Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

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Turnagain
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie tries to cover up the fact that he posted numbers from the CDC. Your lie didn't fly, Nessie.

Then Nessie tries to cover up that he said that while cherry red skin discoloration can and does appear in living patients it only appears as livor mortis e.g. it only appears when the patient is dead.
Where is your evidence that in fatal gassings, the skin commonly and obviously goes cherry red before the appearance of lividity?
That's been posted and you agreed that cherry red skin discoloration can and does occur in patients that have recovered from CO poisoning. Again you now claim that cherry red skin discoloration is only the result of livor mortis. Which is it?

Huntinger posted that 2-3% of all symptomatic victims of CO poisoning displayed the characteristic cherry red appearance. Livor mortis is a function of gravity so almost all fatal cases would display that characteristic.

None of that explains why the alleged eyewitnesses claims that the cadavers were yellow, blue, black or gray. Why is that, Nessie?

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Nessie
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:34 am
Nessie tries to cover up the fact that he posted numbers from the CDC. Your lie didn't fly, Nessie.
I was remembering that I had got figures for deaths in the USA and UK, I had not remembered the US figure was from the CDC. You have forgotten that you just posted links to medical evidence that does not list cherry red as a symptom, whilst oddly arguing it is a common and obvious symptom.
Then Nessie tries to cover up that he said that while cherry red skin discoloration can and does appear in living patients it only appears as livor mortis e.g. it only appears when the patient is dead.
I did not say that, you are lying.

What I said was that it occasionally appears as a symptom before death and it always appears with lividity after death.

It is not my fault you do not understand that.
Where is your evidence that in fatal gassings, the skin commonly and obviously goes cherry red before the appearance of lividity?
That's been posted and you agreed that cherry red skin discoloration can and does occur in patients that have recovered from CO poisoning. Again you now claim that cherry red skin discoloration is only the result of livor mortis. Which is it?
It is not my fault you do not understand the difference between a common and obvious symptom and a rarely seen and not obvious symptom. The cherry red skin symptom is the latter, not the former.

The rare symptom before death means that when people die, very few show cherry red skin. Lividity now applies, since the heart has stopped, the victim is dead and blood now pools. Lividity is common, it happens all the time.

Sorry, but your inability to understand that means you have not got a clue about this debate, you should just step back.
Huntinger posted that 2-3% of all symptomatic victims of CO poisoning displayed the characteristic cherry red appearance. Livor mortis is a function of gravity so almost all fatal cases would display that characteristic.
The 2-3% applies to symptoms before death. The lividity or if you want, call it livor mortis, it is the same pooling of blood after the heart stops, is a function after death. Think of it as maybe about 2-3% of people show the symptom before death and then all show livor mortis after death.

May, just maybe, you will finally get to grips with the argument. But, I doubt it.
None of that explains why the alleged eyewitnesses claims that the cadavers were yellow, blue, black or gray. Why is that, Nessie?
Because witnesses often say things, based on their flawed recollections and memory, that do not make sense to others who were not there. That is just how many witnesses are. You will have never had to interview witnesses and gather evidence, so you do not know about that. You could read up about witness memory and its flaws, but you are too lazy and you would not understand.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Turnagain
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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie morphs his story. Now he admits that the cherry red of CO poisoning can occur but cadavers generally turn red/purple with livor motis. Well, that's true. Except for bodies consumed by fire, mangled into small pieces, etc. ALL bodies develop livor mortis. So tell me, Nessie, would cadavers who died with a COHb level >60% be more likely to develop the cherry red skin discoloration than victims who died at a COHb level of 50%? Is there any difference between the red/pink discoloration from CO and the red/purple of livor mortis?
Because witnesses often say things, based on their flawed recollections and memory, that do not make sense to others who were not there.
According to Nessie, the cadavers at Treblinka would have had no color beyond the normal pallor of death. Livor mortis would not have had time to set in and the cherry red discoloration wasn't noticeable. Why then did the supposed eyewitnesses claim that the cadavers were of those various colors? Nessie claims that it's because I don't understand the nature of eyewitness testimony. Nessie should have no problem giving examples of such wildly divergent witness testimony but so far we have bupkis.

