Witch Trials

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Lupus Rothstein
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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Lupus Rothstein »

Huntinger wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:24 am
Scott wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:34 am
We do need to improve the tone of the forum, especially the Holocaust sektor.
Thanks for your cooperation.

:)
I agree. I cannot be bothered anymore with this poster you are referring to; basically nothing has been said that does not appear to be obfuscating, at least to me. I have disengaged with discussing anything with this individual or about this individual from this point forward.
Result ! :lol: :lol:


Would you like to financially contribute to the upkeep of RODOH, kindly contact Scott Smith. All contributions are welcome!


Turnagain
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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Turnagain »

Lupus wrote:
I've already told you why i 'doubt' their claim. They saw the hermetically sealed doors, and incorrectly (but understandably) assumed the whole chamber must be hermetically sealed too.
So, in your opinion the eyewitnesses didn't know if the the alleged gas chambers were hermetically sealed or not. Opinions are like a certain bodily orifice, everyone has one. What you "believe" doesn't disprove the witness testimony.
So, the hole in the roof was to ensure the chamber was not hermetically sealed, and when Wiernik referred to it as a 'hermetic cap' only he knows what he meant, but if there is a 'cap' then there must be a hole, so my two more qualified witnesses have proven the chambers were NOT fully hermetically sealed.
Again, Lupus presents his opinion. It's my opinion that when Wiernik said that the vent had a hermetic cap he meant that the vent was hermetically sealed.
The existence of gas chambers is a proven fact as both perpetrators and victims confirmed they did.
So, you have one group of witnesses who obviously lied and another group who gave coerced testimony. That doesn't prove or confirm anything. Neither does it explain the six witnesses who said that the gas chambers also functioned as vacuum chambers. How do you pump the air out of a vented chamber?
Then the existence of cremations/smells witnessed by multiple witnesses and the horrendously low survivor numbers ( a handful of survivors and only because they revolted and escaped) basically seals the deal.
The term "sonderbehandlung" has never been proven to be a euphemism for murder. As far as the "handful of survivors" there were at least 10,000 to 15,000 deportees who transited through Treblinka. Apparently you haven't seen the film clips of the survivor's testimony from the USC film archive. Two of the deportees stated that two full trainloads of deportees left Treblinka and there were numerous other statements of anywhere from 100 to 500 deportees being transported to the Lublin district. In addition, the USHMM has records of five deportees who transited through Treblinka along with an unknown number of other deportees so what the hell do you mean that only a handful escaped after a revolt?
Even if Rajman did not actually see the engines responsible for the gassing, I think if he applied a tiny amount of common sense, coupled with what he did actually see ( I believe he was a corpse carrier and observed the cremations) , and info he gained from others, then I would have thought he was more qualified to testify over the existence of gas chambers than any of your 11 witnesses would be to claim the chambers were 100% hermetically sealed. Yes ?
Rajzman was one of the eleven witnesses who testified that the gas chambers were hermetically sealed. That was at the IMt trial. I'm glad that you say that Rajzman was qualified to observe the gas chamber.

Bomba, who claimed to have cut women's hair inside the gas chamber before they were gassed, said that when fuel costs became too expensive that the Germans began pumping the air out of the chambers to suffocate the victims. Chil Rajchman, another eyewitness, stated that the gas chambers also functioned as vacuum chambers.
Firstly you haven't addressed my points and questions regarding the 'soap' and 'katyn' situation. No doubt you have realised they blow your botch-job argument out the water, resulting in your latest 'sound of silence' stance.

Secondly , The IMT are merely listening to the testimony of Rajman, so how do you interpret this as being the IMT 'taking judicial notice of the existence of gas chambers ' ??? You appear to be getting seriously confused over this issue. You should have just admitted that your original claim was a massive howler, or an invention of a muddled-up mind.


Here are the three relevant articles of the IMT:
Article 19.

The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. It shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and nontechnical procedure, and shall admit any evidence which it deems to be of probative value.
Article 20.

The Tribunal may require to be informed of the nature of any evidence before it is entered so that it may rule upon the relevance thereof.
Article 21.

The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge but shall take judicial notice thereof. It shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of the United Nations, including the acts and documents of the committees set up in the various allied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and of records and findings of military or other Tribunals of any of the United Nations.
The court took judicial notice of Rajzman's testimony in that his claim that there were gas chambers had "probative value". Your claims seem to be the product of a muddled mind.

I wrote:
Wiernik didn't state the purpose of the roof vent with the hermetic cap. He simply stated that there was a vent and it had a hermetic cap, it was hermetically sealed. Was the hermetic cap removed to aid in ventilation after a gassing? Wiernik doesn't say so that's unknown but that's the most likely explanation. Specifically, the purpose of a hermetic cap is to hermetically seal something. In this case, a roof vent.
Lupus wrote:
Already dealt with in my first response.
No, you didn't "deal with it" in your first response. You tried to weasel dodge the fact that Wiernik said that the vent had a hermetic cap. Neither did you deal with the six witnesses who stated that the gas chambers also functioned as vacuum chambers.
Differences in certain measurements or numbers of graves etc are actually evidence they were not given a script. And it is also natural human behaviour, something you probably wouldn't be too clued up on. Your problem is that the key elements of the inmates testimony is corroborated and confirmed by the Nazis and you have failed to produce a credible or believeable reason why .
Uh-huh, Wiernik said that there were five graves and Rajchman said that there were eleven. Wiernik said that the graves were 10X25X50 meters while Rajchman claimed that at least one of the graves was large enough to accommodate 250,000 cadavers. Rosenberg claimed that the graves were 120 meters long. Just some (heh-heh) "natural human behavior".

