Origin and Content of DOK 239

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Roberto
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Re: Origin and Content of DOK 239

Post by Roberto »

Aryan Scholar wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:51 pm
Roberto wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:37 pm
Logical arguments should be met with logical arguments, not with requests for "authoritative (or even testimonial.

There's another argument supporting my point besides those already mentioned. Let's look at the description of the "individual graves" in that document (emphases added):
Individual graves

1. Community of Kaischedoren

1) In southerly direction 2 km from Kaischedoren by the road Kaischedoren-Zesmaren, lying low in the forest, there is a grave with 8-10 corpses, which is covered by a layer of soil up to 1 meter high.

2. By the village Palomene 12 km north of Kaischedoren along the road Palomene-Zaslen there is a grave with 8-12 corpses.

2. Community of Zaslen

In northerly direction 1 km from Zaslen by the road Zaslen-Gegusien there is a grave with 15-20 corpses. The grave is covered by a layer of soil up to 1 m high.

3. Community of Rudischken

In northerly direction 1 km from Rudischken, 200 m from the road Traken-Rudischken in the forest there is a grave with 15-20 corpses. The grave is covered by a layer of soil up to 1 m high.
In all these cases information about the contents of the graves, but no information about who made the graves or on whose land they are located.

So it's makes no sense, considering the document's internal logic, to assume that the term "Jewish mass graves" should have referred to anything other than the contents of these mass graves as being Jewish corpses. Applying one criterion (who had made them or on whose land they were located) in informing about the mass graves and another (what the contents of the grave were) in informing about the "individual graves" would have been inconsistent and illogical, besides confusing or misleading the reader.
This do not rule out the hypothesis the Jewish mass graves in DOK 239 could have also corpses and carcasses from gentiles and animals.
Actually it does, insofar as that hypothesis would contradict

a) the inner logic of the document (mentioning the makers of the graves or the owners of the land on which the graves were located here, mentioning the contents of the graves but neither their makers nor the owners of the respective land there),
b) it's informative value for the reader (who would have been confused or even misled), and
c) it's informative purpose (if the graves had been made by Jews or on Jewish land and contained animal carcasses and/or corpses of non-Jews, the Regional Commissioner would have had to be informed about the graves' contents that so that he could hold the Jews accountable for creating public health hazards or murdering gentiles, and resented the omission of such information).
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:37 pm
No problem.

(...)

All this evidence points to mass killings of Jews in all or some of the areas mentioned in DOK 239.

And as it points to mass killings in such areas, it also points to the existence of mass graves in such areas containing the corpses of those mass killings' victims, as it would make complete sense to bury the victims and no sense at all to leave their corpses lying around in the open.
Could you please stop to post wall of texts with quotes which do not say anything about the mass graves in DOK 239?

Please, quote the parts of the related evidence of DOK 239 which explicitly "points to mass graves containing the bodies of Jews who had met a violent death".
The "wall of text" are quotes from evidence or from references to evidence, and mass killings imply mass graves as the victims of mass killings are not usually left lying in the open or buried in individual graves.

But we can make this shorter.

Trakai area:

Jäger Report:
Sep. 30, 41 Trakai 366 [Jews] 483 [Jewesses] 597 [Jewish children] 1,446
Holocaust Atlas of Lithuania:
“About two weeks after the ghetto was established, 20–30 members of the Special Squad arrived in Trakai. A German petty officer travelled with them. According to testimony from some members of the Special Squad, Martin Weiss also went to Trakai.

“On September 30, 1941, men, women, children and the elderly were lined up in columns and escorted by armed guards – local policemen commanded by Kazimieras Vasilevskis, policemen from Aukštadvaris, Onuškis and Lentvaris and local white armbanders and Special Squad murderers – to the Varnikai forest and shot after many humiliations. The mass murder began in the morning and ended in the afternoon.

“The Jäger Report says 1,446 Jews were shot in Trakai on September 30, 1941, including 366 men, 483 women and 597 children.”
Address: Trakai district, Trakai administrative district, Varnikai village
Victim number: 1446
Perpetrators
Special Squad;
M. Weiss;
Trakai police, led by K. Vasilevskis;
police and white armbanders from Aukštadvaris, Onuškis and Lentvaris;
DOK 239:
In easterly direction 2 km from Traken, 1 km from the village of Wornicken, 1 km from the forest, 1 km from the lake, in a sandy depression, there is a Jewish mass grave 80 meters long, 4 meters wide and 4 meters deep.
Semeliškės area:

Jäger Report:
Oct. 6, 41 Semiliski 213 [Jews] 359 [Jewesses] 390 [Jewish children] 962
Holocaust Atlas of Lithuania:
During the first few days of October, a truck carrying about 20–30 members of the Special Squad arrived in Semeliškės from Vilnius. A German man came by car. He and head of the rural district of Semeliškės and the local police chief went to inspect the future killing site. The Jews of Semeliškės were killed on October 6, 1941. In the morning police from Semeliškės, Vievis and Žiežmariai who guarded the ghetto began to move Jews to the execution site. Another group of police guarded the pit. The executioners of the Special Squad forced small groups of Jews to the pit and shot them. The massacre lasted several hours. After returning to Semeliškės the shooters got drunk. The guards did not get any vodka.

“According to the Jäger report, 962 Jews were killed in Semeliškės: 213 men, 359 women and 390 children.”
Address: Semeliškės administrative district, Semeliškės forest, Elektrėnai district
Victim number: 962
Perpetrators
Special Squad;
head of the rural district of Semeliškės;
police chief of Semeliškės;
policemen from Semeliškės, Vievis and Žiežmariai
Witness interviewed by Yahad in Unum:
All the Jews were shot within the first year.
Soviet investigation report:
150-200 meters northwest of the Bovshi farmstead, in Semeliškės volost of Trakai Uyezd, there is a fenced cemetery that contains the remains of 1020 civilians brutally tortured and shot by German fascist monsters.
DOK 239:
In northerly direction 1 km from Semelischken by the forest, 50 m from the road, 2 km from the river Strawa on a sandy height, there is a Jewish mass grave about 30 m long. Drainage in the direction of Semelischken.
Kaišiadorys area 1:

Jäger Report:
August 26, 41 Kaisiadorys all Jews, Jewesses, Jewish children 1,911
Holocaust Atlas of Lithuania:
“The planned mass shooting of Jews began at the end of August, 1941. Initially the Gaižiūnai military installation was chosen as the site for the mass murder, then the site was changed to the Strošiūnai forest. Two sites were to be used for the mass murder: one in the so-called Vasiliev ditch, the other next to what is now the Vilnius–Kaunas highway.

“Jews held at a Kaišiadorys storehouse were murdered first. They were divided into groups of 20–30 and led to their execution. They shot men first, then women and children. By evening the storehouse was empty and 500 people had been shot. Jews in the ghetto and another warehouse were killed later.

“According to the Jäger Report, Jews from the Kaišiadorys ghetto and temporary isolation site, 1,911 people, were shot on August 26, 1941. It is believed that not all Jews in the Kaišiadorys ghetto and temporary isolation site could have been shot in one day. Thus it is thought that only the last day of the mass murders is indicated in the report. The main organizers of the mass murder of the Jews were SS-Obersturmführer Joachim Hamann’s Rollkommando and locals with white armbands, local police and local volunteers.”
Address: Kaišiadorys district, Žiežmariai administrative district, Strošiūnai forest (9th quadrant)
Victim number: 1911
Perpetrators
Rollkommando Hamann/1st Battalion, 3rd Unit;
DOK 239:
In northerly direction 5 km from Zesmaren, 2 km from the road Kaischedoren-Zesmaren, by the Bladukischer Forest there is a Jewish mass grave 30 meters long.
Kaišiadorys area 2 (Žiežmariai):

Jäger Report:
August 29, 41 Rumsiskis a. Ziezmariai 20 Jews, 567 Jewesses, 197 Jewish children 784
Holocaust Atlas of Lithuania:
“On August 29, 1941, the surviving Jewish women, children and elderly – in total 784 people – of Kaišiadorys and surrounding areas (Žasliai, Žiežmariai, Rumšiskės) were shot. Lithuanian self-defense unit, Rollkomando Hamann, local police and white armbanders took part in the mass murder.

“On November 3, 1952, a Soviet special commission studying the mass murder state determined the ditch had been 55 meters long, 3 meters wide and 2 meters deep. The ditch was filled with corpses up to one meter.”
Address: Kaišiadorys district, Žiežmariai administrative district, Strošiūnai forest (28th quadrant)
Victim number: 784
Perpetrators
Rollkommando Hamann/1st Battalion 3rd Unit;
Kaišiadorys white armbanders and police;
DOK 239:
In northerly direction 5 km from Zesmaren, 2 km from the road Kaischedoren-Zesmaren, by the Bladukischer Forest there is a Jewish mass grave 30 meters long.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).


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Aryan Scholar
Posts: 4652
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Re: Origin and Content of DOK 239

Post by Aryan Scholar »


Soviet CHGK reports about Semeliškių

GARF 7021-94-431
The Yad Vashem Archives hold a vast collection of documents amassed by the Soviet Extraordinary State Commission (ChGK).

The following report of the ChGK from August 27, 1944 contains a description of the mass murder of the Jews in Semeliškės:

… northwest of the Bovshi Farm in the Semeliškės District, Trakai County, some 150-200 meters away, is an enclosed cemetery containing 1,020 bodies of innocent citizens, tortured and shot to death by the human animals, the German Fascists.
At the end of September 1941, close to 1,000 innocent citizens – men, women and children – were brought under reinforced convoy to the designated place (see above) by the Germans. The children were undressed some fifty meters from the dug ditch, struck with sticks, then their eyes were bound and they were shot. The murders were carried out in groups of six. The sick, brought in carts, were thrown alive into the pit and then shot. In this manner, 1,020 people were murdered from 10 am until 6 pm. Moans and cries were heard for two to three hours. ... The victims were divided into groups of men and women, and were shot in the same groups. ... Among the victims were also Soviet prisoners of war ....