Edit.
Remember,
www.verywellhealth.com/carbon-monoxide- ... ms-4161052

Nov 13, 2019 · A deep red, flushed skin color (often called cherry red) is the one telltale indicator of carbon monoxide poisoning.
And:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4922045

Jul 21, 2011 · Cherry-red skin colour associated with severe carbon monoxide poisoning, is seen in only 2-3% of symptomatic cases.
Remember also that symptoms of CO poisoning occur well before COHb levels >60% are reached.

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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:33 pm
Nessie morphs his story. Now he admits that the cherry red of CO poisoning can occur but cadavers generally turn red/purple with livor motis. Well, that's true.
You just did not understand what I was saying. I have consistently said, based on the evidence, that prior to and at the time of death, cherry red skin is rare and often not obvious. It is only after death, once the blood pools, that it is common and obvious.
Except for bodies consumed by fire, mangled into small pieces, etc. ALL bodies develop livor mortis. So tell me, Nessie, would cadavers who died with a COHb level >60% be more likely to develop the cherry red skin discoloration than victims who died at a COHb level of 50%?
From what I have read, any death from severe CO will result in cherry red lividity. Whether the depth of colour varies dependant on the exposure prior to death, I do not know.
Is there any difference between the red/pink discoloration from CO and the red/purple of livor mortis?
I presume there is, but how different it is, I do not know.
Because witnesses often say things, based on their flawed recollections and memory, that do not make sense to others who were not there.
According to Nessie, the cadavers at Treblinka would have had no color beyond the normal pallor of death. Livor mortis would not have had time to set in and the cherry red discoloration wasn't noticeable.
Correct, from the medical and forensic evidence.
Why then did the supposed eyewitnesses claim that the cadavers were of those various colors?
Why do you keep on asking me the same question, I have answered on previous occasions? I do not know for sure why some witnesses said different colours.
Nessie claims that it's because I don't understand the nature of eyewitness testimony. Nessie should have no problem giving examples of such wildly divergent witness testimony but so far we have bupkis.
I am not sure what you are going on about.
Edit.
Remember,
www.verywellhealth.com/carbon-monoxide- ... ms-4161052

Nov 13, 2019 · A deep red, flushed skin color (often called cherry red) is the one telltale indicator of carbon monoxide poisoning.
Remember, that is listed under "Rare Symptoms". Only an idiot would claim that meant it was a common symptom.
And:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4922045

Jul 21, 2011 · Cherry-red skin colour associated with severe carbon monoxide poisoning, is seen in only 2-3% of symptomatic cases.
OK, so in severe CO, severe enough it results in hospitalisation, it is rare.
Remember also that symptoms of CO poisoning occur well before COHb levels >60% are reached.
Remember, no source lists cherry red skin as one of those symptoms.

Please explain how sources that list cherry red skin as rare, 2-3% and do not mention it at all, mean it is a common and obvious symptom?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie grudgingly admits that cherry red skin discoloration can appear ante mortem but is rare in symptomatic cases or in cases requiring hospitalization. However, he refuses to acknowledge that at Treblinka the victims were allegedly given a LC100 of CO and there wouldn't be any symptoms or hospitalizations. The victims were all dead with very high levels of COHb. Death from CO poisoning is rare at only 8.6% of fatalities of symptomatic cases requiring hospitalization. That is Nessie's oranges that he compares to the apples of a 100% death rate from CO poisoning at Treblinka.