Kinda' like Arad, ARC, Sturdy-Colls et al. claiming that the M&H draglines from T-1 dug the graves. Just a little "mistake". Just like Wiernik claiming that the cadavers turned yellow from the CO, Rajchman claimed that they had black heads and blue torsos while Sergeant Schluch claimed that the victim's noses turned blue.

Wiernik also claimed that up to 500 people fit inside a 25 square meter room, a crowd density of 20 people per square meter. Of course, for Lupus, it's only important if the witnesses agree on gas chambers and graves. All of their clangers are just "natural human behavior".
So, Turnagain 'didn't recall correctly' - so according to your standards that makes you a liar doesn't it ? I was quoting from Kues in respect of the 4 square kilometres, so best take it up with him.
Well, according to your standards, that makes me a liar. Let's see that quote from Kues. I'm not convinced that he would make that much of an error.
Nothing about 'limbs from broken trees' that you originally claimed he wrote !
That's supposedly Kues writing about Glazar. Let's see a source for your quote and a link to it. In any case, that doesn't disqualify the wood detail going out from the camp to gather limbs for camouflaging the fences or for kindling for the magic Jew barbeque.
So is this where you got your original figures from ?

Why do I get the impression you are either 1) ignorant of the facts or past debates that produce more relevant sources/data regarding cremations OR 2) aware of them but just want the "horrible results" to go away ?
Yep, there's a whole slew of entries giving the details and showing photos of actual cremations. When you say, "more relevant sources/data, are you referring to the claims of the nutzoid, Roberto? Let's see some of those "facts" that I'm supposedly so ignorant of.
I'm not claiming 'large' quantities (like you have banded around) were used, and if any witnesses claim otherwise then i'm not aware of them, so I cannot post your requested 'quotes'.
Well, how much of this alleged wood was used to cremate the ~950,000 cadavers? Is the nutzoid your source for that claim? Or, like the so-called eyewitnesses, are you saying that the cadavers on the magic Jew barbeque managed to cremate themselves?
Wow, a whole 20 cms ???? Get outa town ! So what are you trying to say here ? Whatever it is it won't help you one bit. And who claimed the grate was in the bottom of a 6 meter trench ?
Those were two witnesses who claimed that the concrete pylons were set on level ground. Leleko claimed that there was a one meter pit under them. The Laponder scale model of Treblinka shows the grates set on level ground. Just another case of, "natural human behavior" I suppose. Can't recall the name of the witness who claimed that the cremations took place in a 6 meter pit. I'll have to pull up Mattogno's and Kues' book on Treblinka for that so I'll post the name later.
So, looks like i've produced witnesses to help expalin the floss method, which you kept asking me to explain, and i've described the wick effect...
No, you've produced one witness who tells a conflicting story about the magic Jew barbeque. Neither have you accurately described the wick effect. I've found "wick effect" to be only referenced as an explanation for spontaneous human combustion. If you have a different definition then post a link to it.
You can claim whatever you like, but unless you can back it then I suggest you keep your fantasies and unfounded speculation to yourself.
What is an "unfounded speculation" or a "fantasy" about the Germans being able to cremate or bury some bodies? Seems like reasonable things to do with a corpse.
No it wouldn't . Especially if most of the bodies were decomposed and falling apart. Again you do your usual and always go for the highest number, while ignoring some witnesses who mentioned 1,000 or 2,000 bodies. You did the same for the up to '950,000' death toll. Something else you dodged from my last post. Funny how deniers have to revert to these tactics isn't it ?
The claim for the number of victims at Treblinka varies up to a maximum of ~950,000. That's a fact. According to the Koherr report, a little over 700,000 were gassed and buried up to December 31, 1942. The order to commence cremating the corpses was allegedly given in early March, 1943. That leaves APPROXIMATELY 200,000 cadavers that were supposedly gassed and cremated without being buried. Since a trainload of deportees was claimed to be 60 cars and about 6,000 deportees, one trainload of deportees would require that both Jew barbeques be utilized for the freshly gassed victims. NONE of those cadavers would be decomposed and falling apart. There would be times when the freshly gassed cadavers would have had to have been stacked 30 bodies high. Revisionists use the numbers claimed by you hoaxers. Gee, what a "funny" tactic.
So according to you, if an ill-educated peasant, imprisoned in a death camp, traumatised and tortured, knowing his tormentors had wiped out all his family, could not precisely describe the workings of a gas chamber, without getting all the technical details correct, then he's a 'dumb-shit' ?

I think that in itself is enough to understand your vile and unintelligent nature. Again it reinforces my views about the 'calibre' of deniers.
Rajzman was an accountant so he wasn't an ill-educated peasant. Rosenberg wasn't an ill-educated peasant when he gave his testimony in 1961 which gave him 18 years to get over his trauma. He was, in fact, very specific about the gas chambers being hermetically sealed. Wiernik was an office worker, a building inspector, so couldn't have been too ill-educated. Care to name some of the "ill-educated" peasants?

