Juden ... Spanischer Bürgerkrieg

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Alonso
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Re: Juden ... Spanischer Bürgerkrieg

Post by Alonso »

Scott and Huntinger: Thank you for your posts. Lots of things I didn't know there, I will need to read them again carefully to digest all that info.

blake121666 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:06 am
My conception of "imperialism" is different than yours because I am OLDER than you. NOT so much because you are young and do not use the same definitions of things. Or not in the way I'm used to.
I don't think that's the reason. I recently made the acquaintance of a lovely retired doctor with whom I've been discussing politics, and even though we haven't discussed that specific topic, I'm quite sure his concept of imperialism is roughly the same as mine. As I said, I normally try to avoid talking about ages, but if I had to venture a guess, I'd say he must be around 70, and I don't imagine you can be much older than him. My uneducated guess is that you and I have different concepts for the word imperialism because we have very different backgrounds, which might be related to the fact that I'm Spanish and you are (I think) American.

blake121666 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:06 am
Maybe that pimple on the world's ass (that oh so "shitty little country") in the Middle East should be seen as some sort of physical face of "International Jewry"?
I would say yes, but @been-there knows this topic much better and he might be able to shed some light on this. In other forums there's a feature that allows you to "summon" a forum member to a conversation by writing the @ symbol followed by his name. Not sure if that works here.

blake121666 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:16 pm
I'm assuming that you were born and raised in Spain.
Correct.

blake121666 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:06 am
Why did you ignore my pointed questions about the Spanish Civil War?
I didn't. I was baffled when I read this. Then I re-read your first post in this thread and saw it is much longer now than what I remember. Sometimes you read a post, and while you write an answer the other guy edits his post, leading to a situation where you are answering something that is no longer there or seeming to ignore something new that wasn't there hitherto. It has happened before, and I guess that's what has happened here.

It's not easy to answer your questions. My general answer for all of them is: Spaniards, like most people in any other country, believe whatever they are brainwashed into believing by mass media, official versions force fed in school, etc. In Spain, however, it is common to talk about the "two Spains", which is a term that describes the strong division between what Spaniards typically consider the right and the left. These are ideological differences, so there's plenty of people from both sides in every region of Spain. The "rightist" official versions are quite different than the "leftist" ones. This division between right and left can be confusing for people from some other countries. I think "right" and "left" mean something different in Spain than in those countries. I don't know much about American politics, but I'd say from a Spanish point of view both Republicans and Democrats are on the right.

On top of that, the official versions some regions, mainly Catalonia and Euskadi (aka the Basque country or the Basque provinces) are different than the official versions in the rest of Spain. Many parties in those regions want independence from Spain, and of course their official versions suit that goal, and typically (but not always) lean towards the leftist side.

I'm sceptical of any official versions, so I don't buy into any of them. In most cases the historical and political truth is hidden by very thick layers of propaganda, so the best I can do is acknowledging that I just don't know or understand the situation and therefore it doesn't make sense for me to have a view on those topics. Therefore, I'll just try to say how they are viewed by others.

blake121666 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:16 pm
How does someone in Spain view those international brigades? Did they have significance enough to even be mentioned?
Yes, everything related to the civil war is significant in Spain, and every minute detail is discussed ad nauseum (which doesn't necessarily mean that the truth is ever told).
Leftist view: They were heroes that gave their lives fighting for freedom.
Rightist view: They were enemies of Spain.

blake121666 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:16 pm
How do Spanish people view Franco?
Leftist view: He was the devil, only second in evilness to Hitler and perhaps Mussolini.
"Moderate" rightist view: He was not too bad, but it is better to have "democracy" (which we actually don't have, btw).
"Radical" rightist view: He was the saviour of Spain, we need another Franco who sends packing all the corrupt politicians of these days.

blake121666 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:16 pm
Is he thought to have been a "fascist"?
Leftist view: Yes, absolutely.
Rightist view: Not sure. Fascist is considered a very negative term. AFAIK the only time rightist people use the word fascist is when they criticize the leftists for abusing it.

blake121666 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:16 pm
Is he thought to have been politically "left" or "right" or "center"?
Far right. No arguments here, everybody agrees on this one.

blake121666 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:16 pm
Do the different regions in Spain have a largely common view of their history - such as is largely the case in the USA? Do they learn things in schools that are common throughout the country or regionally sectarian histories?
Sectarian histories. In Catalonia and Euskadi they teach what suits their nationalist goals. In most other regions they teach the opposite. Some regions, like Valencia and Galicia, are somewhere in the middle.

blake121666 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:16 pm
Would it be too much to ask you how old you are? I'm only interested in what your generation is - not any exact age or anything.
Fair enough, I don't think it makes much of a difference, but, for what it's worth, I'm 42. So maybe not so wet behind the ears.