Nessie wrote:
Remember, no source lists cherry red skin as one of those symptoms.
See: https://www.verywellhealth.com/carbon-m ... ms-4161052
and: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4922045
Please explain how sources that list cherry red skin as rare, 2-3% and do not mention it at all, mean it is a common and obvious symptom?
Nessie has not found any sources that reference only the LC100 of CO claimed for the AR camps. The victims of the AR camp were supposedly subjected to CO well over 6,500 PPM. There would be corresponding uniform high levels of COHb. Death occurred in anywhere from 5 to 40 minutes depending on who told the tale and which gas chamber was utilized.

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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Turnagain »

From more noodling around on the internet: https://www.usps.org/localusps/tauntonr ... noxide.htm
The signs of CO poisoning usually present first as a headache at about 400 ppm (Remember the information from above, that your inboard engine generates about 10,000 ppm) Symptoms such as dizziness, belly pain, nausea, and shortness of breath would present at about 800 ppm, often with convulsions beginning within about 45 minutes, and death within about two hours. Some of the later symptoms might also include red skin, confusion, and fainting or coma. 1,200 ppm would pose an immediate threat to your life, yet, this is a number that can often be found on the open stern deck of many boats. At 3,200 ppm you could die in 30 minutes; at 6,400 ppm death might occur within 10 – 15 minutes; 12,000 ppm equals = immediate death.
Just another source that lists red discoloration of the skin as a symptom of CO poisoning.

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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:42 pm
Nessie grudgingly admits that cherry red skin discoloration can appear ante mortem but is rare in symptomatic cases or in cases requiring hospitalization.
There is no grudging admission from me, I recognised from the start that the medical evidence stated it was a rare symptom. It is you who has failed to understand that alive cherry red skin is rare, but dead it is common.
However, he refuses to acknowledge that at Treblinka the victims were allegedly given a LC100 of CO and there wouldn't be any symptoms or hospitalizations. The victims were all dead with very high levels of COHb. Death from CO poisoning is rare at only 8.6% of fatalities of symptomatic cases requiring hospitalization. That is Nessie's oranges that he compares to the apples of a 100% death rate from CO poisoning at Treblinka.
No, only compare the 8.6% dead from the hospitals with the 100% dead from TII. Only look at what symptoms appear in those who die.

The evidence is that in fatal cases, cherry red skin prior to death is rare. Your own source, which you show below lists it as a rare symptom.
Nessie wrote:
Remember, no source lists cherry red skin as one of those symptoms.
You have quote mined and taken that out of context. I was replying to your comment "Remember also that symptoms of CO poisoning occur well before COHb levels >60% are reached.". No source lists cherry red for mild to moderate CO poisoning.
That lists cherry red as rare symptom in severe cases.
That source states cherry red is present in severe cases and it is rare in all cases. It also lists the symptoms for fatal >60% exposure as "coma, respiratory failure, death", with no mention of cherry red skin.
Please explain how sources that list cherry red skin as rare, 2-3% and do not mention it at all, mean it is a common and obvious symptom?
Nessie has not found any sources that reference only the LC100 of CO claimed for the AR camps. The victims of the AR camp were supposedly subjected to CO well over 6,500 PPM. There would be corresponding uniform high levels of COHb. Death occurred in anywhere from 5 to 40 minutes depending on who told the tale and which gas chamber was utilized.
I have found numerous sources that reference where the LC would be 100, as they list the symptoms in fatal exposure to gas. The CDC show three studies of the symptoms in fatal gassings, the NHS and BMJ list symptoms for fatal exposures. Werd showed a diagram that included death in minutes. You evidenced the NCBI report that includes exposure to >60%. None list cherry red as a symptom.