I think that your belief in the fairy tales and fantasies told by these charlatans demonstrates your level of intelligence and the caliber of your fellow hoaxers.
Last edited by Turnagain on Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Turnagain
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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Turnagain »

Lupus wrote:
You obviously cannot grasp what i mean by 'qualified'.
Obviously the Israeli court couldn't grasp what you mean with "qualified". They accepted Rosenberg's testimony without question. Tell us, Lupus, why you're more qualified to test the validity of a witnesses' testimony than all of the judges and lawyers at trial in Israel?

Asher Cohen
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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Asher Cohen »

Turnagain , clever clogs ,I’m not going to respond to any of the spam you has been spamming this forum for years withs now and has been totally refuteds , but :

“The term "sonderbehandlung" has never been proven to be a euphemism for murder.”

Hahahahaha!!

What did it means then ? A get together for cups of coffee ? You are so uneducated on the third Reich it’s funnys to read your nonsense.

Please explains why the term was used during Aktion T4 ? Just in case you didn’t knows , that was when the Nazis killed the sick peoples .

“ A memo dated six days later from a meeting at the SS-Reichssicherheitshauptamt defines Sonderbehandlung with "execution" following it in brackets.[8]”

Ands , Himmler insisted abouts the Korherr Report ::

“Himmler accepted the full report on a confidential basis, but for the abridged estimate, made Korherr change the word "Sonderbehandlung" or "special treatment," to the word "durchgeschleust" or "processed."”

Sorrys to informs but the Nazis used it to means murder . No one cares if you don’t wants to accepts that fact .

Well folks , what’s cans we learn from Turnagain ? When you holds racist antisemitic views and denies the Holocaust you just denies everything’s you don’t wants to admits . So sad reallys .

Asher Cohen
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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Asher Cohen »

Oh , looks what I found ,

“ While deniers argue that there were other uses of Sonderbehandlung in the Nazi vocabulary (and a rare exception indeed appeared now and then), "special treatment" specifically in the official RSHA jargon and without modifiers meant exclusively extrajudicial executions. There isn't a single known RSHA document after 1939 that uses this term in regard to persons and without modifiers in an innocent way. And since Unternehmen Zeppelin was a part of the RSHA, they used the official RSHA terms. Indeed, the term first occurs in the series in a reference to an RSHA administrative order, which wouldn't have used any other meaning of Sonderbehandlung because it would have caused confusion.”

Turnagain responder in typicals Holocaust denier fashion . No wonder he tries to denies its meaning in most cases ..

Werd
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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Werd »

Asher Cohen wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:39 pm
Oh , looks what I found ,

“ While deniers argue that there were other uses of Sonderbehandlung in the Nazi vocabulary (and a rare exception indeed appeared now and then), "special treatment" specifically in the official RSHA jargon and without modifiers meant exclusively extrajudicial executions. There isn't a single known RSHA document after 1939 that uses this term in regard to persons and without modifiers in an innocent way.
Wrong.
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3382

We also found that "special tasks" can also refer to securing Jews for labour jobs.
Werd wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:31 am
Nessie and Danuta Czech both claimed that unregistered Jews were immediately gassed and yet Mattogno and Rudolf proved that many unregistered Jews, in fact THOUSANDS were shipped onward from Auschwitz.
There is no evidence those not selected to work even left the camp
Wrong.
Rudolf.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3656
Mattogno.
https://codoh.com/library/document/357/
Check this out from Mattogno near the end of part 1.
Although the non-registered Hungarian Jews in Auschwitz were quartered in the transfer camp under primitive conditions – because as we shall see later the camp administration was not prepared to receive such masses of people -, did the SS-people not only not “gass” the sick, but treated them medically, and if necessary even with surgical incisions. The earlier quoted report of June 28, 1944 includes the following information about the medical and sanitary care of these Hungarian Jews: [53]

»Medical Treatment:

During the reported time 3,138 inmates were treated in the hospital. Of these:


Surgical Cases 1426
Diarrhea 327
Constipation 253
Angina 79
Diabetes 4
Heart Condition 25
Scabies 62
Pneumonia 75
Influenza 136
Internal Disorders 268
Others 449
Infections:
Scarlet Fever 5
Mumps 16
Measles 5
Erysipelas 5.«
Why weren't they gassed in May or June? :lol: Look at a small clip from part 2.
The presence of Hungarian Jews in other localities sounds rather strange. In Stutthof arrived from Kaunas in Latvia:

54 Hungarian female Jews (Registration Numbers 48,947 – 49,000) on July 19 as part of a transport with a total of 1,097 female Jews.[58]
588 Hungarian female Jews on August 4 as part of a transport with 793 female Jews, of which 743 are known by name.[59]

From Riga in Latvia arrived in Stutthof:

484 Hungarian Jewesses known by their names on August 9 as part of a transport with 6,383 Jewesses, of which 1,858 are known by name. The percentage of Hungarians among these Jewesses known by name is therefore 26%.[60]
15 Hungarian Jewesses on October 1 as part of a transport of 1,777 Jewesses, of which 817 are known by name.[61]

A total of at least 1,141 Hungarian Jewesses were transferred from Kaunas and Riga to Stutthof.
And there are just the ones we KNOW about. Not all Hungarians went to Auschwitz to die. Here's another clip from part 2. The special action was about securing labour.
The deportation of Hungarian Jews was to begin in the east of the country;
The purpose of the transports was for work deployment;
The shortest way to reach the destination was over Lemberg.