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Re: Juden ... Spanischer Bürgerkrieg

Post by blake121666 »

Thanks for responding, Alonso. I have actually never spoken with anyone from Spain and am genuinely totally ignorant of what any actual Spanish person thinks - about anything really.

Sorry to have assumed you to have been younger than you are. 42 is quite old enough to have mature opinions. Yours are a little more "left" I suppose than mine. And I agree with you that such type things don't necessarily have to have anything to do with someone's age - which I now doubt is the case here.

If you were, for instance 12 years old (which I never thought btw), I'm sure you'd agree that there would be significant differences in how to interact with such a person. I mistakenly took you for a 17 or 18 year old. I'm actually quite glad to learn otherwise.
Last edited by blake121666 on Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Juden ... Spanischer Bürgerkrieg

Post by Huntinger »

Alonso wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:09 pm
Scott and Huntinger: Thank you for your posts. Lots of things I didn't know there, I will need to read them again carefully to digest all that info.
I think anything to do with the Spanish Civil war can be posted here; it is very interesting. I often wondered why the Reich got involved. The reasons are now obvious.
It is clear that many Juden are attracted to Communism or very much left wing politiks; Bolshevism is the most virulent for of this. Their mass executions in Spain in their own territories and genocides were not just an academic threat to pontificate over wine, but a genuine reality. National Socialists had to clean out the second largest communist city apart from Moscow; Berlin.
The leaders of the Bolsheviks were 75% juden; they influenced the Juden of Belarus to commit atrocities in the Baltic states, hence the reprisals later on. Their actions of hate and persecution resulted in the pogroms when things did not go their way. To be quite frank I am amazed not more Juden perished than what actually happened (1.3 million); the Germans didn't really need to do anything; der Juden made their beds and others may them lie in them, face down.

What this shows Alonso is that Juden inspired by far left Political aspirations get involved in world Politics; in Russia they over threw the Tsar. On October 1, 1949, Mao Zedong proclaimed the founding of the People's Republic of China. Chiang Kai-shek, 600,000 Nationalist troops, and about two million Nationalist-sympathizer refugees retreated to the island of Taiwan.

Now they were trying in Spain but lost due in part to Reich interdiction.

After WWII the yanks realized the error of their ways and probably realized they fought the wrong enemy; National Socialism was not the enemy but jüdisch inspired communism was. As you know in the McCarthy era Communism was a very dirty word. National Socialists were ground to the ground with the fake holocaust so the allies could show why they were not fighting the communists instead. Politiks is always dirty but jüdisch Politiks is off the scale of filth. It was der top Juden that went to Spain to rally Communism; in this war they showed briefly the scourge they hold on the world.


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Re: Juden ... Spanischer Bürgerkrieg

Post by Alonso »

Scott: I'm re-reading your post and I'm struggling to understand many of the ideas you discuss. Most prominently:
Scott wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:20 am
As far as "International Jewry," that is kind of a shorthand for what Hitler called "International Finance Capital" in Mein Kampf, which like Communism is very Jewish.
This identification of both communism and capitalism with jewishness is not new for me, but it always surprises and confuses me. Of course I understand that there are millions of Jews in the world and each of them has a mind of his own. However, my perception is that people tend to identify both capitalism and communism with the same Jewish group (once again, international jewry, or zionism, or etc.). Is that correct? Or do you identify capitalism with a certain Jewish group and communism with a completely different one? In the same vein, I also feel confused by your idea that plutocrats are communists and several other similar ideas.

