John Wear tackles Sonderkommando testimonies

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Nessie
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Re: John Wear tackles Sonderkommando testimonies

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:40 pm
Nessie equates one witness saying the car in the accident was green and another saying it was blue to one witness claiming it was a car wreck and another saying it was a train wreck. Hey, a "mistake" is just a mistake.
No, that is an exaggeration. You dodge that EVERY witness who worked at the Kremas say Zyklon B was dropped into the chambers.
Here is an article by Fritz Berg that shows a photo of the kreislauf apparatus used with Zyklon B in a delousing chamber at Dachau. Note the heating and exhaust ducts along with the wire basket for recovering the expended Z-B pellets. The entire procedure took over an hour with purpose built equipment.
Every report has delousing taking longer than gassing people.
Bendel says that the Z-B was just thrown through windows or holes in the roof
Depending on which Krema.
and the procedure only took 3-5 minutes to kill all the victims.
I linked you to a study showing how witnesses are poor at estimating time.
Nessie claims that normal room ventilation was actually for venting the still outgassing Z-B.
You are getting your facts wrong, again. A ventilation system was constructed for the chamber, it was not normal room ventilation.
Nessie claims that gas masks were utilized while other alleged eyewitnesses said that no gas masks were used. Indeed, one claimed to have enjoyed a light snack while sitting on a pile of bodies. Nessie and his witness are lying through their teeth. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
A memo warning was given to use gas masks, it appears some did use them and some did not, which may be down to where they worked, did they go in first or were they moving bodies to the ovens?

You have yet again dodged explaining your methodology and why it is unique and not used by any historian. You think that the way a witness describes what happened determines exactly what happened. Witnesses are unreliable for the details, they under-estimate, over-estimate, forget, make mistakes. You pretend that is not the case, but you show no evidence to back that up.

You say I am in la-la land, but I link you to studies of witnesses to show their likely un-reliabilities. You have nothing to show how you deal with witnesses is reliable. That is why you dodge debating me about how witnesses behave.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: John Wear tackles Sonderkommando testimonies

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:40 pm
...Nessie claims that normal room ventilation was actually for venting the still outgassing Z-B...
According to you, a mistake is the same as lying. I have made no such claim and linked to documentary evidence of a ventilation system and testimony by the engineers who built it. According to your own standard, you have made a mistake and you a liar.

So, do you now accept that people make mistakes and that does not necessarily make them a liar?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Turnagain
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Re: John Wear tackles Sonderkommando testimonies

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
Every report has delousing taking longer than gassing people.
Another case of car wreck vs. train wreck. In Arizona it took one person 18 minutes to die in a purpose built gas chamber with high concentrations of cyanide. Bendel said that everyone was dead within five (5) minutes after some Zyklon B was thrown in the room. Suuuuure, it takes over 12 times as long to kill a louse as it does a human. With the purpose built apparatus it took over an hour to exhaust the cyanide from the pellets but it only took five (5) minutes at Birkenau. On and on, Bendel piles garbage on top of bullshit and Nessie swears by it.
I linked you to a study showing how witnesses are poor at estimating time.
Nessie compares a one time event to Bendel spending several months watching the alleged gassing. More car wreck vs. train wreck. At any rate, Nessie claims it was just a "misunderestimation" again (and again and again...).
A memo warning was given to use gas masks, it appears some did use them and some did not, which may be down to where they worked, did they go in first or were they moving bodies to the ovens?
Bullshit!
You have yet again dodged explaining your methodology and why it is unique and not used by any historian.
More bullshit.
You say I am in la-la land...
Yep, that's your precise location.
I have made no such claim and linked to documentary evidence of a ventilation system and testimony by the engineers who built it.
You were shown photos and been given descriptions of precisely how German engineers handled the problems of dealing with Zyklon B and the resulting cyanide gas. They didn't just build a room ventilation system. You're lying through your teeth.
So, do you now accept that people make mistakes and that does not necessarily make them a liar?
People make mistakes but they don't mistakenly call a car wreck a train wreck or a plane crash. People don't mistake a backyard toy rocket with a Saturn moon launch.

