Aryan Scholar wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:00 pm
Roberto wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:25 pm
Actually that's neither logical nor consistent with the document in question, for the reasons explained in the quote. Which I hereby expand considering the latest possibility you mentioned: The related evidence aside, it is hardly logical to assume that the DMO could have used the term "Jewish mass grave" for a grave made by Jews (or in land owned or leased by Jews, which would probably have been hard to find in Lithuania in mid-1942) containing something other than dead Jews. Using such a designation for a mass grave made by Jews (or in land owned or leased by Jews) but not containing dead Jews would have been misleading and induced the letter's recipient in error. Besides, if the contents of the mass graves in question were not dead Jews, why didn't the DMO specify what the contents of the mass graves were? That would be more interesting to the letter's recipient than information about who had made the mass graves, or on whose land they were located. Insofar as it could have been of interest to the recipient that those responsible for the graves were Jews (in order to hold them accountable for creating hazards to the public health and/or for non-Jewish human contents of the graves), a precision of what exactly the graves contained (if they had not contained dead Jews) would have been necessary information, which the DMO would have unduly withheld from the Regional Commissioner by not specifying the contents of the graves. (...) I didn't say that the document explicitly refers to "mass graves used to bury Jews". The argument is that "Jewish mass grave" would not have been a term used for a mass grave containing something other than dead Jews, for the reasons explained. And that, besides, the possibility of the mass graves in question containing something other than dead Jews is not borne out by other evidence, whereas all related evidence points to mass graves containing the bodies of Jews who had met a violent death.
[quote="Aryan Scholar"Please, substantiate the "argument is that "Jewish mass grave" would not have been a term used for a mass grave containing something other than dead Jews" with authoritative (or even testimonial) evidence related to DOK 239.
Logical arguments should be met with logical arguments, not with requests for "authoritative (or even testimonial.
There's another argument supporting my point besides those already mentioned. Let's look at the description of the "individual graves" in that document (emphases added):
Individual graves
1. Community of Kaischedoren
1) In southerly direction 2 km from Kaischedoren by the road Kaischedoren-Zesmaren, lying low in the forest, there is a grave with 8-10 corpses, which is covered by a layer of soil up to 1 meter high.
2. By the village Palomene 12 km north of Kaischedoren along the road Palomene-Zaslen there is a grave with 8-12 corpses.
2. Community of Zaslen
In northerly direction 1 km from Zaslen by the road Zaslen-Gegusien there is a grave with 15-20 corpses. The grave is covered by a layer of soil up to 1 m high.
3. Community of Rudischken
In northerly direction 1 km from Rudischken, 200 m from the road Traken-Rudischken in the forest there is a grave with 15-20 corpses. The grave is covered by a layer of soil up to 1 m high.
In all these cases information about the
contents of the graves, but no information about who made the graves or on whose land they are located.
So it's makes no sense, considering the document's internal logic, to assume that the term "Jewish mass graves" should have referred to anything other than the contents of these mass graves as being Jewish corpses. Applying one criterion (who had made them or on whose land they were located) in informing about the mass graves and another (what the contents of the grave were) in informing about the "individual graves" would have been inconsistent and illogical, besides confusing or misleading the reader.
Aryan Scholar wrote:Please, quote the parts of the related evidence of DOK 239 which explicitly "points to mass graves containing the bodies of Jews who had met a violent death".
Let's see it.
No problem.
1. The Jäger Report, mentions mass killings in the areas where Paskevicius mentioned the existence of mass graves:
Mass killings by the EK in Trakai on 30 September 1941 are mentioned on page 6 (
http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-hist ... tm.en.html). The District Medical Officer's report refers to this area as follows:
In easterly direction 2 km from Traken, 1 km from the village of Wornicken, 1 km from the forest, 1 km from the lake, in a sandy depression, there is a Jewish mass grave 80 meters long, 4 meters wide and 4 meters deep.
962 Jews were killed in Semiliski on 6 October 1941. The DMO's report refers to this area as follows:
In northerly direction 1 km from Semelischken by the forest, 50 m from the road, 2 km from the river Strawa on a sandy height, there is a Jewish mass grave about 30 m long. Drainage in the direction of Semelischken.
784 Jews were killed in Rumsiskis a. Ziezmariai on 29 August 1941. The DMO's report refers to this area as follows:
In northerly direction 3 km from Zesmaren, on land belonging to the village Trilischken, 1 km from the road Zaslen-Zesmaren, on a sandy height there is a Jewish mass grave 33 meters long.
1,911 Jews were shot on 26 August 1941 in Kaisiadorys. The DMO's report refers to this area as follows:
In northerly direction 5 km from Zesmaren, 2 km from the road Kaischedoren-Zesmaren, by the Bladukischer Forest there is a Jewish mass grave 30 meters long.