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Re: Juden ... Spanischer Bürgerkrieg

Post by Alonso »

Huntinger wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:56 pm
many of the jüdisch volunteers simply wanted to fight the growing spectre of fascism
Come to think about it, it looks like the whole issue of the Jewish involvement in the Spanish civil war is as simple as this. Franco and the national side were allies of nazi Germany, and they were quite antisemitic themselves (I don't think that fascism itself was antisemitic, but nazism certainly was). So I guess that the question in my head that prompted the creation of this thread (what were the Jews doing in the Spanish civil war?) is quite easy to answer, actually. In any case, this thread is helping me to discover a lot of intersting stuff about this war.

Huntinger wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:44 pm
It was der top Juden that went to Spain to rally Communism
Which once again raises the question I also asked Scott: Are these top Juden the same who support capitalism? Is there a division between top Juden or are they supporting both communism and capitalism at the same time?

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Re: Juden ... Spanischer Bürgerkrieg

Post by Alonso »

blake121666 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:06 am
The conception of the state of Israel as somehow identically being "International Jewry" is one I haven't considered before either.
Israel and International Jewry are not synonims. After all, Israel is a country where millions live, including children, which are of course innocent of any international machinations; pacifists; pro Palestinian activists; etc. I think they're roughly the same, though, when it comes to matters like international policies.

blake121666 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:06 am
our Spaniard here is treating "International Jewry" as an empire where the colony (the state of Israel) is at the same time the hub
I'm not sure that Israel is the hub. There's plenty of International Jewry in the US and elsewhere. And it's definitely not the only colony. Three quarters of the world, my own country included, are also colonies.

blake121666 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:06 am
Germany wanted lebensraum in Europe. That would be "imperialist" in this conception, wouldn't it?
My dictionary of English says imperialism is "a system in which a rich and powerful country controls other countries, or a desire for control over other countries". That's a very basic definition, but that's it, basically. I would just add that the controlling entity doesn't necessarily have to be a country, it can also be a political group, International Jewry in this case; and the controlled entity doesn't necessarily have to be a country either, it can also be a territory, like in the case of Palestine.

About the lebensraum, my understanding is that what Germany wanted with lebensraum in Europe was to recover the territories the allies took from her with the Versailles treaty. If that's correct, that looks like nationalism, not imperialism. The 25 points of the early nazi party did demand colonies, though, and I don't know if that was a part of the lebensraum. If it was, that's certainly imperialism.

blake121666 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:06 am
Was the Spanish Civil War "imperialist" in this conception of Alonso? If not, why not?
Following the definition above, civil wars are not imperialistic because they're not about controlling foreign countries or territories. Of course one or both sides can have imperialistic agendas, and that was certainly the case for the nationalist side in Spain. But that's beyond the scope of the civil war itself.

blake121666 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:06 am
I'd like Alonso to tell me anything that a political entity does that he would NOT consider "imperialist" with this peculiar perception of the term.
Maybe I'm not getting your point here. Every political entity, even imperialistic ones, does lots of things that are not imperialistic. Israel, for instance, has social security policies, like any other country. There's nothing imperialistic in social security policies.

blake121666 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:06 am
If "the worldwide imposition of holocaustianity" is imperialist, is Greta Thunberg being imperialist with her political hysteria?
I'm afraid I know almost nothing about her. I've heard she is, and that seems to make sense, but I couldn't say for sure.

blake121666 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:06 am
If a man and a woman get married, is that imperialist?
Nope, no countries or territories involved here.

blake121666 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:38 pm
42 is quite old enough to have mature opinions.
Not sure I agree with that. In my experience 70 year olds are typically as brainwashed as 20 year olds. I'm sure I will still have plenty of immature opinions when I'm 80.

blake121666 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:38 pm
[Your opinions] are a little more "left" I suppose than mine.
That's funny. I'm a member of an NGO in which most people think I'm rightist. Truth is I'm not left or right, my political ideas don't fit into the left-right spectrum.