Already a cursory look on the map shows, that the shortest way from East Hungary into the »eastern territories« was indeed over Lemberg.

It is therefore clear that the original plan for the deportation of Hungarian Jews was the transport of work-capable Jews to the occupied eastern territories, where they undoubtedly were to build fortifications against the Soviets within the frame work of the organization Todt. This could possibly be in connection with the Hitler-order of March 8, 1944 for the erection of fortifications in the eastern territories, among others in Bobrujsk, Mogilew, Orša and Witebsk.

The presence of Hungarian Jews in Kaunas and Riga could be explained under this circumstance. Presumably some transports were sent directly from Hungary via Lemberg to the Baltic states.

Many transports from East Hungary (Felsővisó, Kőrömezó, Máramarossziget, Huszt, Iza, Munkács) went indeed over Stryj to Lemberg,[71] and everything therefore indicates, that some transports did not go westward to Przemysl-Auschwitz, but northward into the eastern territories, as was provided by the original plan. This is further confirmed by the fact that on May 25 at least one Jewish transport from Hungary arrived in Lublin/Majdanek, which without doubt came from East-Hungary.[72]

The number of 1,141 Hungarian Jewesses who were deported from Kaunas and Riga to Stutthof, but who were only a part of the deportees, would in this case correspond to the number of two transports.[73] (This of course is also true in the case that these Jewesses were sent from Auschwitz to thee Baltic states.[74]

Non-employable inmates rest with their belongings in the forest near the crematorium IV. An old man climbs down the slight bank at the edge of the fire pond in order to fill some water into a metal container.[75]

It is worth to mention in this connection, that exactly at the time when the deportations from Hungary started, i.e. on May 15, 1944 a transport with 878 – almost all employable – Jews from Drancy in France left for Kaunas.[76]

In any case is it certain, that Auschwitz as a “Sammellager” (collection camp) was only a temporary solution, because as we have seen the camp administration was totally taken by surprise by the enormous inflow of prisoners and had no time to make the necessary provisions for an orderly housing of the future forced laborers of the Reich. This of course would have been true to even larger measure for the alleged “Ausrottungsvorrichtungen” (extermination devices).

The deportation of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz was officially designated as »Sonderaktion Ungarn-Programm« (special action Hungarian program),[77] where the word »Programm« refers to the planned work deployment like for example the »Jäger-Bauprogramm« (Jäger construction program), while the expression »Sonderaktion« (special action) refers only to the deportation.[78]
Matttogno then continues and finishes part 2 with this:
What was the fate of the Non-Employable Hungarian Jews?

At the present level of knowledge we cannot answer this question with certainty supported by documents. The revisionist criticism has proven, based on air-photos taken by US reconnaissance planes as well as the capacity of the crematoriums, that non-employable Jews were not at all »gassed after their arrival«. This is further confirmed by the pictures in the previously mentioned Album d’Auschwitz.

First several photos in this album show all chimneys of the crematoriums (Crematoriums II and III: photo 6 on p. 51, photo 7 on p. 53, photo 17 on p. 63; crematoriums IV and V: photo 99 on p. 131, photo 125 on p. 155), but from none of these exits smoke.[79]But if the non-employable Hungarian Jews were gassed, the crematoriums would have been in continuous operation day and night in the second half of May 1944 (the pictures in the Album d’Auschwitz were taken on May 26), and even then could they only have cremated a small part of the “gassed”.[80]

Secondly, the pictures show that the employable Jews left all their luggage back on benches, while on the other hand the non-employable could keep some luggage, consisting of knapsacks and bags. Especially clear on this are photos 6 on p. 51, photo 163 on p. 185 (where the non-employable, mostly children, even carried two large cooking pots), photo 165 on p. 187 as well as photo 169 on p. 191. Why were the non-employable sent into the “gas chambers” with bags, knapsacks and cooking pots? The photos show further that the non-employable rested in the orchard close to the fire water pond east of the crematorium IV. (the photo 174 on p. 194 shows in the foreground an old man who is about to climb down the slight bank of the fire pond in order to scoop up water into a metal container.) In none of the photos are people shown in the yards of the crematoriums II and III, although these were quite spacious. Especially important are in this connection the photos 152 and 153 on p. 176 and 177, which are shown in the wrong chronological sequence. The events shown on photo 153 actually preceded those on photo 152, because on the latter the group of people, which appears on the first one in front of the east wing of crematorium III, already passed the entrance gate to the yard of the crematorium, which can be seen on the right margin of the picture. And finally, the entrance gate is closed. It is therefore obvious that the non-employable went down the camp street, which led parallel to the railroad track passed the crematorium II and III, then turned right, through the “Zentralsauna” (central sauna) and the “Effektenlager” (storage for valuables), then continued past the west side of crematorium IV, then again to the right and finally entered the orchard at the fire pond.

If these non-employables were destined for “gassing”, why then was a large part of them not sent to the yards of the crematoriums II and III with the alleged gas chambers of much higher capacity and – actually - much more capable cremation ovens than in crematoriums IV and V? Is not the assumption much more logical that these people who kept their hand luggage, waited for the departure from Auschwitz?