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Nessie
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Re: John Wear tackles Sonderkommando testimonies

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:28 pm
Nessie wrote:
Every report has delousing taking longer than gassing people.
Another case of car wreck vs. train wreck. In Arizona it took one person 18 minutes to die in a purpose built gas chamber with high concentrations of cyanide. Bendel said that everyone was dead within five (5) minutes after some Zyklon B was thrown in the room. Suuuuure, it takes over 12 times as long to kill a louse as it does a human. With the purpose built apparatus it took over an hour to exhaust the cyanide from the pellets but it only took five (5) minutes at Birkenau. On and on, Bendel piles garbage on top of bullshit and Nessie swears by it.
The Arizona gassing was properly timed. The gassings in the Kremas were estimated by people and you ignore I have linked to evidence that people are poor at estimating time. You just shout garbage without providing any evidence.
I linked you to a study showing how witnesses are poor at estimating time.
Nessie compares a one time event to Bendel spending several months watching the alleged gassing. More car wreck vs. train wreck. At any rate, Nessie claims it was just a "misunderestimation" again (and again and again...).
It is car wreck vs car wreck, when all the witnesses agree that gassings took place in chambers, but vary as to how long it took. Duscrepancies can be explained by some refer to how long it took just to kill those inside, others refer to the time it took to get everyone inside and to when it was safe to open the doors.
A memo warning was given to use gas masks, it appears some did use them and some did not, which may be down to where they worked, did they go in first or were they moving bodies to the ovens?
Bullshit!
I link to evidence, you cry bullshit. You really are pathetic.
You have yet again dodged explaining your methodology and why it is unique and not used by any historian.
More bullshit.
Show me your explanation.
You say I am in la-la land...
Yep, that's your precise location.
I have made no such claim and linked to documentary evidence of a ventilation system and testimony by the engineers who built it.
You were shown photos and been given descriptions of precisely how German engineers handled the problems of dealing with Zyklon B and the resulting cyanide gas. They didn't just build a room ventilation system. You're lying through your teeth.
Yes they did, I have linked to the evidence. That you pretend I have not is pathetic.
So, do you now accept that people make mistakes and that does not necessarily make them a liar?
People make mistakes but they don't mistakenly call a car wreck a train wreck or a plane crash. People don't mistake a backyard toy rocket with a Saturn moon launch.
You are exaggerating the differences in the witness testimony. EVERY single one of them, who worked at the Kremas, agrees gassing in chambers. All you can find is some variations in how many minutes it took and how big the Leichenkeller was.

You have still to show why your methodology is reliable and why no academic discipline uses it. That is because you cannot.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: John Wear tackles Sonderkommando testimonies

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"On August 29, 1941, Johann Paul Kremer, a medical doctor who had joined the Wehrmacht (German) army on May 20, 1941, was ordered to Concentration Camp Auschwitz to replace another surgeon. Kremer kept a diary of many of his daily activities throughout the war."

https://www-tc.pbs.org/auschwitz/learni ... ing2.3.pdf

"September 2, 1942 Was present for the first time at a special actionv at 3 a.m. By comparison Dante’s inferno seems almost a comedy.viAuschwitz is justly called an extermination camp!"

His diary entries were confirmed when he was interviewed about what happened;

"In the official record of the interrogation of August 18, 1947, in Cracow, Kremer stated as follows: “By September 2, 1942, at 3 a.m. I had already been assigned to take part in the action of gassing people. These mass murders took place in small cottages situated outside the Birkenau camp in a wood. The cottages were called ‘bukers’ [Bunker] in the SS-men’s slang."

"“An SS physician was always present at such gassings. The physicians took turns in being on duty. Among the physicians of the period when I was in the camp I remember the following names: Thilo, Kitt, Uhlenbrock, Wirths, Meyer, Entress. The special actions mentioned in my diary were only part of the actions, which were taking place during the time covered by my diary. There were, of course, many more, only other physicians participated in these.”

Further diary entries here;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... diary.html

"9 September 1942
This morning I received most welcome news from my solicitor Professor Hallermann in Munster, that I was divorced from my wife from the 1st of the month. Later was present as physician at the flogging of 8 camp inmates and at one execution by shooting with a small calibre gun. Got soap flakes and 2 cakes of soap. At noon a civilian jumped out of the blue at my bicycle, just like an assassin, ran alongside and begged me to tell him whether I was State Councillor Heuner from Wroclaw (Breslau). He fought in World War 1 side by side with that gentleman. How many doubles have I then, running about in this world. In the evening present at a special action (4th time).Notes: 1,000 Jewish men, women and children arrive from Drancy in the twenty-ninth RSHA transport from France. 689 people are killed in the gas chambers."

That is 689 split between the four gas chambers. The 1000 refers to the size of transport that arrived at the camp.

"10 September 1942
In the morning was present at a special action (5th time). Notes: 1,000 Jews arrive from the Malines Camp with the eight RSHA transport from Belgium. After a first selection was carried out in Cosel, 715 people were taken to the gas chambers."