Soviet Extraordinary State Commission
The State Extraordinary Commission for the Determination and Investigation of Nazi and their Collaborators' Atrocities in the USSR (ChGK) was established in November 1942 to investigate the damage caused to civilians, public organizations, factories and State institutions in the USSR. In addition, the ChGK collected evidence of Nazi war crimes and evaluated damage to the economy in Soviet territories liberated from Nazi occupation. The ChGK conducted their operations from the Central Commission in Moscow. ChGK branches in various districts and areas in the USSR collected all relevant documentation and forwarded it to the Central Commission.
[source]
RG-22.002M.7021-94/438
"150-200 meters northwest of the Bovshi farmstead, in Semeliškės volost of Trakai Uyezd, there is a fenced cemetery that contains the remains of 1020 civilians brutally tortured and shot by German fascist monsters. At the end of September 1941, about 1000 men, women and children were brought by the Germans to the place mentioned above under heavy escort. Victims were undressed about 50 meters from the ditch, beaten with sticks, then blindfolded and shot. They were shot in groups of six people. Sick victims were thrown from the cart into the pit and shot inside the pit. In this way, from 10 AM until 6 PM, 1020 men and women were shot. Screams and moans could be heard from 2-3 kilometers away." [Local government commission report, compiled on August 27, 1944, RG-22.002M.7021-94/438]

[source]

Roberto wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:44 pm
The context of the report shows that the "cemetery" is not a cemetery containing individual graves but a mass grave. The fencing-in of the mass graves is mentioned in DOK 239:
The mass graves were sprinkled with chlorinated lime and covered with soil in 1941. In the spring of 1942 the graves were uncovered, sprinkled with chlorinated lime, covered with a layer of soil up to 1 meter high and fenced in.
Not if the 30m long Semeliškių Jewish mass grave described in DOK 239 was located in a place with a cemetery:
Jewish murders and graves (UK 11285) (Semeliškių district, about 500 m. In the north-east of Semeliškių);

[source]
The name of the forest in the above location is Dargonių forest:
Near the village (Dargonių forest) - the mass murder of the Jewish burial site.

[source]
There is indeed a cemetery in Dargonių forest with six burial areas. One of this areas have two Jewish gravestones (of four individual graves).
Unikalus objekto kodas 11285

Dėl duomenų patikslinimo; 2009-08-19; Nr: KPD-RM-1164;
13. Vertybės (1941 m.) vertingosios savybės (toliau - savybės) yra: 13.2.3. ivairios išraiškos formos - ŠV teritorijos dalyje esantys antkapinių paminklų tipai su lrašais hebrajų rašmenimis: pilko granito paminklas, betono paminklas ir 2 gulsčios betono plokštės (-; būklė patenkinama; TRP 2, 3, 4, 5; FF Nr. 9-12; 2009 m.); 13.2.4. žemės ir jos paviršiaus elementai - reljefas (gana lygi miško aikštelė, nežymiai žemėjanti i ŠV pusę; -; TRP; FF Nr. 1-2, 4-5; 2009 m.); Semelfškių ir Žaslių mstl., Vievio m. žydų tautybės gyventojų palaikai (bendroje kapavietėje su nužudytaisiais palaidoti ir 4 žydų tautybės gyventojai, mirę po Antrojo pasaulinio karo; -; -; -;); 6 antkapiniai žemės sampilai, apjuosti lauko akmenų bordiūru (-; būklė gera; TRP; FF Nr. 3, 6; 2009 m.); 13.4. Artimiausios supančios aplinkos kultūrinio kraštovaizdžio autentiškumas - objektą supantis kraštovaizdis (visose pusėje kalvota vietovė; paviršius apaugęs mišku; -; TRP; 2009 m.); 13.5. Faktai apie svarbius visuomenės ir valstybės istorijos ivykius - 1941-10-06 nacistinės Vokietijos valdžios suorganizuotos egzekucijos metu nužudyta ir užkasta 962 Semeliškių ir Žaslių mstl., Vievio m. žydų tautybės gyventojai: 213 vyrų, 359 moterys ir 390 vaikų.

[source]
Image

Nekenojamog kultūros vertybė:
(1) žydų žudynių vieta ir kapai (11285, IV 681)
Teritorijos vertingosios savybės:
(2) Paminklas I
(3) Paminklas II
(4) Antkapinė plokštė I
(5) Antkapinė plokštė II
Kiti objektai teritorjoje:
(6) Paminklas III
(7) Tvora


Necessary cultural value:
(1) The place of massacre of the Jews and graves (11285, IV 681)
Territory's Values:
(2) Monument I
(3) Monument II
(4) a gravestone I
(5) a gravestone II
Other objects in the territory:
(6) Monument III
(7) Fence
FF08
Image

FF10
Image

FF12
Image

FF13
Image

FF14
Image

[source]
Notice the land register 19/08/2009 document only mention a monument built in 1965 (above images FF13 and FF14) and 2 Jewish gravestones (of four individual graves as seen in the above images FF08, FF10, FF12) in one of 6 burial areas, not any mass grave. The land register 29/05/2017 document (see here) then exclude the 6 burial areas and 2 gravestones of the draw plan (see here). So the Dargonių forest cemetery terrain (UK 11285) is not registered as having any Jewish mass grave, but registered as "the place of massacre of the Jews and graves". Notice, as well, the cemetery is located in a depression, while the 30m long Semeliškių Jewish mass grave described in DOK 239 was located in a "sandy knoll". Notice, finally, one Jewish gravestone is marked 1900-1946 (see above image FF12) and the another Jewish gravestone is marked ?-1941 (see above image FF10 then see this image from the original image from here).

The inscription in the monument built in 1965 (above images FF13 and FF14) says:
Inscription: “At this place the Nazis and their helpers spilled the blood of 960 Jewish children, women and men on October 6, 1941” (in Yiddish)

[source]
So, in accordance with the above authoritative evidence which shows the Dargonių forest cemetery already existed in 1941 (and continued to be used after), where do you believe the 30m long Semeliškių Jewish mass grave described in DOK 239 is exactly located in the Dargonių forest cemetery? Who and how many people do you believe it is buried in the 30m long Semeliškių Jewish mass grave described in DOK 239? The 962 Jewish people described in the 1965 monument or/and the 1020 civilians and soviet prisoners of war described in two 1944 Soviet ChGK Reports?

Roberto wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:44 pm
The figure comes from an obviously Soviet report.
Actually the 1944 figure (1020 civilians; innocent citizens - men, women and children) comes from two Soviet CHGK reports as show above.
Roberto wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:44 pm
The Lithuanian collaboration government would hardly have investigated German killings and referred to the killers as "German fascist monsters". The Vilnius area in August 1944 was under the control of the Soviets, who had taken Vilnius on 13 July 1944, see under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation ... _Offensive. By "precise" I didn't mean that the number is exact but that it is rendered down to tens ("1,020" instead of "1,000"). The accuracy of the figure is suggested by the fact that it is not much higher than Jäger's figure for this area (962). If, as the precision of the figure suggests, the Soviets excavated and counted the corpses, then either Jäger undercounted or another 58 corpses were buried in the grave after Jäger's operation.
But the Soviets did not "excavated and counted the corpses" in Semeliškių, instead, the details in the two above Soviet CHGK reports about Semeliškių were obtained from hearsay, anecdotal and testimonial evidence (anonymous sources), which was then compiled in Moscow to be used against the Germans:
The State Extraordinary Commission for Investigation of Nazi War Crimes (ChGK) was established in the Soviet Union in 1942. (...) The task of the Commission was to gather documents and prepare files from the documentation received from the subcommittees that had been set up in conjunction with the regional, district, and village councils. (...) The members of the committees interviewed the residents of every town and village and received information on what had happened in these places during the war years. The documentation collected helped in the preparation of the war crimes trials of Nazis held in various places in the Soviet Union during the 1940s. The ChGK ceased its activities in 1946.

[source]
Moreover, the 1944 figure (1020 civilians; innocent citizens - men, women and children) could be part of the figure of 37640 "Soviet [Lithuanian] citizens" alleged mass killed by in the "Lithuanian S.S.R." by the Germans:

Jewish Virtual Library, Nuremberg Trial Proceedings, Indictment Count Three:
All the defendants committed War Crimes between 1 September 1939 and 8 May 1945, in Germany and in all those countries and territories occupied by the German Armed Forces since 1 September 1939, and in Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Italy, and on the High Seas. (...) All the defendants, acting in concert with others, formulated and executed a Common Plan or Conspiracy to commit War Crimes as defined in Article 6 (b) of the Charter. (...) In the Lithuanian S.S.R. there were mass killings of Soviet citizens, namely: in Panerai at least 100,000; in Kaunas more than 70,000; in Alitus about 60,000; at Prenai more than 3,000; in Villiampol about 8,000; in Mariampol about 7,000; in Trakai and neighboring towns 37,640.

[source]

Roberto wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:44 pm
The omission of the victims' Jewish ethnicity would make the report unreliable only in this respect, but not logically lead to the conclusion that the report in unreliable as a whole and no mass killing took place in the Semeliškės area (moreover as the Jäger Report mentions mass killing of Jews in this area and DOK 239 mentions a Jewish mass grave in the same area).
Roberto wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:44 pm
Irrelevant because a) the Soviets tended to avoid pointing out that the victims were Jews, and b) the Germans are not exactly known to have executed large numbers of non-Jewish Lithuanian civilians. On the other hand, the Jäger Report mentions the killing of Jews in the area in question.
Your argument implies the Soviets deliberately used the allegations of mass murder of Jewish people to falsely accuse the Germans of torture and shot Lithuanian civilians (or Soviet citizens as show above) and Soviets prisoners of war in Semeliškių. This is quite likely as the Soviets are well know for manipulate and fabricate material to be used against the Germans and/or the Lithuanians.


Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Origin and Content of DOK 239

Post by Roberto »

Aryan Scholar wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:32 pm

Soviet CHGK reports about Semeliškių

GARF 7021-94-431
The Yad Vashem Archives hold a vast collection of documents amassed by the Soviet Extraordinary State Commission (ChGK).

The following report of the ChGK from August 27, 1944 contains a description of the mass murder of the Jews in Semeliškės:

[...SNIP...]

[source]

[source]

[source]

Notice the land register 19/08/2009 document only mention a monument built in 1965 (above images FF13 and FF14) and 2 Jewish gravestones (of four individual graves as seen in the above images FF08, FF10, FF12) in one of 6 burial areas, not any mass grave. The land register 29/05/2017 document (see here) then exclude the 6 burial areas and 2 gravestones of the draw plan (see here). So the Dargonių forest cemetery terrain (UK 11285) is not registered as having any Jewish mass grave, but registered as "the place of massacre of the Jews and graves".
What is the relevance of this information?
Aryan Scholar wrote:Notice, as well, the cemetery is located in a depression, while the 30m long Semeliškių Jewish mass grave described in DOK 239 was located in a "sandy knoll". Notice, finally, one Jewish gravestone is marked 1900-1946 (see above image FF12) and the another Jewish gravestone is marked ?-1941 (see above image FF10 then see this image from the original image from here).

The inscription in the monument built in 1965 (above images FF13 and FF14) says:
Inscription: “At this place the Nazis and their helpers spilled the blood of 960 Jewish children, women and men on October 6, 1941” (in Yiddish)

[source]
So, in accordance with the above authoritative evidence which shows the Dargonių forest cemetery already existed in 1941 (and continued to be used after), where do you believe the 30m long Semeliškių Jewish mass grave described in DOK 239 is exactly located in the Dargonių forest cemetery?
The mass grave area seems to be fenced-in area with a marker inside that is shown in several images under http://www.holocaustatlas.lt/EN/#a_atla ... ia/images/. One of the images seems to be identical with the image below:

https://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semeli%C5 ... nklas.JPG

The picture is from the Lithuanian site about Semeliškės (https://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semeli%C5%A1k%C4%97s). The caption reads "Į šiaurės rytus nuo Semeliškių yra žydų holokausto masiniai kapai", which translates as "In the north-east of Semeliškių Jewish Holocaust mass graves". The page contains the following information:
Masinė žydų žudynių vieta[redaguoti | redaguoti vikitekstą]
Į šiaurės rytus nuo Semeliškių yra žydų holokausto masiniai kapai
Į šiaurės rytus nuo Semeliškių yra masinio žydų holokausto vieta. 1941 m. spalio 6 d. nacistinės Vokietijos valdžios suorganizuotos Einsatzgruppen grupės egzekucijos metu nužudyta ir užkasta 962 Semeliškių, Žaslių ir Vievio žydų tautybės gyventojai: 213 vyrų, 359 moterys ir 390 vaikų. [9] Prieš sušaudymą žydai buvo laikomi buvusiuose kultūros namuose Semeliškėse.
Which translates as:
The mass murders of Jews [edit | Wikitext edit] In the north-east of Semeliškių Jewish Holocaust mass graves in the north-east of Semeliškių are mass Jewish Holocaust place. 1941. 6 October. Nazi German government organized executions of the Einsatzgruppen were killed and buried 962 Semeliškių, Žaslių and Vievio Jewish population: 213 men, 359 women and 390 children. [9] Before the shootings were considered Jews in the former House of Culture Semeliškės.


Where do you see a depression in the fenced-in area around the marker in the above picture? Does that area lie lower than the area surrounding it?
Aryan Scholar wrote:Who and how many people do you believe it is buried in the 30m long Semeliškių Jewish mass grave described in DOK 239? The 962 Jewish people described in the 1965 monument or/and the 1020 civilians and soviet prisoners of war described in two 1944 Soviet ChGK Reports?
The two propositions are not mutually exclusive, as the 962 murdered Jews mentioned in the Jäger Report and on the monument marker were Soviet civilians. So these are in the grave for sure. Additionally there may be another 58 corpses in the grave, which may be of Soviet prisoners of war as such are mentioned in one of the quoted Soviet reports. These would have been added to the grave at some time after Jäger's operation.
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:44 pm
The figure comes from an obviously Soviet report.
Actually the 1944 figure (1020 civilians; innocent citizens - men, women and children) comes from two Soviet CHGK reports as show above.
OK, two reports then.
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:44 pm
The Lithuanian collaboration government would hardly have investigated German killings and referred to the killers as "German fascist monsters". The Vilnius area in August 1944 was under the control of the Soviets, who had taken Vilnius on 13 July 1944, see under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation ... _Offensive. By "precise" I didn't mean that the number is exact but that it is rendered down to tens ("1,020" instead of "1,000"). The accuracy of the figure is suggested by the fact that it is not much higher than Jäger's figure for this area (962). If, as the precision of the figure suggests, the Soviets excavated and counted the corpses, then either Jäger undercounted or another 58 corpses were buried in the grave after Jäger's operation.
But the Soviets did not "excavated and counted the corpses" in Semeliškių, instead, the details in the two above Soviet CHGK reports about Semeliškių were obtained from hearsay, anecdotal and testimonial evidence (anonymous sources), which was then compiled in Moscow to be used against the Germans:
The State Extraordinary Commission for Investigation of Nazi War Crimes (ChGK) was established in the Soviet Union in 1942. (...) The task of the Commission was to gather documents and prepare files from the documentation received from the subcommittees that had been set up in conjunction with the regional, district, and village councils. (...) The members of the committees interviewed the residents of every town and village and received information on what had happened in these places during the war years. The documentation collected helped in the preparation of the war crimes trials of Nazis held in various places in the Soviet Union during the 1940s. The ChGK ceased its activities in 1946.

[source]
First of all, why "anonymous sources"?

Second, I don't see how it follows from the above quote that the Soviets conducted no excavation at the place in question. The State Extraordinary Commission for Investigation of Nazi War Crimes and its subcommittees are known to have conducted excavations and exhumed corpses at other places. Reports about such excavations/exhumations and pictures thereof are available.
Aryan Scholar wrote:Moreover, the 1944 figure (1020 civilians; innocent citizens - men, women and children) could be part of the figure of 37640 "Soviet [Lithuanian] citizens" alleged mass killed by in the "Lithuanian S.S.R." by the Germans:

Jewish Virtual Library, Nuremberg Trial Proceedings, Indictment Count Three:
All the defendants committed War Crimes between 1 September 1939 and 8 May 1945, in Germany and in all those countries and territories occupied by the German Armed Forces since 1 September 1939, and in Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Italy, and on the High Seas. (...) All the defendants, acting in concert with others, formulated and executed a Common Plan or Conspiracy to commit War Crimes as defined in Article 6 (b) of the Charter. (...) In the Lithuanian S.S.R. there were mass killings of Soviet citizens, namely: in Panerai at least 100,000; in Kaunas more than 70,000; in Alitus about 60,000; at Prenai more than 3,000; in Villiampol about 8,000; in Mariampol about 7,000; in Trakai and neighboring towns 37,640.

[source]
It probably is. The murdered Jews were Soviet citizens, after all. The term "Soviet citizens" was obviously used to avoid pointing out the Jewish ethnicity of these "Soviet citizens".
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:44 pm
The omission of the victims' Jewish ethnicity would make the report unreliable only in this respect, but not logically lead to the conclusion that the report in unreliable as a whole and no mass killing took place in the Semeliškės area (moreover as the Jäger Report mentions mass killing of Jews in this area and DOK 239 mentions a Jewish mass grave in the same area).
Roberto wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:44 pm
Irrelevant because a) the Soviets tended to avoid pointing out that the victims were Jews, and b) the Germans are not exactly known to have executed large numbers of non-Jewish Lithuanian civilians. On the other hand, the Jäger Report mentions the killing of Jews in the area in question.
Your argument implies the Soviets deliberately used the allegations of mass murder of Jewish people to falsely accuse the Germans of torture and shot Lithuanian civilians (or Soviet citizens as show above) and Soviets prisoners of war in Semeliškių.
No, my argument is that, in a fact-based accusation of mass murder of civilian Soviet citizens the Soviets omitted the Jewish ethnicity of the murdered civilians Soviet citizens, in order to avoid pointing out Jews a "special" victims of the Nazis. The dead were not supposed to be "divided" according to ethnicity. All Soviet nationalities (including ethnic Lithuanians) were supposed to have suffered equally under Nazi rule.
Aryan Scholar wrote:This is quite likely as the Soviets are well know for manipulate and fabricate material to be used against the Germans and/or the Lithuanians.
The mass killing of civilian citizens of Soviet Lithuania who were of Jewish ethnicity was not fabricated. The only "manipulation" in the Soviet report, considering associated evidence like the Jäger Report, was the omission that the murdered civilian citizens of Soviet Lithuania had been Jewish civilians citizens of Soviet Lithuania.

What "material" regarding German crimes in the USSR (other than the well-known Katyn evidence) is supposed to have been "manipulated" and "fabricated" in order "to be used against the Germans and/or the Lithuanians", by the way?