The question to where these non-employables were sent is however much more difficult to answer. The case of the Hungarian Jews who were deported to Straßhof could give us an idea how they were housed. In the “Gau Niederdonau” (State of Lower Danube) the Jews were accommodated in 175 quarters, where also the non-employable stayed and which were called “family camps”.[81] And at least until June 22, 1944 was the military front in the north still east of the line Narva-Opocka-Vitebsk-Bobrujsk, and a considerable part of the eastern territories, infinitely much larger than the Gau Niederdonau, was still in German hands.
Here is part 3.
https://codoh.com/library/document/357/?page=3

Look at all those Jews from the photo album allegedly photographed on the way to their death and yet they aren't anywhere NEAR the yard of the crematoria with the alleged homicidal gas chambers in the below ground corpse cellars. Nessie talks out of his ass again. :lol: [/size]
We also found that many historians have twisted documents with the phrase "sonderkommando" in it. Turns out there was more than one sonderkommando in Auschwitz, not just a bunch of Jews pulling corpses out of gas chambers. And once again, "special treatment" or "special action" mean innocent things a lot. Check out "Curated Lies" by Carlo Mattogno.
viewtopic.php?p=118367#p118367
http://www.holocausthandbooks.com/index ... ge_id=1011

Turnagain
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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Turnagain »

Asher wrote:
“ While deniers argue that there were other uses of Sonderbehandlung in the Nazi vocabulary (and a rare exception indeed appeared now and then)...
Who are you quoting? Apparently some hoaxer who admits that "sonderbehandlung" wasn't used exclusively for a term that meant murder. You should cherry-pick your quotes more carefully, Asher.

Turnagain
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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Turnagain »

Hey, Asher, here's a quote from Carlo Mattogno.
Carlo Mattogno, The Real Case for Auschwitz, (Castle Hill Publishers, 2019), pp. 30-31

As I have pointed out in a specific study (2016c, pp. 9f.), all terms containing the prefix “Sonder-” (“special”) were taken by the Polish investigators to be “code words” referring to homicidal gassings. For their purported “deciphering,” they started with the assumption of the existence of homicidal gas chambers in the Birkenau Crematoria and then inferred the criminal significance of the “Sonder-” terms mentioned in accordance with that assumption. Later on official historiography proceeded the other way round: starting out from the assumption that the terms in question had a criminal significance, the existence of homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz was inferred. Not even Pressac was able to extricate himself from this impotent circular reasoning when taking over the “criminal traces” listed by Dawidowski. Fact is, though, that the terms “Sonderbehandlung” (special treatment), “Sondermassnahmen” (special measures), “Sondertransporte” (special transports), “Sonderkommando” (special detail), “Sonderaktion” (special action), “Sonderkeller” (special basement), “Spezialeinrichtungen” (special installations),” “Badeanstalten für Sonderaktionen” (baths for special actions) have nothing to do with any alleged homicidal gassings (ibid., Part Two, pp. 29-105).
Code words. You betcha', Asher.

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Lupus Rothstein
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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Lupus Rothstein »

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
Lupus wrote:
I've already told you why i 'doubt' their claim. They saw the hermetically sealed doors, and incorrectly (but understandably) assumed the whole chamber must be hermetically sealed too.
So, in your opinion the eyewitnesses didn't know if the the alleged gas chambers were hermetically sealed or not. Opinions are like a certain bodily orifice, everyone has one. What you "believe" doesn't disprove the witness testimony.
Unless you can prove they carried out a detailed full inspection of the chambers, and were qualified to arrive at an accurate assessment, which you have failed to do up to know, then you're snookered and you're argument is worthless. If you want more time to complete this task, then just let me know.
Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
So, the hole in the roof was to ensure the chamber was not hermetically sealed, and when Wiernik referred to it as a 'hermetic cap' only he knows what he meant, but if there is a 'cap' then there must be a hole, so my two more qualified witnesses have proven the chambers were NOT fully hermetically sealed.
Again, Lupus presents his opinion. It's my opinion that when Wiernik said that the vent had a hermetic cap he meant that the vent was hermetically sealed.
Yes, but you haven't thought it through properly, and you are ignoring another key witness, Goldfarb. So your opinion is incorrect. For one, did Wiernik confirm that the cap was in place over the hole DURING a gassing ? You see, a hole in the roof would need covering when the gas chamber was idle, wouldn't it ? But during the gassing it would be open, hence no hermetically sealed chamber.

But more importantly, Wiernik did not actually claim the whole room was hermetically sealed. He just said the doors were, and there was a hermetic cap. So it makes me wonder what your other 10 witnesses actually claimed. According to you they all claimed the gas chambers were hermetically sealed, but you haven't produced any of their testimonies or statements, so lets see what they actually said, yeah ?
Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
The existence of gas chambers is a proven fact as both perpetrators and victims confirmed they did.
So, you have one group of witnesses who obviously lied and another group who gave coerced testimony. That doesn't prove or confirm anything. Neither does it explain the six witnesses who said that the gas chambers also functioned as vacuum chambers. How do you pump the air out of a vented chamber?