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Re: Juden ... Spanischer Bürgerkrieg

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Alonso wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:10 pm
Truth is I'm not left or right, my political ideas don't fit into the left-right spectrum.
Which can only mean the middle ground which you know what that is called ;)


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Re: Juden ... Spanischer Bürgerkrieg

Post by Scott »

Alonso wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:55 pm

Scott: I'm re-reading your post and I'm struggling to understand many of the ideas you discuss. Most prominently:

Scott wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:20 am
As far as "International Jewry," that is kind of a shorthand for what Hitler called "International Finance Capital" in Mein Kampf, which like Communism is very Jewish.


This identification of both communism and capitalism with jewishness is not new for me, but it always surprises and confuses me. Of course I understand that there are millions of Jews in the world and each of them has a mind of his own. However, my perception is that people tend to identify both capitalism and communism with the same Jewish group (once again, international jewry, or zionism, or etc.). Is that correct? Or do you identify capitalism with a certain Jewish group and communism with a completely different one? In the same vein, I also feel confused by your idea that plutocrats are communists and several other similar ideas.


Hi Alonso.

Well, Winston Churchill wrote in his famous 1920 article in London's Illustrated Sunday Herald that "Zionism vs. Bolshevism" was "a struggle for the soul of the Jewish people." Churchill suggests that Jews be good Jews as Zionists to wholesomely express their Jewishness, instead of bad Jews as nasty Communists.

Facsimiles are not hard to find Online, but David Irving has the 1920 Churchill article copied here:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/bookchapters/WSC/WSCwrote1920.html

Clearly, some see Zionism and Bolshevism as alternate "expressions" of Judaism, and contrary to Churchill, maybe not even exclusive alternate expressions of Judaism, but a kind of Gestalt.

Think of the Jewish faith as more than just a religion but an ethnic and a cultural identity as well. This is how one can be a Zionist Jew, a Communist Jew, and Capitalist Jew, and sometimes all at the same time.

Of course it is well-known, especially during Churchill's time, that the Bolsheviks in Russia were overwhelmingly ethnic Jews like Trotsky (aka Bronstein).

Jews were very prominent Communists in Soviet Russia until approximately the creation of Israel in 1948. Soviet Jews started to become pariahs with "divided loyalties," or at least they were accused of such.

One of the last of Stalin's policies was to start cracking down on "subversive Jews," such as in the so-called Doctor's Plot.

David Irving has a three-volume biography on Churchill and it is a pretty good read. One of the things that is known about Churchill, but usually glossed over by his hagiographers such as Sir Martin Gilbert, is that in the 1920s-30s when Winston was out of power and nearly broke, he was bailed out with mysterious personal financing from Jews.

Hitler often admired famous or prominent Englishmen, but near the time that Hitler becomes the German Chancellor in early 1933, Winston Churchill is a debt-ridden and disgraced has-been (1915 Gallipoli disaster) that a rising statesman like Hitler probably would not have had the time of day for.

However, not long after that, Churchill's personal financial problems are miraculously solved and he becomes the chief Germanophobe in Prime Minister Chamberlain's cabinet, who is incessantly calling for war with Germany, and reprising his earlier role as the First Lord of the Admiralty,

Churchill was a lifelong friend to Zionism, but he was an enemy of the Communists all of his life─except for a time after the Germans went to war with the Soviet Union. After the war, former Prime Minister Churchill is the one who made the famous Iron Curtain speech at Fulton, Missouri in 1946 where he warns about the postwar Soviet menace.

Here is a hostile article at Wikipedia on "Jewish Bolshevism" that might have some insights:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism

Regarding how someone can be a Communist and a Capitalist at the same time, as Hitler might have said : "this comes naturally to Jews."

Many historians have documented how prominent Wall Street bankers (or "Banksters," as I often call them) had strong Soviet sympathies. These are nearly always Jews. For example, Armand Hammer became the President of Occidental Petroleum in 1957. Hammer was a New York Jew whose Russian-born father had been a founding member of the Communist Party, USA. Hammer intended to study medicine, and he made his fortune selling medicines and business supplies to the Bolsheviks, also directing (or possibly purloining) international relief aid that was sent to Russia to treat their typhus epidemic after World War I.