I also don't understand how German crimes against citizens of Soviet Lithuania could have been used against "the Lithuanians".
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: Origin and Content of DOK 239

Post by Aryan Scholar »

Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
What is the relevance of this information?
It shows there are not any record of any Jewish mass grave in the Dargonių forest cemetery (UK 11285) Lithuanian land register (authoritative evidence, primary source).
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
The mass grave area seems to be fenced-in area with a marker inside that is shown in several images under http://www.holocaustatlas.lt/EN/#a_atla ... ia/images/. One of the images seems to be identical with the image below: https://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semeli%C5 ... nklas.JPG

The picture is from the Lithuanian site about Semeliškės (https://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semeli%C5%A1k%C4%97s). The caption reads "Į šiaurės rytus nuo Semeliškių yra žydų holokausto masiniai kapai", which translates as "In the north-east of Semeliškių Jewish Holocaust mass graves".
That is the monument built in 1965 with the inscription in Yiddish “At this place the Nazis and their helpers spilled the blood of 960 Jewish children, women and men on October 6, 1941”.
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
Where do you see a depression in the fenced-in area around the marker in the above picture? Does that area lie lower than the area surrounding it? The two propositions are not mutually exclusive, as the 962 murdered Jews mentioned in the Jäger Report and on the monument marker were Soviet civilians. So these are in the grave for sure. Additionally there may be another 58 corpses in the grave, which may be of Soviet prisoners of war as such are mentioned in one of the quoted Soviet reports. These would have been added to the grave at some time after Jäger's operation.
From one side and from another side of the cemetery terrain.

The cemetery terrain is in a depression, with the monument built in 1965 at the center of the depression.

Confirmed by a record in the Lithuanian land register (see here):
Terrain (depression, post-war areas in NW build two tombstones, 1965. built a memorial monument in the central part of the territory; TRP 1, 2-4; FF No. 1-14, 2009., 2017.);
Do you believe the 30m long Semeliškių Jewish mass grave described in DOK 239 is a grave under the 1965 monument in the Dargonių forest cemetery (UK 11285) with the mortal remains of 1020 Soviet civilians?

Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
First of all, why "anonymous sources"? Second, I don't see how it follows from the above quote that the Soviets conducted no excavation at the place in question. The State Extraordinary Commission for Investigation of Nazi War Crimes and its subcommittees are known to have conducted excavations and exhumed corpses at other places. Reports about such excavations/exhumations and pictures thereof are available.
It does not also follow from the Soviet ChGK reports the Soviets conducted excavation at the place in question, it is just an imaginary authoritative evidence which you presume to exist in order to argue the figure of the Soviet ChGK reports are based on a precise body count, not on hearsay, anecdotal and testimonial evidence. Please, bring reliable, verifiable and related evidence on the table, not inventions to claim a figure from Soviet ChGK reports are "precise", "accurate", etc.
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
Aryan Scholar wrote:Moreover, the 1944 figure (1020 civilians; innocent citizens - men, women and children) could be part of the figure of 37640 "Soviet [Lithuanian] citizens" alleged mass killed by in the "Lithuanian S.S.R." by the Germans.
It probably is. The murdered Jews were Soviet citizens, after all. The term "Soviet citizens" was obviously used to avoid pointing out the Jewish ethnicity of these "Soviet citizens".
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
The two propositions are not mutually exclusive, as the 962 murdered Jews mentioned in the Jäger Report and on the monument marker were Soviet civilians. So these are in the grave for sure. Additionally there may be another 58 corpses in the grave, which may be of Soviet prisoners of war as such are mentioned in one of the quoted Soviet reports. These would have been added to the grave at some time after Jäger's operation.
But "The dead were not supposed to be "divided" according to ethnicity. All Soviet nationalities (including ethnic Lithuanians) were supposed to have suffered equally under Nazi rule". Where is the monument with the inscription “At this place the Nazis and their helpers spilled the blood of 1020 Soviet Lithuania citizens at the end of September 1941”?
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
No, my argument is that, in a fact-based accusation of mass murder of civilian Soviet citizens the Soviets omitted the Jewish ethnicity of the murdered civilians Soviet citizens, in order to avoid pointing out Jews a "special" victims of the Nazis. The dead were not supposed to be "divided" according to ethnicity. All Soviet nationalities (including ethnic Lithuanians) were supposed to have suffered equally under Nazi rule.
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
The mass killing of civilian citizens of Soviet Lithuania who were of Jewish ethnicity was not fabricated. The only "manipulation" in the Soviet report, considering associated evidence like the Jäger Report, was the omission that the murdered civilian citizens of Soviet Lithuania had been Jewish civilians citizens of Soviet Lithuania. What "material" regarding German crimes in the USSR (other than the well-known Katyn evidence) is supposed to have been "manipulated" and "fabricated" in order "to be used against the Germans and/or the Lithuanians", by the way? I also don't understand how German crimes against citizens of Soviet Lithuania could have been used against "the Lithuanians".
There is also the omission of the supposed collaborators (if not the real perpetrators) of mass killings who were of "all Soviet nationalities" but Germans. The Soviet ChGK reports about Semeliškių are obvious authoritative evidence fabricated by the Soviets to be used against the Germans regardless if the allegations of mass murder of civilians (or innocent citizens, or soviet prisoners of war) investigated by the commissioners were true or not. You just accepted above the Soviets engaged in the manipulation of the primary sources in question. Game over.

Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
The two propositions are not mutually exclusive, as the 962 murdered Jews mentioned in the Jäger Report and on the monument marker were Soviet civilians. So these are in the grave for sure. Additionally there may be another 58 corpses in the grave, which may be of Soviet prisoners of war as such are mentioned in one of the quoted Soviet reports. These would have been added to the grave at some time after Jäger's operation.
Your above hypothesis defeats your previous argument regarding the meaning of "Jewish mass grave" in DOK 239:
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:25 pm
The argument is that "Jewish mass grave" would not have been a term used for a mass grave containing something other than dead Jews, for the reasons explained. And that, besides, the possibility of the mass graves in question containing something other than dead Jews is not borne out by other evidence, whereas all related evidence points to mass graves containing the bodies of Jews who had met a violent death.
Roberto wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:06 pm
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:19 pm
Not if the recipient of DOK 239, Hurst Wulff, already know in advance what were the content of the Jewish mass graves described by Dr. Paskevicius.
Advance knowledge of mass graves made by Jews or on Jewish land containing something other than dead Jews would be highly unlikely. Advance knowledge of Jäger's killing activities, on the other hand, would be very likely.

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Re: Origin and Content of DOK 239

Post by Aryan Scholar »

Roberto wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:37 pm
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:00 pm
Please, quote the parts of the related evidence of DOK 239 which explicitly "points to mass graves containing the bodies of Jews who had met a violent death".

Let's see it.
3. Mass execution of Jews from Semeliškės and nearby villages is mentioned under http://yahadmap.org/#village/semeli-k-s ... huania.784. The link leads to a transcription/translation of or from a witness interview:
Bronislawa, born in 1933, recollects: “All the Jews were shot within the first year. Later, the Germans were asking around if there were any Jews left. People used to snitch on each other. In Žuvyčiai, the Germans found a person who hid Jews. They were all taken to the nearby forest. The Jews were shot and the person who provided shelter was acting crazy after that scene. They wanted to shoot him too, but they didn’t. There was one Lithuanian serving the Germans so he stood up for him. There was a notice saying that all the members of the family would be shot if someone was hiding Jews. But people still hid them and saved them. (Witness N°6, interviewed in Semeliškės, on September 19, 2013)
All this evidence points to mass killings of Jews in all or some of the areas mentioned in DOK 239. And as it points to mass killings in such areas, it also points to the existence of mass graves in such areas containing the corpses of those mass killings' victims, as it would make complete sense to bury the victims and no sense at all to leave their corpses lying around in the open.
Žuvyčiai, a village 4 KM from Semeliškės, is not mentioned in DOK 239.
Atstumas nuo Žuvyčių iki kai kurių miestų ir gyvenviečių: Semeliškės 4 km

[source]
The nearby forest (miškas in Lithuanian) of Žuvyčiai mentioned by the above anonymous witness can just be Budilių forest, Pagrendos forest or Jagelonių forest, not Dargonių forest:
Žuvyčiai

Gyvenvietės tipas: kaimas

Koordinatės: 54.6882272, 24.6083739

Artimiausi ežerai, tvenkiniai, upės, miškai, parkai iki 10 km atstumu.

Vuolasta (upė)
Budilių miškas [see here]
Smukuinis (ežeras)
Gelvaitis (ežeras)
Gelvis (ežeras)

Laumena (ežeras)
ežeras Dėlinis
Pagrendos miškas [see here]
Strėva (upė)
Jagelonių miškas [see here]

[source]
The above testimonial evidence (hearsay from witness N°6 interviewed in Semeliškės on 19 September 2013) do not "points to mass killings of Jews in all or some of the areas mentioned in DOK 239".
Roberto wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:37 pm
Besides, some of the aforementioned sources expressly mention graves:
In the morning police from Semeliškės, Vievis and Žiežmariai who guarded the ghetto began to move Jews to the execution site. Another group of police guarded the pit. The executioners of the Special Squad forced small groups of Jews to the pit and shot them.
What is the primary source for the above quote?

