Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

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Nessie
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Nessie »

been-there wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:05 pm
Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:30 pm
Whether Nessie is just lying or is really that stupid is irrelevant. Given Nessie's innumeracy it's hard to tell.

...The NIH and Very Well Health both declare that cherry red skin discoloration is "associated with" or a "telltale indicator" of extremely high levels of COHb.
Nessie declares that to be beyond his comprehension.
That or he simply could be lying.
The question of A). just lying or B). really stupid may well be“irrelevant”, but only as long as we realise that it is either one or the other. And nothing else!!

Because then it becomes apparent that it IS NOT POSSIBLE to conduct a meaningful, worthwhile discussion with anyone who is either and possibly both.
And certainly a waste of time to conduct one about the exact same points, for over three years. ;)
The reason why this drags on, is because the likes of Werd and now Turnagain like to dwell on and repeatedly discuss issues from ages ago that were resolved ages ago. The 2-3% symptomatic issue is one such issue.

I have been trying for a long time now, to get a denier to produce primary medical studies such as;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5848400/

A study of 40 fatal cases of CO poisoning. Of the 40, 39 "died with a source of CO nearby and the person was inside a room or some closed space without ventilation" which makes that a very close equivalent to the gas chambers.
It lists the common symptoms for fatal gassings "In extreme cases, exposure leads to unconsciousness, coma, convulsions, and even death." There is no mention of cherry red or any skin discolouration. Not one person out the 39 who died in an enclosed space had the cherry red symptom.

https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp201-c3.pdf

"Typically, fatal exposures to carbon monoxide produce coma, convulsions, and cardiorespiratory arrest (Raub et al. 2000; Wolf et al. 2008).

Symptoms preceding death can include headache, dizziness, weakness, nausea, vomiting, mental confusion, visual disturbances, and loss of consciousness (Choi 2001; Raub et al. 2000).

Clinical signs of life-threatening toxicity can include cardiac arrhythmia and myocardial ischemia, hypotension, pulmonary edema, and seizures (Kao and Nañagas 2006)."

which list the symptoms for fatal gassings. The reason why no denier will do that is because those studies do not list cherry red as a symptom. The obvious reason for that is the symptom is rarely seen in fatal gassings. To avoid admitting that, deniers just repeat themselves.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Turnagain
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
An association just means there is some sort of connection.
Bullshit!
The same source lists symptoms on Table 1. There is no mention of cherry red. That tells us the association is rare.
Table 1 makes no mention whatsoever of the cadavers appearance. That tells you jack squat about the color of the cadavers.
The sources I have used may mention chronic and mild symptoms...
You carefully cherry pick only studies that make no mention of the cadavers appearance.
The issue is of those fatalities, is cherry red skin common or rare?
The issue is do victims with COHb levels >60% commonly present cherry red skin discoloration. Yes, they do.
I present primary sourced medical evidence it is rare and you just waffle on about an issue that has already been dealt with.
You have presented NO sources that deal with the appearance of the cadavers.
Everyone would have been exposed to >60%.
Nobody is "exposed" to >60% COHb you thick dweeb. COHb is developed by the victim.
No, I am happy to discuss fatal cases, you are the one avoiding that issue. You want to keep on bringing the discussion back to how rare fatal cases are.
In accidental CO poisoning, fatal cases are a rarity. At Treblinka it was LC100. EVERY case was a fatality.
Stop weasel dodging and show me a primary medical source that clearly states when CO is >60%, most people go obviously cherry red.
I just did. Quit your whining about your cherry picked sources.

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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
The reason why no denier will do that is because those studies do not list cherry red as a symptom. The obvious reason for that is the symptom is rarely seen in fatal gassings.
Nessie picks only studies that don't mention the appearance of the cadaver. Other studies including one by the NIH discuss the appearance of cherry red skin discoloration in cases with >60% COHb. Nessie then whines that they didn't mean what they said about red/pink discoloration.

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Nessie
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:57 pm
Nessie wrote:
An association just means there is some sort of connection.
Bullshit!
The same source lists symptoms on Table 1. There is no mention of cherry red. That tells us the association is rare.
Table 1 makes no mention whatsoever of the cadavers appearance. That tells you jack squat about the color of the cadavers.
The sources I have used may mention chronic and mild symptoms...
You carefully cherry pick only studies that make no mention of the cadavers appearance.
Er, we are discussing the lack of cherry red as a symptom prior to death in fatal cases. You are weasel dodging by referring to post death signs of CO poisoning.

You are weasel dodging because you have no evidence to back up your claims and show cherry red commonly appears prior to death in fatal gassings.
The issue is of those fatalities, is cherry red skin common or rare?
The issue is do victims with COHb levels >60% commonly present cherry red skin discoloration. Yes, they do.[/quote]

Where is your primary medical evidence for that claim?

Why do so many primary medical source not list cherry red as a symptom for COHb levels >60%?
I present primary sourced medical evidence it is rare and you just waffle on about an issue that has already been dealt with.
You have presented NO sources that deal with the appearance of the cadavers.
I have presented a lot of evidence that after death, as lividity forms, then the cherry red appears in the skin as the blood pools.