2. The Holocaust Atlas of Lithuania (
http://www.holocaustatlas.lt/EN/) provides the following information regarding the areas mentioned in the DMO's report:
Mass Murder of the Jews at Trakai
About massacre
“Until September, 1941, the Jews of Trakai lived in their homes and apartments. During the first days of September, police forced the town’s Jews into a ghetto which was located among summer homes beyond a lake. Jews were taken to the ghetto in canoes and small boats. In total about 400 Jews of Trakai were sent to the ghetto. Later, rural police sent Jews from Aukštadvaris, Onuškis, Rudiškės, Žydkaimis and Lentvaris to the ghetto. Police from Trakai, Aukštadvaris, Onuškis and Lentvaris guarded the ghetto.
“About two weeks after the ghetto was established, 20–30 members of the Special Squad arrived in Trakai. A German petty officer travelled with them. According to testimony from some members of the Special Squad, Martin Weiss also went to Trakai.
“On September 30, 1941, men, women, children and the elderly were lined up in columns and escorted by armed guards – local policemen commanded by Kazimieras Vasilevskis, policemen from Aukštadvaris, Onuškis and Lentvaris and local white armbanders and Special Squad murderers – to the Varnikai forest and shot after many humiliations. The mass murder began in the morning and ended in the afternoon.
“The Jäger Report says 1,446 Jews were shot in Trakai on September 30, 1941, including 366 men, 483 women and 597 children.”
Address: Trakai district, Trakai administrative district, Varnikai village
Victim number: 1446
Perpetrators
Special Squad;
M. Weiss;
Trakai police, led by K. Vasilevskis;
police and white armbanders from Aukštadvaris, Onuškis and Lentvaris;
How to find?
Driving on road no. 4751, turn right at the sign “Varnikų piliakalnis” in Varnikai village. Drive past the cemetery deeper into the forest to the commemorative stone. Proceed in 100 meters and you’ll see the monument.
Latitude: 54.649933 Longitude: 24.961733
Monument
A concrete obelisk was set up at the mass murder site after World War II. In 1984 and 1985 the gravesite was reconstructed and a wooden sculpture installed (sculpture by Marijanas Misevičius).
Unique site code: 11288
Status: Listed on register
Inscription: “The blood of 1,446 Jewish children, women and men was spilled here. Nazis and their local collaborators brutally murdered them on September 30, 1941. Let the memory of those who perished in innocence remain sacred” (in Yiddish and Lithuanian)
There's information about the massacre (about particulars of the killing and the Lithuanians who took part therein) that is not contained in the Jaeger Report and must thus be based on other evidence, namely eyewitness testimonies.
Mass Murder of the Jews from Semeliškės, Vievis and Žasliai
About massacre
“In the second half of September, 1941, the Jews of Semeliškės were moved to the ghetto. Jews from Vievis and some Jews from Žasliai were also imprisoned. The ghetto existed for about two weeks. During the first few days of October, a truck carrying about 20–30 members of the Special Squad arrived in Semeliškės from Vilnius. A German man came by car. He and head of the rural district of Semeliškės and the local police chief went to inspect the future killing site. The Jews of Semeliškės were killed on October 6, 1941. In the morning police from Semeliškės, Vievis and Žiežmariai who guarded the ghetto began to move Jews to the execution site. Another group of police guarded the pit. The executioners of the Special Squad forced small groups of Jews to the pit and shot them. The massacre lasted several hours. After returning to Semeliškės the shooters got drunk. The guards did not get any vodka.
“According to the Jäger report, 962 Jews were killed in Semeliškės: 213 men, 359 women and 390 children.”
Address: Semeliškės administrative district, Semeliškės forest, Elektrėnai district
Victim number: 962
Perpetrators
Special Squad;
head of the rural district of Semeliškės;
police chief of Semeliškės;
policemen from Semeliškės, Vievis and Žiežmariai
How to find?
When you come to Semeliškės from Vilnius (road no. 4709), turn onto the road on the right just before the post office. Continue to the forest. In the forest go about 50 meter s and you’ll see a commemorative marker on the left. Turn onto the forest track and go another 100 meters until you see the monument.
Latitude: 54.671500 Longitude: 24.673700
Monument
Unique site code: 11285
Status: Listed on register
Inscription: “At this place the Nazis and their helpers spilled the blood of 960 Jewish children, women and men on October 6, 1941” (in Yiddish)
Same thing here.
Mass Murder of the Jews of Kaišiadorys and Surrounding Areas
About massacre
“The planned mass shooting of Jews began at the end of August, 1941. Initially the Gaižiūnai military installation was chosen as the site for the mass murder, then the site was changed to the Strošiūnai forest. Two sites were to be used for the mass murder: one in the so-called Vasiliev ditch, the other next to what is now the Vilnius–Kaunas highway.
“Jews held at a Kaišiadorys storehouse were murdered first. They were divided into groups of 20–30 and led to their execution. They shot men first, then women and children. By evening the storehouse was empty and 500 people had been shot. Jews in the ghetto and another warehouse were killed later.
“According to the Jäger Report, Jews from the Kaišiadorys ghetto and temporary isolation site, 1,911 people, were shot on August 26, 1941. It is believed that not all Jews in the Kaišiadorys ghetto and temporary isolation site could have been shot in one day. Thus it is thought that only the last day of the mass murders is indicated in the report. The main organizers of the mass murder of the Jews were SS-Obersturmführer Joachim Hamann’s Rollkommando and locals with white armbands, local police and local volunteers.”