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Re: Origin and Content of DOK 239

Post by Roberto »

Aryan Scholar wrote:post_id=108663 time=1498488351 user_id=646]
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
What is the relevance of this information?
It shows there are not any record of any Jewish mass grave in the Dargonių forest cemetery (UK 11285) Lithuanian land register (authoritative evidence, primary source).
And what is supposed to follow from that?
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
The mass grave area seems to be fenced-in area with a marker inside that is shown in several images under http://www.holocaustatlas.lt/EN/#a_atla ... ia/images/. One of the images seems to be identical with the image below: https://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semeli%C5 ... nklas.JPG

The picture is from the Lithuanian site about Semeliškės (https://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semeli%C5%A1k%C4%97s). The caption reads "Į šiaurės rytus nuo Semeliškių yra žydų holokausto masiniai kapai", which translates as "In the north-east of Semeliškių Jewish Holocaust mass graves".
That is the monument built in 1965 with the inscription in Yiddish “At this place the Nazis and their helpers spilled the blood of 960 Jewish children, women and men on October 6, 1941”.
And so?
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
Where do you see a depression in the fenced-in area around the marker in the above picture? Does that area lie lower than the area surrounding it? The two propositions are not mutually exclusive, as the 962 murdered Jews mentioned in the Jäger Report and on the monument marker were Soviet civilians. So these are in the grave for sure. Additionally there may be another 58 corpses in the grave, which may be of Soviet prisoners of war as such are mentioned in one of the quoted Soviet reports. These would have been added to the grave at some time after Jäger's operation.
From one side and from another side of the cemetery terrain.

The cemetery terrain is in a depression, with the monument built in 1965 at the center of the depression.

Confirmed by a record in the Lithuanian land register (see here):
Terrain (depression, post-war areas in NW build two tombstones, 1965. built a memorial monument in the central part of the territory; TRP 1, 2-4; FF No. 1-14, 2009., 2017.);
What is a depression, the area on which the memorial monument is placed?
Aryan Scholar wrote:Do you believe the 30m long Semeliškių Jewish mass grave described in DOK 239 is a grave under the 1965 monument in the Dargonių forest cemetery (UK 11285) with the mortal remains of 1020 Soviet civilians?
I see no reason why the mass grave in question should not be under or near the marker. Is there supposed to be one?
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
First of all, why "anonymous sources"? Second, I don't see how it follows from the above quote that the Soviets conducted no excavation at the place in question. The State Extraordinary Commission for Investigation of Nazi War Crimes and its subcommittees are known to have conducted excavations and exhumed corpses at other places. Reports about such excavations/exhumations and pictures thereof are available.
It does not also follow from the Soviet ChGK reports the Soviets conducted excavation at the place in question, it is just an imaginary authoritative evidence which you presume to exist in order to argue the figure of the Soviet ChGK reports are based on a precise body count, not on hearsay, anecdotal and testimonial evidence. Please, bring reliable, verifiable and related evidence on the table, not inventions to claim a figure from Soviet ChGK reports are "precise", "accurate", etc.
Logical arguments are not inventions, and the Soviet ChGK and its sub-committees did conduct excavations and exhumations, though not always and in some sites only some graves were opened and/or only a part of the corpses were exhumed. Some examples:
In March 1944, the Bronnaia Gora site was visited by Sonderkommando 1005, the SS unit under Paul Blobel responsible for exhuming and cremating the evidence of German mass murder. In central Russia and Belorussia, SK 1005 was active near many of the larger towns: reports survive of its operations at Smolensk, Mogilev, Borisov, Bobruisk and Minsk. But not, it would seem, at the smaller raion capitals and the rural shtetls. Thus, while Soviet investigators found at Bronnaia Gora only ashes and empty graves of the dimensions described above, elsewhere in the Brest region and the Polesie as a whole, they repeatedly were directed by eyewitnesses and local informants to the sites of a score of other intact mass graves.

Smoliarka, then, was one such exhumation. Christian Gerlach mentions another, at the town of Drogichin, where the Extraordinary Commission recorded in Akt No. 5 of November 2, 1944 that a mass grave totalling a volume of 1092 cubic metres was opened. It was evidently exhumed in its entirety, as the report indicates 3,186 corpses were found in the mass grave: 895 men, 1083 women and 1838 children.

Such precision was far from always the case with Soviet exhumation protocols: unsurprisingly, most of the investigators preferred to open a grave, measure its dimensions, check the identity of the corpses (i.e., whether in military uniform and therefore Soviet prisoners of war, or in civilian clothing), and estimate their number based on a volume calculation.


The above quote is from the blog article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... lesie.html
“In the 13 grave-pits opened in Kharkov and its immediate vicinity were found a huge number of corpses. In most graves they lay in extreme disorder, fantastically intertwined, forming tangles of human bodies defying description. The corpses lay in such a manner that they can be said to have been dumped or heaped but not buried in common graves. In two pits in the Sokolniki forest park bodies were found lying in straight rows, face downward, arms bent at the elbow and hands pressed to faces or necks. All the bodies had bullet wounds through the heads. Such a position of the bodies was not accidental. It proves that the victims were forced to lie down face downward and were shot in that position. In the grave pits where the bodies lay and in places where the bodies had been burnt the medico-legal experts found articles of everyday use and personal effects, such as bags, sacks, knives, pots, mugs, spectacles, fasteners of women’s handbags, etc. The fact revealed by the investigation—namely, that before being murdered Soviet citizens were stripped of their footwear—is fully confirmed by the medico-legal examinations: during exhumation the experts in most cases discovered naked or half-naked bodies.

“In order to ascertain which Soviet citizens were exterminated and in what manner, the experts exhumed and examine 1,047 bodies in Kharkov and its environs. These included the bodies of 19 children and adolescents, 429 women and 599 men. The dead ranged in age from two to 70 years. The fact that the bodies of children, adolescents, women and old men as well as invalids were discovered in grave-pits with civilian clothes and articles of domestic use and personal effects on the bodies or near them proves that the German fascist authorities exterminated Soviet citizens regardless of sex or age. On the other hand, the fact that the bodies of young and middle-age men were found clothes of military cut worn in the Red Army, also articles of military equipment (pots, mugs, belts, etc.) is evidence of Soviet war prisoners.
2) South of the N.-Volynsk street, 8 kilometres away from Zhitomir, in the forest along the way leading to the village of Barachevka, 28 graves and two uncovered pits were discovered. When opening the graves 14,110 corpses were found. There was found a whole grave full of bodies that were completely unclad. In one grave was found the corpse of a women who had a bind with a huge red cross on her arm. A large part of the bodies had their hands tied with wire or strips. In one of the uncovered pits four well-conserved corpses were found, 3 men and one women. In the clothes of the male corpse papers on the name Vlassov, F.I., resident at Zhitomir, Proviantskaja 13/14, were found. The dead man’s wife, Mrs. Vlassova A.C., stated that he had been arrested by the Gestapo in Dezember 1943 because he was under suspicion of having hidden Jews and kept a rifle in his apartment.[…]
The number and size of the mass graves is not quite clear; only some of them were opened. Generally their number in Blagovshchina is given at 34 (Rübe and Heuser spoke of 15-18, interrogation as mentioned in previous note), of which, however, and contrary to the description of Kohl, page 97, only some were up to 50 meters long, instead of all being 60 meters long. Their volume was thus considerably lower than 25,000 cubic meters (which at an estimated maximum of 6 corpses per cubic meter would have corresponded to up to 150,000 murdered people), but cannot be indicated exactly.
The number of dead in the mass grave of Urechye, 6 kilometers to the east of Minsk, which the Soviet authorities estimated at 30,000 taking into consideration the depositions of witnesses, was about 12,500 according to the description of the mass graves. [Footnote: These were 10 mass graves with an area of 24 by 5 meters, wherein corpses were found in three rows and seven layers on top of each other. See Act of 13.8.1944, City of Minsk, Special Archive Moscow 1525-I-473, pages 309-316; “The Evidence Collected at Minsk”, Nuremberg Document USSR-38, Federal Archives Freiburg 16030.
The above four quotes are from the blog article http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... found.html. For further references see there.

Exhumed bodies can also be seen on Soviet photos or film stills, e.g. those shown in the blog articles under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... hotos.html, http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... cists.html, http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... cists.html and http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -nazi.html.