"7 October 1942
Present at the 9th special action (new arrivals and women “Moslems”) Wirths finally back. Am acting for Entress in men’s camp (introducing doctors etc). Notes: 2012 Jewish men, women and children arrive from Westerbork in an RSHA transport from Holland. 1414 deportees as well as female prisoners selected from the camp are killed in the gas chambers."

"18 October 1942
In wet and cold weather was on this Sunday morning present at the 11th special action (from Holland). Terrible scenes when 3 women begged to have their bare lives spared. Notes: 1710 Jewish men, women and children arrive from Holland. 1594 deportees are gassed immediately.
Kremer under investigation in Krakow on the 18 July 1947 added to this entry: “Three women from Holland didn’t want to go to the gas chamber and begged for their lives. They were young and healthy women and yet their pleas weren’t heard, instead the SS men participating in the operation shot them right on the spot."

"8 November 1942
Took part this night in 2 special actions in rainy and murky weather (12th and 13th). In the morning I welcomed Hauptscharfuhrer Kitt, a pupil of mine from Essen to the hospital. Another special action in the afternoon, the 14th in which I had participated so far. In the evening a cosy gathering to which I was invited by Hstuf Wirths, now present in camp. We had Bulgarian red wine, plum brandy from Croatia.
Notes: 1,000 Jews arrive on a RSHA transport from the ghettos in the so-called Administrative District of Zichenau. All of this transport were gassed immediately. 1,000 Jewish men, women and children arrive from Drancy on the forty-second RSHA transport from France. 773 deportees are killed in the gas chambers. 1,000 Jewish men, women and children arrive on a RSHA transport from the ghetto in the Bialystok District.

Kremer kept a diary during his time at the camp and then confirmed what he saw after the war. He was sent to prison for 10 years after his trial and died aged 81 in 1965.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Turnagain
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Re: John Wear tackles Sonderkommando testimonies

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie maunders on with his endless bullshit. For example:
Yes they did, I have linked to the evidence.
Nessie claims that the Germans purpose built a ventilation system to exhaust cyanide outgassed from the Z-B. Of course a morgue wouldn't need any ventilation system. Well, according to Nessie.
You have still to show why your methodology is reliable and why no academic discipline uses it.
That's curious since I used my methodology as a guest lecturer at a California State University and it was considered perfectly reliable and acceptable.


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Nessie
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Re: John Wear tackles Sonderkommando testimonies

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:08 pm
Nessie maunders on with his endless bullshit. For example:
Yes they did, I have linked to the evidence.
Nessie claims that the Germans purpose built a ventilation system to exhaust cyanide outgassed from the Z-B. Of course a morgue wouldn't need any ventilation system. Well, according to Nessie.
Documents and witnesses evidence there was a ventilation system. You said "Nessie claims that normal room ventilation was actually for venting the still outgassing Z-B." which is not true. According to your own standard, you made a mistake and that makes you a liar.
You have still to show why your methodology is reliable and why no academic discipline uses it.
That's curious since I used my methodology as a guest lecturer at a California State University and it was considered perfectly reliable and acceptable.
You certainly did not prove a historical event took place by calling some of the witnesses liars, ignoring the rest of the evidence and then demanding belief in a version of events that you cannot evidence took place.

What academic discipline accepts that by disproving something, that then proves something else, that is not evidenced to have happened, took place?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: John Wear tackles Sonderkommando testimonies

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Turnagain wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:14 pm
Re: Johann Paul Kremer. See: https://forum.codoh.com/search.php?keyw ... d%5B0%5D=2
Kremer and Bendel corroborate each other. Both say multiple gas chambers, different methods of introducing the gas depending on which gas chamber was used. Kremer had access to records and knows precise numbers gassed, so he was not estimating like Bendel did, which explains that difference.

To use you crash analogy, both agree it was a car crash, they vary in some details. That is to be expected. You dodge dealing with how witnesses behave with a link to another forum. That is because you cannot find any evidence witnesses behave the way you claim and that lies = mistakes = lies and everyone who tells the truth is 100% accurate.

Remember, EVERY witness, no matter what their background, agrees there were gas chambers at A-B. There is no one who worked at a Krema who said something else happened.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: John Wear tackles Sonderkommando testimonies

Post by Nessie »

Nessie wrote:You have yet again dodged explaining your methodology and why it is unique and not used by any historian.
Turnagain wrote:More bullshit.
Show me your explanation.
I used my methodology as a guest lecturer at a California State University
Utter drivel.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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