a wall next to the route the prisoners took to the gas chambers. There is no evidence from any source whatsoever of a building at TII where deportees were sent for mass showers.
Nessie then claims that there wasn't any witnesses to showers at T-II.
Link and quote, I do not believe you.
Go to the 13:12 mark of Hunt's film, "The Jewish Gas Chamber Hoax". That's at www.bitchute.com/video/33kLBxXQRwfx/
You are ignoring the subtitles that show Seder went to Majdanek. Prove he was not talking about his arrival there.
Berg's misunderstanding of the medical evidence has been explained in detail.
The signature symptom of lethal CO poisoning is pink/red skin discoloration. Your weasel dodges and lies don't fly, Nessie.
That colour appears with lividity, as the blood pools due to gravity after death, which means it appears hours after death. By then bodies had been buried or were on pyres. Berg misunderstood a report about coroners noting cherry red skin immediately on their arrival at the scenes of deaths. He did not realise that coroners usually do not arrive until hours after death and that is why they would notice the cherry red skin, as it had had time to form by then.
The so-called eyewitness sonderkommandos lied and the Germans were coerced to corroborate the lies. No big secret there.
Show your evidence of coercion and lying at the German trials.
There's no physical evidence of gas chambers at T-II ...
Not true, the remains of a building matching witness descriptions have been found at TII.
...and the gas chamber at A-B was for disinfesting clothing and bedding.
Show your evidence for that.
Hide and watch, Nessie won't mention Allen Seder or his description of how he got "sanitized" by the Germans at T-II. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
Seder also went to Majdanek and in the full testimonies, various witnesses speak of their relief of arriving at Majdanek and being showered, as they feared they would be gassed. Show me ALL of Seder's testimony, not just an edited clip lasting seconds.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 21 guests