Turnagain pretends that he has been successful in proving coercion against the Nazis, but he needs to take a reality check and realise he has done nothing of the sort. So again, his argument collapses, and lies in pieces on the floor. The vaccum element is again just non-technically minded inmates having to make assumptions on what was going on in a strange building. The important thing is that they knew people were entering the building alive, but coming out dead . So for them, something sinister was going on , and considering none of them were experts in the gas chamber field, its only natural they would make assumptions. Maybe that is too much for you to imagine, but that's your problem.
Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
Then the existence of cremations/smells witnessed by multiple witnesses and the horrendously low survivor numbers ( a handful of survivors and only because they revolted and escaped) basically seals the deal.
The term "sonderbehandlung" has never been proven to be a euphemism for murder.
Yes it has. Especially in the context of the camps where gassing took place.
Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
As far as the "handful of survivors" there were at least 10,000 to 15,000 deportees who transited through Treblinka. Apparently you haven't seen the film clips of the survivor's testimony from the USC film archive. Two of the deportees stated that two full trainloads of deportees left Treblinka and there were numerous other statements of anywhere from 100 to 500 deportees being transported to the Lublin district. In addition, the USHMM has records of five deportees who transited through Treblinka along with an unknown number of other deportees so what the hell do you mean that only a handful escaped after a revolt?
Stop wasting my time quoting these peanut figures. Get real. According to your cranky calculations 950,000 Jews were deported to Treblinka, and you come back with 'evidence' for 15,000 ? Peanuts mate. Get real. Why do you always focus on Treblinka too ? Why don't you conjure up destinations for the hundreds of thousands who were sent to Chelmno , Sobibor and Belzec ? How many survivors from there ?

If you aren't familiar with the revolt at Treblinka, then whats the point of me explaining the simple fact that a few hundred escaped, and most of these were captured or killed afterwards. Now that's a handful compared to the '950,000' who were sent there , so what the hell are you on about ?
Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
Even if Rajman did not actually see the engines responsible for the gassing, I think if he applied a tiny amount of common sense, coupled with what he did actually see ( I believe he was a corpse carrier and observed the cremations) , and info he gained from others, then I would have thought he was more qualified to testify over the existence of gas chambers than any of your 11 witnesses would be to claim the chambers were 100% hermetically sealed. Yes ?
Rajzman was one of the eleven witnesses who testified that the gas chambers were hermetically sealed. That was at the IMt trial. I'm glad that you say that Rajzman was qualified to observe the gas chamber.
So what ? I said it is easier to confirm the existence of some form of technical or mechanical murder operation than it is to provide an accurate assessment over the hermetically sealed nature of a building. I asked you if you agreed but you have not answered, which most likely means you do agree but just can't admit it.
Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
Bomba, who claimed to have cut women's hair inside the gas chamber before they were gassed, said that when fuel costs became too expensive that the Germans began pumping the air out of the chambers to suffocate the victims. Chil Rajchman, another eyewitness, stated that the gas chambers also functioned as vacuum chambers.
Even if you have produced an accurate representtion of their testimony, so what ?
Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
Firstly you haven't addressed my points and questions regarding the 'soap' and 'katyn' situation. No doubt you have realised they blow your botch-job argument out the water, resulting in your latest 'sound of silence' stance.

Secondly , The IMT are merely listening to the testimony of Rajman, so how do you interpret this as being the IMT 'taking judicial notice of the existence of gas chambers ' ??? You appear to be getting seriously confused over this issue. You should have just admitted that your original claim was a massive howler, or an invention of a muddled-up mind.


Here are the three relevant articles of the IMT:
Article 19.

The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. It shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and nontechnical procedure, and shall admit any evidence which it deems to be of probative value.
Article 20.

The Tribunal may require to be informed of the nature of any evidence before it is entered so that it may rule upon the relevance thereof.
Article 21.

The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge but shall take judicial notice thereof. It shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of the United Nations, including the acts and documents of the committees set up in the various allied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and of records and findings of military or other Tribunals of any of the United Nations.
The court took judicial notice of Rajzman's testimony in that his claim that there were gas chambers had "probative value". Your claims seem to be the product of a muddled mind.
Turnagain ignores the 'soap' and 'katyn' examples again. Maybe he hasn't had enough time to conjure up an explanation . Instead he tries to make out that the testimony of a witness is automatically deemed to be factual and correct !!!!!! :lol: :lol: He really is getting in a mess over this. The reality is that the court would have heard the testimony and then made a decision over its veracity by examining all the other evidence. If the court felt the evidence all corroborated and therefore the testimony was credible and most likely true , then the guilt would be stated in their judgement. Simple.

So, Turnagain continues to tie himself up in knots in his pathetic attempt to prove his original claim that the 1960's trials took judicial notice of gas chambers and cremations. Probably best if you just threw the towell in, mate.
Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
I wrote:
Wiernik didn't state the purpose of the roof vent with the hermetic cap. He simply stated that there was a vent and it had a hermetic cap, it was hermetically sealed. Was the hermetic cap removed to aid in ventilation after a gassing? Wiernik doesn't say so that's unknown but that's the most likely explanation. Specifically, the purpose of a hermetic cap is to hermetically seal something. In this case, a roof vent.
Lupus wrote:
Already dealt with in my first response.
No, you didn't "deal with it" in your first response. You tried to weasel dodge the fact that Wiernik said that the vent had a hermetic cap. Neither did you deal with the six witnesses who stated that the gas chambers also functioned as vacuum chambers.


Yes I did deal with it. Scroll back. I've got no problems with Wiernik mentioning the cap, as you will see if you scroll back, or refer to my first response here. So why are you accusing me of dodging something that is piss-easy to explain ? Vacuums hve also been covered earlier in this response. It doesn't prove a thing only the expected confusion amongst prisoners trying to work out how come people enter a building alive and come out dead.
Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
Uh-huh, Wiernik said that there were five graves and Rajchman said that there were eleven. Wiernik said that the graves were 10X25X50 meters while Rajchman claimed that at least one of the graves was large enough to accommodate 250,000 cadavers. Rosenberg claimed that the graves were 120 meters long. Just some (heh-heh) "natural human behavior".