Close connections between Wall Street financiers and Communists, especially During World War II when the Soviet Union was an ally, are well-documented. Not so well-documented is the Jewish membership involved in this. Harry Dexter White, for example, was a Boston-born Jew of Lithuanian ancestry who was the Assistant Secretary of the Treasury under Henry Morgenthau, Jr. During the 1944 Bretton Woods Conference, which determined postwar global financial relationships, Harry Dexter White had been a prominent U.S. financial establishment figure and was later proven to have been a Soviet spy.

This is just the tip of the Iceberg. Hope that helps. Remember that nothing in life is as simple or as monolithic as it may seem.

:-)

BELOW: Jewish spy Harry Dexter White, with economist John Maynard Keynes to the Right,
(Bretton Woods Conference, 1944).


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“Now we have forced Hitler to war so he no longer can peacefully annihilate one piece of the Treaty of Versailles after the other.”
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Re: Juden ... Spanischer Bürgerkrieg

Post by Alonso »

Huntinger wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:55 pm
Alonso wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:10 pm
Truth is I'm not left or right, my political ideas don't fit into the left-right spectrum.
Which can only mean the middle ground which you know what that is called ;)
Not really. The middle ground is a part of the left-right spectrum, or continuum if you prefer. I think that all the ideas in that continuum (right, left and middle) are based on the same flawed premise (and therefore equally wrong): That governments have to do things in a certain way. The idea of a person or entity having to do something is based on feelings, on emotions, which work well for small groups of people, but not for groups made of millions. Anyway, that's a very complex topic and deserves a thread (or several) of its own.

Btw, I don't know what the middle ground is called. In Spain it's just called center, but I'm sure that's not what you mean.

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Re: Juden ... Spanischer Bürgerkrieg

Post by Scott »

Since this thread is about the Spanish Civil War and involves aspects of Jews and the semantics of the term "Imperialism," it might be useful for this thread to note the context where Lenin used the idea:


Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism (1917), by Vladimir Lenin, describes the function of financial capital in generating profits from imperialist colonialism as the final stage of capitalist development to ensure greater profits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism[...]


Although I do agree with some of his takes here, there is much of Lenin's analysis that I don't.

Interestingly, in this Wiki article it is mentioned that Lenin's Imperialism was influenced by the English economist J.A. Hobson, whom I have not read, but whose works apparently had some early anti-Semitic overtones.


Imperialism: A Study (1902), by John A. Hobson, is a politico–economic discourse about the negative financial, economic, and moral aspects of imperialism as a nationalistic business enterprise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism_(Hobson)

[...]

Hobson states that what he called the "taproot of imperialism" is not in nationalist pride, but in capitalist oligarchy; and, as a form of economic organization, imperialism is unnecessary and immoral, the result of the mis-distribution of wealth in a capitalist society. [Emphasis mine.]

[...]

Hobson's writings on the Second Boer War, particularly in The War in South Africa: Its Causes and Effects, attribute the war partly to Jewish influence, including references to Rothschild bankers.


So, bringing this context back around to the Spanish Civil War, we have a global interplay of Communists, Capitalists, Jews, Fascists, and Nazis.

I am not an expert on the Spanish Civil War, but when I have time I'll try to put together a brief outline of my understanding, and hopefully that will help─or at least add─to the discussion.

I think it is also notable that the Left-Liberal writer Eric Blair (better known by his pen name as George Orwell) lost his admiration for Stalinist Communism while observing the Spanish Civil War as a journalist. Orwell was one of the first Liberals to expose the hypocrisy of what Prof. Harry Elmer Barnes later called "Totalitarian Liberals."

It is difficult to overemphasize that this was at a time when most Liberal intellectuals were still singing the praises for the Russian Revolution, and the Spanish Civil War was an extreme cause célèbre issue in the West, when many affluent young Liberals, especially of a certain non-Christian persuasion, yearned to make a pilgrimage to Spain to "Fight Fascism."

Final thought... I don't like the idea of civil wars in general, but I do like the German-derived phrasing here: Bürger-Krieg. :mrgreen:

In the SouthWest United States where I am, "Spanish Burger Krieg" sounds like an indulgent multi-ethnic restaurant promotional.

"Try a delicious Blitz of spice!"

:)

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“Now we have forced Hitler to war so he no longer can peacefully annihilate one piece of the Treaty of Versailles after the other.”
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historian – England

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