Address: Kaišiadorys district, Žiežmariai administrative district, Strošiūnai forest (9th quadrant)
Victim number: 1911
Perpetrators
Rollkommando Hamann/1st Battalion, 3rd Unit;
Kaišiadorys white armbanders, police and local volunteers;
How to find?
On the highway from Vilnius to Kaunas, turn right at the Žiežmariai exit (road no. 1808). Go 1.5 km, turn onto the forest road to the right.
Latitude: 54.823900 Longitude: 24.460700
Monument
A monument was placed at the mass murder site on October 16, 1964. In 1990 Žiežmariai traditional artist Vidmantas Kapačiūnas made three sculptures out of oak which were later burned.
Unique site code: 10892
Status: Protected by state
Inscription: “The Nazi henchmen and their local collaborators brutally tortured and buried half-alive 2,200 Jewish men from Žasliai, Žiežmariai and Kaišiadorys” (in Lithuanian and Yiddish)
Same thing here.
Mass Murder of the Jews (Women, Children and Elderly) of Kaišiadorys and Surrounding Area
About massacre
“On August 29, 1941, the surviving Jewish women, children and elderly – in total 784 people – of Kaišiadorys and surrounding areas (Žasliai, Žiežmariai, Rumšiskės) were shot. Lithuanian self-defense unit, Rollkomando Hamann, local police and white armbanders took part in the mass murder.
“On November 3, 1952, a Soviet special commission studying the mass murder state determined the ditch had been 55 meters long, 3 meters wide and 2 meters deep. The ditch was filled with corpses up to one meter.”
Address: Kaišiadorys district, Žiežmariai administrative district, Strošiūnai forest (28th quadrant)
Victim number: 784
Perpetrators
Rollkommando Hamann/1st Battalion 3rd Unit;
Kaišiadorys white armbanders and police;
How to find?
Turn right after 60 km when you go on the Highway A1 (E85) from Vilnius to Kaunas. There is a small gravel road. After 100 m turn left. Go straight 300 m until you reach the mass killing site.
Latitude: 54.803950 Longitude: 24.558563
Monument
A commemorative marker was placed at the mass murder site on October 16, 1964. The inscription was replaced with a new commemorative plaque in 1991.
Unique site code: 10891
Status: Protected by state
Inscription: “The Nazi henchman and their local collaborators brutally tortured and buried half-alive about 1,800 Jewish men and women from Žasliai, Žiežmariai and Kaišiadorys here on August 28, 1941” (in Yiddish and Lithuanian)
Same thing here. The quote also expressly mentions a postwar Soviet crime site investigation.
3. Mass execution of Jews from Semeliškės and nearby villages is mentioned under
http://yahadmap.org/#village/semeli-k-s ... huania.784. The link leads to a transcription/translation of or from a witness interview:
Bronislawa, born in 1933, recollects: “All the Jews were shot within the first year. Later, the Germans were asking around if there were any Jews left. People used to snitch on each other. In Žuvyčiai, the Germans found a person who hid Jews. They were all taken to the nearby forest. The Jews were shot and the person who provided shelter was acting crazy after that scene. They wanted to shoot him too, but they didn’t. There was one Lithuanian serving the Germans so he stood up for him. There was a notice saying that all the members of the family would be shot if someone was hiding Jews. But people still hid them and saved them. (Witness N°6, interviewed in Semeliškės, on September 19, 2013)
and to the translation or partial translation of a Soviet investigation report:
150-200 meters northwest of the Bovshi farmstead, in Semeliškės volost of Trakai Uyezd, there is a fenced cemetery that contains the remains of 1020 civilians brutally tortured and shot by German fascist monsters. At the end of September 1941, about 1000 men, women and children were brought by the Germans to the place mentioned above under heavy escort. Victims were undressed about 50 meters from the ditch, beaten with sticks, then blindfolded and shot. They were shot in groups of six people. Sick victims were thrown from the cart into the pit and shot inside the pit. In this way, from 10 AM until 6 PM, 1020 men and women were shot. Screams and moans could be heard from 2-3 kilometers away." [Local government commission report, compiled on August 27, 1944, RG-22.002M.7021-94/438]
All this evidence points to mass killings of Jews in all or some of the areas mentioned in DOK 239.
And as it points to mass killings in such areas, it also points to the existence of mass graves in such areas containing the corpses of those mass killings' victims, as it would make complete sense to bury the victims and no sense at all to leave their corpses lying around in the open. Besides, some of the aforementioned sources expressly mention graves:
In the morning police from Semeliškės, Vievis and Žiežmariai who guarded the ghetto began to move Jews to the execution site. Another group of police guarded the pit. The executioners of the Special Squad forced small groups of Jews to the pit and shot them.
Two sites were to be used for the mass murder: one in the so-called Vasiliev ditch, the other next to what is now the Vilnius–Kaunas highway.
“On November 3, 1952, a Soviet special commission studying the mass murder state determined the ditch had been 55 meters long, 3 meters wide and 2 meters deep. The ditch was filled with corpses up to one meter.”