Kinda' like Arad, ARC, Sturdy-Colls et al. claiming that the M&H draglines from T-1 dug the graves. Just a little "mistake". Just like Wiernik claiming that the cadavers turned yellow from the CO, Rajchman claimed that they had black heads and blue torsos while Sergeant Schluch claimed that the victim's noses turned blue.

Wiernik also claimed that up to 500 people fit inside a 25 square meter room, a crowd density of 20 people per square meter. Of course, for Lupus, it's only important if the witnesses agree on gas chambers and graves. All of their clangers are just "natural human behavior".

No-one cares about all these differences over numbers, sizes and shapes. The only inconsistencies you need to worry about is where the Nazis deny the existence of graves/cremations etc and they insist Treblinka was a transit camp, while the Jews insist the existence of gas chambers and cremations in a death camp. Can't see any of them inconsistencies in that department, can you ? :lol: :lol:
Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
Well, according to your standards, that makes me a liar. Let's see that quote from Kues. I'm not convinced that he would make that much of an error.
Nothing about 'limbs from broken trees' that you originally claimed he wrote !
That's supposedly Kues writing about Glazar. Let's see a source for your quote and a link to it. In any case, that doesn't disqualify the wood detail going out from the camp to gather limbs for camouflaging the fences or for kindling for the magic Jew barbeque.
Not my standards, but yours.

Read it yourself https://codoh.com/library/document/1912/?lang=en


Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
So is this where you got your original figures from ?

Why do I get the impression you are either 1) ignorant of the facts or past debates that produce more relevant sources/data regarding cremations OR 2) aware of them but just want the "horrible results" to go away ?
Yep, there's a whole slew of entries giving the details and showing photos of actual cremations. When you say, "more relevant sources/data, are you referring to the claims of the nutzoid, Roberto? Let's see some of those "facts" that I'm supposedly so ignorant of.
So you are ignorant of them. So, that means you've been banging on about ridiculous amounts of wood required for the AR cremations for years without even realising that your assumptions were just fantasy. Sorry to tell you this but all these years you've been wasting your time , using incorrect calculations. Here's the research from Muelhenkamp :

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _8385.html - see table 8.4


Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
I'm not claiming 'large' quantities (like you have banded around) were used, and if any witnesses claim otherwise then i'm not aware of them, so I cannot post your requested 'quotes'.


Well, how much of this alleged wood was used to cremate the ~950,000 cadavers? Is the nutzoid your source for that claim? Or, like the so-called eyewitnesses, are you saying that the cadavers on the magic Jew barbeque managed to cremate themselves?
According to the above research from Roberto, using a more sensible 789,000 death tolll as opposed to your exaggerated 950,000 , then the wood requirement would be 15,022,500 kgs for Treblinka. Compare this to Mattogno's estimate of 151,882,500 kgs ! Mattogno was out by a massive 135,000,000 kgs !!!

No, the source for these results are actual experiments which you will read about if you can be bothered. There's plenty of serious science in the article, you deniers love all that stuff (when it suits of course) so it should be right up your street.
Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
Wow, a whole 20 cms ???? Get outa town ! So what are you trying to say here ? Whatever it is it won't help you one bit. And who claimed the grate was in the bottom of a 6 meter trench ?
Those were two witnesses who claimed that the concrete pylons were set on level ground. Leleko claimed that there was a one meter pit under them. The Laponder scale model of Treblinka shows the grates set on level ground. Just another case of, "natural human behavior" I suppose. Can't recall the name of the witness who claimed that the cremations took place in a 6 meter pit. I'll have to pull up Mattogno's and Kues' book on Treblinka for that so I'll post the name later.

A mixture of vagueness and a lie. Laponders model clearly shows a ditch under the rails , it also shows a fair amount of wood too, so this puts paid to your 'twigs' and 'toothpicks' nonsense.

Image

Looky here at the dark shadows under the empty rails, which can only be a pit. But while your gawping at it, look at all that wood under the rails with bodies on , not exactly twigs or toothpicks are they ? :lol:

Here's another angle showing the pit under the rail :

Image

So much for your 'level ground' fantasies :lol: :lol:



Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
So, looks like i've produced witnesses to help expalin the floss method, which you kept asking me to explain, and i've described the wick effect...
No, you've produced one witness who tells a conflicting story about the magic Jew barbeque. Neither have you accurately described the wick effect. I've found "wick effect" to be only referenced as an explanation for spontaneous human combustion. If you have a different definition then post a link to it.
What i've done is adequate. you asked me to explain how the floss method worked so i've told you. If you think it wouldnt work then you have to demonstrate why. Don't keep fretting over your 20 cm's here and there , ok ?