So why should the Soviets not have excavated the mass grave at Semeliškių? How do you explain the precise figure "1,020" (instead of something like "about 1,000") in the Soviet reports, which moreover is only slightly higher than the figure in the Jaeger Report?
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
Aryan Scholar wrote:Moreover, the 1944 figure (1020 civilians; innocent citizens - men, women and children) could be part of the figure of 37640 "Soviet [Lithuanian] citizens" alleged mass killed by in the "Lithuanian S.S.R." by the Germans.
It probably is. The murdered Jews were Soviet citizens, after all. The term "Soviet citizens" was obviously used to avoid pointing out the Jewish ethnicity of these "Soviet citizens".
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
The two propositions are not mutually exclusive, as the 962 murdered Jews mentioned in the Jäger Report and on the monument marker were Soviet civilians. So these are in the grave for sure. Additionally there may be another 58 corpses in the grave, which may be of Soviet prisoners of war as such are mentioned in one of the quoted Soviet reports. These would have been added to the grave at some time after Jäger's operation.
But "The dead were not supposed to be "divided" according to ethnicity. All Soviet nationalities (including ethnic Lithuanians) were supposed to have suffered equally under Nazi rule". Where is the monument with the inscription “At this place the Nazis and their helpers spilled the blood of 1020 Soviet Lithuania citizens at the end of September 1941”?
Should there necessarily be such a monument? The Soviet investigation reports were drawn up in 1944, when the "do not divide the dead" rule applied. The monument was placed more than 20 years later, at a time when a) the Soviet principles of 1944 need no longer have applied and b) the Jaeger Report was obviously known in Lithuania.
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
No, my argument is that, in a fact-based accusation of mass murder of civilian Soviet citizens the Soviets omitted the Jewish ethnicity of the murdered civilians Soviet citizens, in order to avoid pointing out Jews a "special" victims of the Nazis. The dead were not supposed to be "divided" according to ethnicity. All Soviet nationalities (including ethnic Lithuanians) were supposed to have suffered equally under Nazi rule.
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
The mass killing of civilian citizens of Soviet Lithuania who were of Jewish ethnicity was not fabricated. The only "manipulation" in the Soviet report, considering associated evidence like the Jäger Report, was the omission that the murdered civilian citizens of Soviet Lithuania had been Jewish civilians citizens of Soviet Lithuania. What "material" regarding German crimes in the USSR (other than the well-known Katyn evidence) is supposed to have been "manipulated" and "fabricated" in order "to be used against the Germans and/or the Lithuanians", by the way? I also don't understand how German crimes against citizens of Soviet Lithuania could have been used against "the Lithuanians".
There is also the omission of the supposed collaborators (if not the real perpetrators) of mass killings who were of "all Soviet nationalities" but Germans.
Mention of collaborators (who would have acted under German orders, according to the Jaeger Report) would hardly be convenient to a party line that sought to portray Soviet citizens as victims only.
Aryan Scholar wrote:The Soviet ChGK reports about Semeliškių are obvious authoritative evidence fabricated by the Soviets to be used against the Germans regardless if the allegations of mass murder of civilians (or innocent citizens, or soviet prisoners of war) investigated by the commissioners were true or not. You just accepted above the Soviets engaged in the manipulation of the primary sources in question. Game over.
That's what I would call jumping to conclusions. The Soviets may have omitted certain inconvenient details (the Jewish ethnicity of the victims, the participation of Lithuanian collaborators), but there's no reason to assume that they made up a mass killing that is also mentioned in other evidence.
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
The two propositions are not mutually exclusive, as the 962 murdered Jews mentioned in the Jäger Report and on the monument marker were Soviet civilians. So these are in the grave for sure. Additionally there may be another 58 corpses in the grave, which may be of Soviet prisoners of war as such are mentioned in one of the quoted Soviet reports. These would have been added to the grave at some time after Jäger's operation.
Your above hypothesis defeats your previous argument regarding the meaning of "Jewish mass grave" in DOK 239:
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:25 pm
The argument is that "Jewish mass grave" would not have been a term used for a mass grave containing something other than dead Jews, for the reasons explained. And that, besides, the possibility of the mass graves in question containing something other than dead Jews is not borne out by other evidence, whereas all related evidence points to mass graves containing the bodies of Jews who had met a violent death.
Why, because I'm considering the possibility that a reduced number of POWs were added later to the grave? That wouldn't change its essentially Jewish contents (962 Jews vs. 58 non-Jews), so calling the grave a "Jewish mass grave" was warranted. Besides, the addition of further corpses may have occurred after the DMO's letter or not been known to him for some reason.
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:06 pm
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:19 pm
Not if the recipient of DOK 239, Hurst Wulff, already know in advance what were the content of the Jewish mass graves described by Dr. Paskevicius.
Advance knowledge of mass graves made by Jews or on Jewish land containing something other than dead Jews would be highly unlikely. Advance knowledge of Jäger's killing activities, on the other hand, would be very likely.
What is the reader supposed to conclude from the underlying?
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Aryan Scholar
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Re: Origin and Content of DOK 239

Post by Aryan Scholar »

Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
And what is supposed to follow from that?
If follows no Jewish mass grave was found in the Dargonių forest cemetery.
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
And so?
The 1965 monument is just recorded as monument in the Lithuanian land register, not as any mark of a Jewish mass grave.
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
What is a depression, the area on which the memorial monument is placed?
Yes, contrary to a "sandy knoll" where the 30m long Semeliškių Jewish mass grave described in DOK 239 was located.
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
Aryan Scholar wrote:Do you believe the 30m long Semeliškių Jewish mass grave described in DOK 239 is a grave under the 1965 monument in the Dargonių forest cemetery (UK 11285) with the mortal remains of 1020 Soviet civilians?
I see no reason why the mass grave in question should not be under or near the marker. Is there supposed to be one?
Yes, it is not recorded in the Lithuanian land register.

Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
Logical arguments are not inventions, and the Soviet ChGK and its sub-committees did conduct excavations and exhumations, though not always and in some sites only some graves were opened and/or only a part of the corpses were exhumed. Some examples: (...) So why should the Soviets not have excavated the mass grave at Semeliškių?
Your argument is a logical fallacy, not any logical evidence:
Proving Non-Existence
Description: Demanding that one proves the non-existence of something in place of providing adequate evidence for the existence of that something. Although it may be possible to prove non-existence in special situations, such as showing that a container does not contain certain items, one cannot prove universal or absolute non-existence. The proof of existence must come from those who make the claims.
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
How do you explain the precise figure "1,020" (instead of something like "about 1,000") in the Soviet reports, which moreover is only slightly higher than the figure in the Jaeger Report?
It was fabricated from hearsay, anecdotal, and testimonial evidence.
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
Should there necessarily be such a monument? The Soviet investigation reports were drawn up in 1944, when the "do not divide the dead" rule applied. The monument was placed more than 20 years later, at a time when a) the Soviet principles of 1944 need no longer have applied and b) the Jaeger Report was obviously known in Lithuania.
So what happened? Those hypothetical new rules "only include Jews and exclude Soviet [Lithuanian] citizens"? If it the figure of the Soviet ChGK reports are so credible, then why it was not also included in the Lithuanian land register?
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
Mention of collaborators (who would have acted under German orders, according to the Jaeger Report) would hardly be convenient to a party line that sought to portray Soviet citizens as victims only.
Not if the perpetrators were Soviet citizens, which is extremely convenient.
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
That's what I would call jumping to conclusions. The Soviets may have omitted certain inconvenient details (the Jewish ethnicity of the victims, the participation of Lithuanian collaborators), but there's no reason to assume that they made up a mass killing that is also mentioned in other evidence.
Of course there is, regardless of this mass killing being mentioned in any other evidence: the Soviets are well know for manipulate and fabricate evidence to be used against the Germans.

Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
The two propositions are not mutually exclusive, as the 962 murdered Jews mentioned in the Jäger Report and on the monument marker were Soviet civilians. So these are in the grave for sure. Additionally there may be another 58 corpses in the grave, which may be of Soviet prisoners of war as such are mentioned in one of the quoted Soviet reports. These would have been added to the grave at some time after Jäger's operation.
Your above hypothesis defeats your previous argument regarding the meaning of "Jewish mass grave" in DOK 239:
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:25 pm
The argument is that "Jewish mass grave" would not have been a term used for a mass grave containing something other than dead Jews, for the reasons explained. And that, besides, the possibility of the mass graves in question containing something other than dead Jews is not borne out by other evidence, whereas all related evidence points to mass graves containing the bodies of Jews who had met a violent death.
Why, because I'm considering the possibility that a reduced number of POWs were added later to the grave?
Yes, that hypothesis ("possibility") defeats your previous argument regarding the meaning of "Jewish mass grave" in DOK 239.

Roberto
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Re: Origin and Content of DOK 239

Post by Roberto »

Aryan Scholar wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:42 pm
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
And what is supposed to follow from that?
If follows no Jewish mass grave was found in the Dargonių forest cemetery.
No, that doesn't logically follow at all. If I understood correctly, the place is registered as "the place of massacre of the Jews and graves". The term "graves", in the context of "the place of massacre of the Jews", hardly means the few individual graves in the fenced-in area visible on photographs, or those graves alone. It obviously refers to or includes the mass grave pertaining to the "massacre of the Jews". Besides, on the pictures provided one sees a large area with only a few individual graves and the monument fenced in. Why do you think there is a fencing around this area?
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
And so?
The 1965 monument is just recorded as monument in the Lithuanian land register, not as any mark of a Jewish mass grave.
That's hardly relevant, considering the inscription on the monument and the fact that the place is registered as "the place of massacre of the Jews and graves".
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
What is a depression, the area on which the memorial monument is placed?
Yes, contrary to a "sandy knoll" where the 30m long Semeliškių Jewish mass grave described in DOK 239 was located.
Are you sure?

Look at the pictures below, which you provided:

Image

Image

The pictures seems to have been taken from either longitudinal side of the fence. Both pictures, especially the lower one, show that the ground declines in the direction of the monument, which with its surroundings lies quite a bit lower than the place from which the photograph was taken. So the place from which the photograph was taken may well be a height/knoll. As to the depression, how do you think it came into being?
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
Aryan Scholar wrote:Do you believe the 30m long Semeliškių Jewish mass grave described in DOK 239 is a grave under the 1965 monument in the Dargonių forest cemetery (UK 11285) with the mortal remains of 1020 Soviet civilians?
I see no reason why the mass grave in question should not be under or near the marker. Is there supposed to be one?
Yes, it is not recorded in the Lithuanian land register.
That's no reason, as explained above.
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
Logical arguments are not inventions, and the Soviet ChGK and its sub-committees did conduct excavations and exhumations, though not always and in some sites only some graves were opened and/or only a part of the corpses were exhumed. Some examples: (...) So why should the Soviets not have excavated the mass grave at Semeliškių?
Your argument is a logical fallacy, not any logical evidence:
Proving Non-Existence
Description: Demanding that one proves the non-existence of something in place of providing adequate evidence for the existence of that something. Although it may be possible to prove non-existence in special situations, such as showing that a container does not contain certain items, one cannot prove universal or absolute non-existence. The proof of existence must come from those who make the claims.
I'm not asking you to prove non-existence of a Soviet excavation. I'm asking you to answer a question.