The medical evidence proves it is rare as a symptom. The forensic evidence proves it is common after death with lividity. Hence, when most people die, their skin is not cherry red. But hours after death, it has gone cherry red where lividity has pooled.
Everyone would have been exposed to >60%.
Nobody is "exposed" to >60% COHb you thick dweeb. COHb is developed by the victim.
No, I am happy to discuss fatal cases, you are the one avoiding that issue. You want to keep on bringing the discussion back to how rare fatal cases are.
In accidental CO poisoning, fatal cases are a rarity. At Treblinka it was LC100. EVERY case was a fatality.
Accidental fatal cases have the same symptoms as deliberate fatal cases :roll:
Stop weasel dodging and show me a primary medical source that clearly states when CO is >60%, most people go obviously cherry red.
I just did. Quit your whining about your cherry picked sources.
You have no such source. None of the sources you have produced state that cherry red skin is a common and obvious symptom in fatal gassings. My "cherry picked" sources are picked because they are primary medical sources about fatal cases. Here is another;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK220007/

A meta study of acute fatalities, no mention of cherry red skin prior to death and an instance of red skin reported at a post mortem. Table 2-3 lists the symptoms for severe gassings in healthy adults;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK2 ... objectonly

For 60-70% the symptoms are "Unconsciousness, intermittent convulsion, respiratory failure, death if exposure is long continued ". For 80% it is "Rapidly fatal"

No mention of cherry red skin. Clearly, it is not common and obvious prior to death in fatal cases.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:07 pm
Nessie wrote:
The reason why no denier will do that is because those studies do not list cherry red as a symptom. The obvious reason for that is the symptom is rarely seen in fatal gassings.
Nessie picks only studies that don't mention the appearance of the cadaver.
I have been evidencing that prior to death, cherry red is rare. That is important because that means when the gas chambers were opened, few bodies showed cherry red. Hence, few witnesses mentioned it.
Other studies including one by the NIH discuss the appearance of cherry red skin discoloration in cases with >60% COHb. Nessie then whines that they didn't mean what they said about red/pink discoloration.
Show me where the NIH states that cherry red skin is common and obvious in fatal gassings.
Explain to me why they list symptoms for fatal gassings that do not include cherry red skin.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK2 ... objectonly

Yet another list and no mention of cherry red skin.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Huntinger »

Hence, few witnesses mentioned it.
Whether or not 3% is rare is irrelevant. There are 60 pink bodies in a mass of two thousand, highly noticeable and yet at best there is only a single mention of such, the rest are all shades of morbid hues from purple to green.

This is enough to conclude that the people did not die from CO or that that witnesses were not there and lying.


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Turnagain
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
Er, we are discussing the lack of cherry red as a symptom prior to death in fatal cases.
We are discussing the cherry red skin discoloration that is generally at COHb levels above 60%. Some, a very few, survive after presenting the characteristic cherry red discoloration of extremely high levels of COHb.
You are weasel dodging because you have no evidence to back up your claims and show cherry red commonly appears prior to death in fatal gassings.
COHb levels >60% aren't required for fatalities from CO poisoning.
Where is your primary medical evidence for that claim?
I have posted those several times. Quit your effing whining.
I have presented a lot of evidence that after death, as lividity forms, then the cherry red appears in the skin as the blood pools.
That happens to most cadavers. The cherry red of CO poisoning presents ante mortem.
The medical evidence proves it is rare as a symptom.
It is rare due to the fact that not that many reach >60% COHb levels in accidental CO poisoning. No studies detail the LC100 of CO at the AR camps.
Accidental fatal cases have the same symptoms as deliberate fatal cases.
Accidental fatal cases with a COHb >60% will usually display cherry red skin discoloration.
For 60-70% the symptoms are "Unconsciousness, intermittent convulsion, respiratory failure, death if exposure is long continued ". For 80% it is "Rapidly fatal"

No mention of cherry red skin. Clearly, it is not common and obvious prior to death in fatal cases.
Nessie posts more studies with no headings for the appearance of the cadavers. He then claims that the NIH study and the Health study that do discuss the cherry red skin discoloration of CO poisoning didn't really mean what they said. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.

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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
I have been evidencing that prior to death, cherry red is rare.
You have evidenced nothing. You claim that studies that discuss the cherry red skin discoloration don't mean what they say. You then cherry pick studies that don't discuss the appearance of the cadavers. You lie like a rug trying to defend the notion that there were no red/pink cadavers at the AR camps. Cherry red discoloration is common with COHb levels >60%. Get over it.

I've given the site address of the NIH study several times along with the Health site. All you've done is whine that you want me to post them again...and again...and again. Then you claim that they really didn't mean what they said although it's all written in plain English. Come up with something different or give it a rest.

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Nessie
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:30 pm
Nessie wrote:
I have been evidencing that prior to death, cherry red is rare.
You have evidenced nothing. You claim that studies that discuss the cherry red skin discoloration don't mean what they say. You then cherry pick studies that don't discuss the appearance of the cadavers.
The medical evidence tells us what the cadaver would look like at the time of death. You claim the bodies would be commonly and obviously cherry red, minutes after death when the chambers were opened. I point to numerous medical sites that do not list cherry red as a symptom, which means the bodies are not red at the time of death.

The relevance of cadavers comes later, hours later when cherry red lividity forms, but by then the cadavers had been buried. Hence few witnesses commented.
You lie like a rug trying to defend the notion that there were no red/pink cadavers at the AR camps.
You lie that that is my claim.
Cherry red discoloration is common with COHb levels >60%. Get over it.
Stop weasel dodging and show me a medical source that lists cherry red skin as a symptom of COHb of >60%.

ALL of the sources I can find do not list it as a symptom. Stop weasel dodging explaining why none list something you claim is common and obvious.
I've given the site address of the NIH study several times along with the Health site. All you've done is whine that you want me to post them again...and again...and again. Then you claim that they really didn't mean what they said although it's all written in plain English. Come up with something different or give it a rest.
Where is it written in plain English, by the NIH and Health site, that cherry red skin is common and obvious in fatal gassings? Stop weasel dodging and quote where those sites state it is common and obvious.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:09 pm
...
Accidental fatal cases with a COHb >60% will usually display cherry red skin discoloration.
...
Link to and quote your source.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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