The wick effect present at the AR cremations is demonstrated by the following experiment :

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/holocau ... t2534.html

and from the research of Dr John DeHaan, a leading specialist in the forensic investigation of fires , from another HC article http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... pyres.html

relevant passage :
One of the leading specialists in forensic investigation of fires, Dr. John DeHaan, who, together with his colleagues, has burned quite a lot of corpses, both animal and human, in controlled environment, has this to say about combustion of human fat in his and Elayne Pope's presentation "Combustion Properties of Human and Large Animal Remains" [Powerpoint file]:
Fat only burned where it had been rendered and absorbed into carpet, towel, blanket, clothing or charred wood.
And under the figure 6 (my emphasis):
Charring of carpet or wood flooring supports the wick effect necessary to sustain combustion of rendered body fat.
In the concluding section of their article "Combustion of animal fat and its implications for the consumption of human bodies in fires" ([PDF], DeHaan, Campbell and Nurbakhsh, Science&Justice, 1999, vol. 39, no. 1), DeHaan and co-authors state (p.38):
It is clear that animal fat (and by extension human body fat, which is said to be very similar to the subcutaneous pork fat used here) can contribute to the fuel of a compartment fire. Its combustion depends on substantial preheating by an external heat source and the availability of a porous wick (such as charred cellulosic material).
In an e-mail correspondence Dr. DeHaan further elaborated on this point (message dated 11.11.2009):
Yes, unless there is a great deal of external radiant heat flux to keep the pool of fat at a very high temperature, it will not sustain combustion on a flat, non-porous surface. Just like candle wax will only burn on a smooth table top if you continually play a blow torch across it. We have had instances where a very corpulent body has released so much rendered fat that it forms a pool or stream that supports flame in the fire environment that a pool fire existed it is because the external fire was able to heat the liquified fat well past its flash point. (One commercial crematorium was burned down as a result, and others have been damaged!) Charred wood flooring or very porous concrete or lava-stone have been seen to act as a wick, so the nature of the floor is important.
Read it and weep :lol: :lol:


Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
You can claim whatever you like, but unless you can back it then I suggest you keep your fantasies and unfounded speculation to yourself.
What is an "unfounded speculation" or a "fantasy" about the Germans being able to cremate or bury some bodies? Seems like reasonable things to do with a corpse.
Your fantasy that I am referring to relates to your fantasy regarding the only dead Jews in Treblinka were mainly those who died on the trains or by natural causes. Which is connected to your other fantasy about these Jews ( you dont give a number) being the ones cremated and are responsible for the endless amount of smoke/flames and stench, for approx 3 months non-stop, Cos that sounds really plausible doesn't it :roll: :roll:

How many died a 'natural death' ? You better make it over 500,000 at least, otherwise it wont make any sense at all !
Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
No it wouldn't . Especially if most of the bodies were decomposed and falling apart. Again you do your usual and always go for the highest number, while ignoring some witnesses who mentioned 1,000 or 2,000 bodies. You did the same for the up to '950,000' death toll. Something else you dodged from my last post. Funny how deniers have to revert to these tactics isn't it ?
The claim for the number of victims at Treblinka varies up to a maximum of ~950,000. That's a fact. According to the Koherr report, a little over 700,000 were gassed and buried up to December 31, 1942. The order to commence cremating the corpses was allegedly given in early March, 1943. That leaves APPROXIMATELY 200,000 cadavers that were supposedly gassed and cremated without being buried. Since a trainload of deportees was claimed to be 60 cars and about 6,000 deportees, one trainload of deportees would require that both Jew barbeques be utilized for the freshly gassed victims. NONE of those cadavers would be decomposed and falling apart. There would be times when the freshly gassed cadavers would have had to have been stacked 30 bodies high. Revisionists use the numbers claimed by you hoaxers. Gee, what a "funny" tactic.
It maybe a 'fact' that the numbers vary. But lets keep it simple, 713,000 we definitely know were deported to Treblinka. So what evidence are you using to back up your 950,000 number ? Or are you just happy to accept the estimates of Holocaust historians, therefore exposing the double standards in your methodology ?
Turnagain wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:36 am
So according to you, if an ill-educated peasant, imprisoned in a death camp, traumatised and tortured, knowing his tormentors had wiped out all his family, could not precisely describe the workings of a gas chamber, without getting all the technical details correct, then he's a 'dumb-shit' ?

I think that in itself is enough to understand your vile and unintelligent nature. Again it reinforces my views about the 'calibre' of deniers.
Rajzman was an accountant so he wasn't an ill-educated peasant. Rosenberg wasn't an ill-educated peasant when he gave his testimony in 1961 which gave him 18 years to get over his trauma. He was, in fact, very specific about the gas chambers being hermetically sealed. Wiernik was an office worker, a building inspector, so couldn't have been too ill-educated. Care to name some of the "ill-educated" peasants?

I think that your belief in the fairy tales and fantasies told by these charlatans demonstrates your level of intelligence and the caliber of your fellow hoaxers.
Looks like another topic your totally ignorant about, the demographic and social status of your average Jew in Poland/Eastern Europe.

I don't understand what you're trying to say about Rosenberg. So just because 18 years had passed from someone experiencing the horrors of Treblinka, then everything is hunky dory 18 years later and your memory improves ? Wow ! Another ridiculous assumption ! You make a lot of them don't you ?

So even an accountant who can't explain the workings of gas chambers is a dumb shit to you ? Wow ! How mental is that ? So if a gas engineer struggled to understand double-entry book-keeping or how to calculate company Corportion Tax then according to you he would be a dumb shit too, yeah ?

Wiernik was a carpenter, actually. Where do you get your info from ? :roll:

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Sandhurst
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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Sandhurst »

From reading the wood business has been dealt with. No wood was cut in the area supporting the claim and no evidence of anything being railed or trucked in. The model shown above is a fantasy like the story.
"Never argue with the data." - Sheen, Jimmy Neutron

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