Considering
a) the precise number of victims stated ("1,020" as opposed to "about 1,000", "at least 1,000", or "over 1,000", suggesting that a count and not merely an estimate was made), and
b) evidence that Soviet investigators conducted excavations and exhumations in mass graves containing victims of Nazi crimes elsewhere in the reconquered territories,
should one rule out the possibility that the Soviets also conducted an excavation of the Semeliškių mass grave?
If so, then why?
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
How do you explain the precise figure "1,020" (instead of something like "about 1,000") in the Soviet reports, which moreover is only slightly higher than the figure in the Jaeger Report?
It was fabricated from hearsay, anecdotal, and testimonial evidence.
That's a mere supposition, and besides neither of the types of evidence you mention would imply that the mass killing in question was "fabricated", especially as there's other evidence pointing to a mass killing by the German occupiers and their auxiliaries in this area.
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
Should there necessarily be such a monument? The Soviet investigation reports were drawn up in 1944, when the "do not divide the dead" rule applied. The monument was placed more than 20 years later, at a time when a) the Soviet principles of 1944 need no longer have applied and b) the Jaeger Report was obviously known in Lithuania.
So what happened? Those hypothetical new rules "only include Jews and exclude Soviet [Lithuanian] citizens"?
The Jews in question were citizens of the Soviet Union, more precisely of the Lithuanian SSR. And the Soviets don't seem to have been keen to erect monuments to Jewish victims of Nazi mass killings in the postwar period. Even later, monuments to murdered Jews or mentioning murdered Jews apparently had to be fought for by surviving Jewish communities. At Babi Yar at least this was the case:
Babi Yar in the post-Stalin years became a symbol of German atrocities in Russia, particularly against the Jews – a symbol in spite of itself, for Soviet authorities were not eager to perpetuate the memory of a crime directed so specifically against the Jews. At one time there were plans to bulldoze Babi Yar and to put up a housing development or an athletic center. After much bitterness a memorial monument was finally erected to "all" the victims, Russian and Jewish, at Babi Yar.
The above quote is from: Harrison E. Salibury, The Unknown War (Bantam Books, 1978), page 162.
Aryan Scholar wrote:If it the figure of the Soviet ChGK reports are so credible, then why it was not also included in the Lithuanian land register?
The marginally higher Soviet figure, unlike the figure of 962 murdered Jews stated in the Jäger Report, is not borne out by documentary evidence. And the memorial may have been erected pursuant to an initiative of the surviving local Jewish community.
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
Mention of collaborators (who would have acted under German orders, according to the Jaeger Report) would hardly be convenient to a party line that sought to portray Soviet citizens as victims only.
Not if the perpetrators were Soviet citizens, which is extremely convenient.
Actually Soviet citizens murdering helpless and innocent people following German orders is the most inconvenient detail I can think of, from the point of view of someone bent on portraying Soviet citizens as heroic fighters against or innocent victims of the Nazis only.
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
That's what I would call jumping to conclusions. The Soviets may have omitted certain inconvenient details (the Jewish ethnicity of the victims, the participation of Lithuanian collaborators), but there's no reason to assume that they made up a mass killing that is also mentioned in other evidence.
Of course there is, regardless of this mass killing being mentioned in any other evidence: the Soviets are well know for manipulate and fabricate evidence to be used against the Germans.
First of all, just how "well know for manipulate and fabricate evidence to be used against the Germans" are the Soviets supposed to have been? Is there any case other than Katyn that you know about?

Second, manipulation and fabrication of evidence can be safely ruled out where evidence other than Soviet reports confirms these reports. In this case we have the Jäger Report, DOK 239 and at least one corroborating post-Soviet witness as corroborating evidence. Regarding Jäger's activities in general or at other places there's also further evidence.
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:00 pm
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:21 pm
The two propositions are not mutually exclusive, as the 962 murdered Jews mentioned in the Jäger Report and on the monument marker were Soviet civilians. So these are in the grave for sure. Additionally there may be another 58 corpses in the grave, which may be of Soviet prisoners of war as such are mentioned in one of the quoted Soviet reports. These would have been added to the grave at some time after Jäger's operation.
Your above hypothesis defeats your previous argument regarding the meaning of "Jewish mass grave" in DOK 239:
Roberto wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:25 pm
The argument is that "Jewish mass grave" would not have been a term used for a mass grave containing something other than dead Jews, for the reasons explained. And that, besides, the possibility of the mass graves in question containing something other than dead Jews is not borne out by other evidence, whereas all related evidence points to mass graves containing the bodies of Jews who had met a violent death.
Why, because I'm considering the possibility that a reduced number of POWs were added later to the grave?
Yes, that hypothesis ("possibility") defeats your previous argument regarding the meaning of "Jewish mass grave" in DOK 239.
No it doesn't. A mass grave whose contents are 94 % Jewish civilians (962 out of 1,020) can still be rightfully called a "Jewish mass grave". And that's assuming that non-Jewish contents were added before the DMO's letter and the DMO knew about this, both of which was not necessarily the case.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Aryan Scholar
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Re: Origin and Content of DOK 239

Post by Aryan Scholar »

Roberto wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:52 pm
No, that doesn't logically follow at all. If I understood correctly, the place is registered as "the place of massacre of the Jews and graves". The term "graves", in the context of "the place of massacre of the Jews", hardly means the few individual graves in the fenced-in area visible on photographs, or those graves alone. It obviously refers to or includes the mass grave pertaining to the "massacre of the Jews". Besides, on the pictures provided one sees a large area with only a few individual graves and the monument fenced in. Why do you think there is a fencing around this area? (....) That's hardly relevant, considering the inscription on the monument and the fact that the place is registered as "the place of massacre of the Jews and graves". (...) Are you sure? Look at the pictures below, which you provided: The pictures seems to have been taken from either longitudinal side of the fence. Both pictures, especially the lower one, show that the ground declines in the direction of the monument, which with its surroundings lies quite a bit lower than the place from which the photograph was taken. So the place from which the photograph was taken may well be a height/knoll. As to the depression, how do you think it came into being? (...) That's no reason, as explained above.
There is not any record of any mass grave - but just a place of an alleged massacre of Jews - included in the Dargonių forest cemetery Lithuanian land register. I think there is a fence on the 708 m2 terrain to mark the Dargonių forest cemetery. Yes, I am sure the 1965 monument is not over a "sandy knoll". The land register is authoritative evidence (primary source) which shows no Jewish mass grave was found in the Dargonių forest cemetery.

Roberto wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:52 pm
I'm not asking you to prove non-existence of a Soviet excavation. I'm asking you to answer a question.

Considering
a) the precise number of victims stated ("1,020" as opposed to "about 1,000", "at least 1,000", or "over 1,000", suggesting that a count and not merely an estimate was made), and
b) evidence that Soviet investigators conducted excavations and exhumations in mass graves containing victims of Nazi crimes elsewhere in the reconquered territories,
should one rule out the possibility that the Soviets also conducted an excavation of the Semeliškių mass grave?
If so, then why?
Because:
Roberto wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:52 pm
The marginally higher Soviet figure, unlike the figure of 962 murdered Jews stated in the Jäger Report, is not borne out by documentary evidence.
Moreover, the possibility the Soviets conducted excavations and exhumations in a cemetery in Semeliškių is being rule out because it did not happened, it is a mere fabrication you made up to give credibility to a report you already admit was manipulated to be used against the Germans.
Roberto wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:52 pm
That's a mere supposition, and besides neither of the types of evidence you mention would imply that the mass killing in question was "fabricated", especially as there's other evidence pointing to a mass killing by the German occupiers and their auxiliaries in this area.
Even so, the figure is still in two Soviet CHGK reports which you admit were manipulated to be used against the Germans.
Roberto wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:52 pm
The Jews in question were citizens of the Soviet Union, more precisely of the Lithuanian SSR. And the Soviets don't seem to have been keen to erect monuments to Jewish victims of Nazi mass killings in the postwar period. Even later, monuments to murdered Jews or mentioning murdered Jews apparently had to be fought for by surviving Jewish communities. And the memorial may have been erected pursuant to an initiative of the surviving local Jewish community.
Surviving Jewish community? So the Jewish community (alleged put in a ghetto) of Semeliškių was not completely exterminated by the Germans?
Roberto wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:52 pm
Actually Soviet citizens murdering helpless and innocent people following German orders is the most inconvenient detail I can think of, from the point of view of someone bent on portraying Soviet citizens as heroic fighters against or innocent victims of the Nazis only. (...) First of all, just how "well know for manipulate and fabricate evidence to be used against the Germans" are the Soviets supposed to have been? Is there any case other than Katyn that you know about? Second, manipulation and fabrication of evidence can be safely ruled out where evidence other than Soviet reports confirms these reports. In this case we have the Jäger Report, DOK 239 and at least one corroborating post-Soviet witness as corroborating evidence. Regarding Jäger's activities in general or at other places there's also further evidence.
Neither the Jäger Report (no mention of "civilians" or "innocent citizens" as victims, no mention of the specific place of execution of the victims, different number of victims, different date of execution) or DOK 239 (no mention of the content of the "Jewish mass grave" in a forest in Semeliškių, no mention of a "cemetery") corroborates the Soviet CHGK reports about Semeliškių.

Who is the "corroborating post-Soviet witness" for allegations of mass murder of Soviet Lithuanian civilians in Semeliškių? If this testimonial evidence is the hearsay from witness N°6 interviewed in Semeliškės on 19 September 2013 it was already addressed here.
Roberto wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:52 pm
No it doesn't. A mass grave whose contents are 94 % Jewish civilians (962 out of 1,020) can still be rightfully called a "Jewish mass grave". And that's assuming that non-Jewish contents were added before the DMO's letter and the DMO knew about this, both of which was not necessarily the case.
So the other Jewish mass graves in DOK 239 could also have the corpses of gentiles (or carcasses?).

Got it.

Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
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Re: Origin and Content of DOK 239

Post by Roberto »

Aryan Scholar wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:17 pm
Roberto wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:52 pm
No, that doesn't logically follow at all. If I understood correctly, the place is registered as "the place of massacre of the Jews and graves". The term "graves", in the context of "the place of massacre of the Jews", hardly means the few individual graves in the fenced-in area visible on photographs, or those graves alone. It obviously refers to or includes the mass grave pertaining to the "massacre of the Jews". Besides, on the pictures provided one sees a large area with only a few individual graves and the monument fenced in. Why do you think there is a fencing around this area? (....) That's hardly relevant, considering the inscription on the monument and the fact that the place is registered as "the place of massacre of the Jews and graves". (...) Are you sure? Look at the pictures below, which you provided: The pictures seems to have been taken from either longitudinal side of the fence. Both pictures, especially the lower one, show that the ground declines in the direction of the monument, which with its surroundings lies quite a bit lower than the place from which the photograph was taken. So the place from which the photograph was taken may well be a height/knoll. As to the depression, how do you think it came into being? (...) That's no reason, as explained above.
There is not any record of any mass grave - but just a place of an alleged massacre of Jews - included in the Dargonių forest cemetery Lithuanian land register. I think there is a fence on the 708 m2 terrain to mark the Dargonių forest cemetery. Yes, I am sure the 1965 monument is not over a "sandy knoll". The land register is authoritative evidence (primary source) which shows no Jewish mass grave was found in the Dargonių forest cemetery.
The land register states no such thing. The existence of a mass grave is implicit in the site's description as "the place of massacre of the Jews and graves".

The fencing-in of an area much larger than would correspond to the handful of individual graves also indicates as mass grave site, and corresponds to the mention of a fence in DOK 239.

The photographs showing that the ground declines towards the place of the monument from both longitudinal viewpoints suggest the possibility of a depression in a height or knoll.

How would such depression have come into being? It may be a natural depression, but it may also have resulted from the mass grave having been covered with soil at ground level (as opposed to above ground level) and thus having "sunk" as air pockets in the excavated soil escaped and the corpses in the graves decomposed and accordingly lost volume. If the mass grave had been covered with a layer of soil sufficiently high above ground level, or if it had been filled with corpses above ground level and then covered with a layer of soil, the "sinking" would probably not have created such depression.

The phenomenon of such "sinking" was mentioned by survivor eyewitness Rudolf Reder regarding Belzec extermination camp, in his testimony in Cracow on 29 December 1945:
The corpses were thrown without order into the graves, only the upper layers, which protruded 1 meter above the level of the soil surrounding the grave, were ordered systematically, i.e. the corpses were laid in parallel one next to the other. The mound of corpses thus piled up the inmates covered with sand. Before covering lime was poured over the bodies. In the first days a high wall of soil rose above such a grave. As time went by the soil sank and the level slowly became even.
The above is a translation from the German translation in BAL (Bundesarchiv Ludwigsburg) B162/208 AR-Z 252/59, Bd. II, f. 1175 ff. (p. 1178). Emphases have been added.

The same phenomenon was mentioned by survivor eyewitness Eliahu Rosenberg regarding Treblinka extermination camp:
The pits somehow rose up and this – as we had covered it – the whole thing would suddenly rise up and it served as a kind of volcano from which a thick, viscous sort of material rose-colored and it was bubbling. It was a sort of vulcanized type of matter and the pit and the earth on top of the pit would rise up and then would suddenly drop, would subside. I don’t understand anything about the chemistry of this, but this is how it happened. And in these pits, to the extent that it had subsided, it had sunk, well we would top it up again.
(Demjanjuk trial, 25.2.87, pp. 1008-1009; emphasis added).

Even graves in which the buried corpses are inside a coffin tend to sink over time, as is mentioned under http://www.catholiccemeteries.com.au/wp ... -sheet.pdf:
The excavation of a grave, or any other reasonable size hole, results in the loosening of the excavated material.

When soil is replaced into a grave, it will inevitably contain more air pockets than the compacted soil before excavation. Over time, a backfilled grave will 'sink' as the air pockets escape and the soil settles; t
his is absolutely natural and practically unavoidable, especially in wet weather.
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:52 pm
I'm not asking you to prove non-existence of a Soviet excavation. I'm asking you to answer a question.

Considering
a) the precise number of victims stated ("1,020" as opposed to "about 1,000", "at least 1,000", or "over 1,000", suggesting that a count and not merely an estimate was made), and
b) evidence that Soviet investigators conducted excavations and exhumations in mass graves containing victims of Nazi crimes elsewhere in the reconquered territories,
should one rule out the possibility that the Soviets also conducted an excavation of the Semeliškių mass grave?
If so, then why?
Because:
Roberto wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:52 pm
The marginally higher Soviet figure, unlike the figure of 962 murdered Jews stated in the Jäger Report, is not borne out by documentary evidence.
That is no valid reason, as it is possible that further corpses were added to the grave after the mass killing perpetrated by Jäger's men.
Aryan Scholar wrote:Moreover, the possibility the Soviets conducted excavations and exhumations in a cemetery in Semeliškių is being rule out because it did not happened, it is a mere fabrication you made up to give credibility to a report you already admit was manipulated to be used against the Germans.
That is an unsubstantiated assertion, and furthermore I didn't "admit" that the report "was manipulated to be used against the Germans". What I wrote was that the Soviets omitted the Jewish ethnicity of the victims and the presence of Lithuanian collaborators acting under German orders, neither of which constitutes a manipulation for the document "to be used against the Germans" (if it so was). For the Germans were responsible for the killing regardless of the victims' ethnicity and the participation of Lithuanian collaborators, even assuming that the latter did most of the killing. After all it was the Germans who had given the orders.
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:52 pm
That's a mere supposition, and besides neither of the types of evidence you mention would imply that the mass killing in question was "fabricated", especially as there's other evidence pointing to a mass killing by the German occupiers and their auxiliaries in this area.
Even so, the figure is still in two Soviet CHGK reports which you admit were manipulated to be used against the Germans.
I "admitted" no such thing, see above.
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:52 pm
The Jews in question were citizens of the Soviet Union, more precisely of the Lithuanian SSR. And the Soviets don't seem to have been keen to erect monuments to Jewish victims of Nazi mass killings in the postwar period. Even later, monuments to murdered Jews or mentioning murdered Jews apparently had to be fought for by surviving Jewish communities. And the memorial may have been erected pursuant to an initiative of the surviving local Jewish community.
Surviving Jewish community? So the Jewish community (alleged put in a ghetto) of Semeliškių was not completely exterminated by the Germans?
I was not referring to the Jews of Semeliškių. By "local" I meant Lithuania as a whole, where the Germans and their auxiliaries almost but not totally wiped out the Jewish population (see the figures mentioned under
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holoc ... of_victims).
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:52 pm
Actually Soviet citizens murdering helpless and innocent people following German orders is the most inconvenient detail I can think of, from the point of view of someone bent on portraying Soviet citizens as heroic fighters against or innocent victims of the Nazis only. (...) First of all, just how "well know for manipulate and fabricate evidence to be used against the Germans" are the Soviets supposed to have been? Is there any case other than Katyn that you know about? Second, manipulation and fabrication of evidence can be safely ruled out where evidence other than Soviet reports confirms these reports. In this case we have the Jäger Report, DOK 239 and at least one corroborating post-Soviet witness as corroborating evidence. Regarding Jäger's activities in general or at other places there's also further evidence.
Neither the Jäger Report (no mention of "civilians" or "innocent citizens" as victims, no mention of the specific place of execution of the victims, different number of victims, different date of execution) or DOK 239 (no mention of the content of the "Jewish mass grave" in a forest in Semeliškių, no mention of a "cemetery") corroborates the Soviet CHGK reports about Semeliškių.
Actually both do. The number in the Jäger Report is only marginally lower than that stated in the Soviet report, so it can be considered a corroboration of the same (if the Soviets exhumed and counted the dead, this would mean that further bodies were added to the grave after the mass killing mentioned by Jäger). The place of execution is stated to be "Semiliski", which obviously means Semeliškių, the mass grave is in the Semeliškių area, and there's no evidence of another mass killing on such scale in that area. The date of execution stated in the Jäger Report is different, but the difference is not large (end of September 1941 vs. 6 October 1941) and probably due to the fact that the Soviet reports relied as concerns the date on the testimonies of witnesses, who got the date slightly wrong. As to DOK 239, the only reasonable interpretation of the term "Jewish mass graves", considering the document's inner logic, purpose and contents, is that it referred to the contents of the mass graves being dead Jews. Corroboration does not require a 100 % match between sources regarding all information. I don't think such 100 % match occurs very often.
Aryan Scholar wrote:Who is the "corroborating post-Soviet witness" for allegations of mass murder of Soviet Lithuanian civilians in Semeliškių? If this testimonial evidence is the hearsay from witness N°6 interviewed in Semeliškės on 19 September 2013 it was already addressed here.
I may have missed something, but I see no mention there of the witness who recalled that "All the Jews were shot within the first year." Even if that witness didn't see the killing herself, her knowledge thereof would still be relevant.
Aryan Scholar wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:52 pm
No it doesn't. A mass grave whose contents are 94 % Jewish civilians (962 out of 1,020) can still be rightfully called a "Jewish mass grave". And that's assuming that non-Jewish contents were added before the DMO's letter and the DMO knew about this, both of which was not necessarily the case.
So the other Jewish mass graves in DOK 239 could also have the corpses of gentiles (or carcasses?).
Theoretically yes, the designation "Jewish mass graves" being justified as long as dead Jews made up the overwhelming majority of dead bodies inside these graves. In practice no, as there is no evidence that these graves contained anything other than dead Jews. Besides, as I mentioned before, the Semeliškių may have contained Jewish corpses alone at the time when DOK 239 was written, further corpses being added only later. Or the DMO may have been simply unaware of such additional corpses.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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