Any source that lists the symptoms for gassings >60% is listing the symptoms for fatal exposures.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:57 am
From more noodling around on the internet: https://www.usps.org/localusps/tauntonr ... noxide.htm
The signs of CO poisoning usually present first as a headache at about 400 ppm (Remember the information from above, that your inboard engine generates about 10,000 ppm) Symptoms such as dizziness, belly pain, nausea, and shortness of breath would present at about 800 ppm, often with convulsions beginning within about 45 minutes, and death within about two hours. Some of the later symptoms might also include red skin, confusion, and fainting or coma. 1,200 ppm would pose an immediate threat to your life, yet, this is a number that can often be found on the open stern deck of many boats. At 3,200 ppm you could die in 30 minutes; at 6,400 ppm death might occur within 10 – 15 minutes; 12,000 ppm equals = immediate death.
Just another source that lists red discoloration of the skin as a symptom of CO poisoning.
That non-medical source, it is a boat club, says "might also include red skin". It states that more information can be found at another boat club site here;

http://www.boatus.org/carbon-monoxide/

That site does not mention red skin. That is another source that backs me up. Skin discolouration as a symptom is rare, not common and obvious.

You produce sources that say "might" and "rare" and then argue it is common :lol:
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie furiously weasel dodges:
That source states cherry red is present in severe cases and it is rare in all cases. It also lists the symptoms for fatal >60% exposure as "coma, respiratory failure, death", with no mention of cherry red skin.
From: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4922045
Cherry-red skin colour associated with severe carbon monoxide poisoning, is seen in only 2-3% of symptomatic cases.
Here is the chart for symptoms of CO poisoning:
Blood COHb concentration (%)........Clinical manifestations
15-20............................................Mild headache, easy fatigability
20-30............................................Pounding headache, impaired motor dexterity, blurring of vision, irritability
30-40............................................Severe muscle weakness, nausea, vomiting, mental confusion or delirium
40-50............................................Tachycardia, cardiac irritability
50-60............................................Seizures, respiratory insufficiency
> 60-70..........................................Coma, respiratory failure, death
IOW, cherry red skin color is associated with severe carbon monoxide poisoning. "Symptomatic cases" range from a COHb level of 15-20% up to 50-60%. "Severe carbon monoxide poisoning", the level that is associated with cherry red skin discoloration, is only reached at COHb levels of >60%. Nessie tries to conflate the cherry red skin discoloration of severe carbon monoxide poisoning with ALL symptoms of CO poisoning.

That cherry red skin discoloration is associated with severe CO poisoning is written in plain English for all to see by the NIH but Nessie refuses to accept that. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.

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Re: Acute and chronic exposure, what do they mean?

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:45 am
Nessie furiously weasel dodges:
That source states cherry red is present in severe cases and it is rare in all cases. It also lists the symptoms for fatal >60% exposure as "coma, respiratory failure, death", with no mention of cherry red skin.
From: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4922045
Cherry-red skin colour associated with severe carbon monoxide poisoning, is seen in only 2-3% of symptomatic cases.
Not sure where the dodge is. I said the source is about "severe cases" and then you quote it is about severe cases.
Here is the chart for symptoms of CO poisoning:
Blood COHb concentration (%)........Clinical manifestations
15-20............................................Mild headache, easy fatigability
20-30............................................Pounding headache, impaired motor dexterity, blurring of vision, irritability
30-40............................................Severe muscle weakness, nausea, vomiting, mental confusion or delirium
40-50............................................Tachycardia, cardiac irritability
50-60............................................Seizures, respiratory insufficiency
> 60-70..........................................Coma, respiratory failure, death
IOW, cherry red skin color is associated with severe carbon monoxide poisoning.
That chart does not list cherry red skin for severe cases that will end in death, so that chart does not associate cherry red skin with severe cases that will kill, the LC100 that is so important.
"Symptomatic cases" range from a COHb level of 15-20% up to 50-60%. "Severe carbon monoxide poisoning", the level that is associated with cherry red skin discoloration, is only reached at COHb levels of >60%. Nessie tries to conflate the cherry red skin discoloration of severe carbon monoxide poisoning with ALL symptoms of CO poisoning.
No, since I just said "No source lists cherry red for mild to moderate CO poisoning." Cherry red skin is only ever listed, if it listed at all, for severe cases.
That cherry red skin discoloration is associated with severe CO poisoning is written in plain English for all to see by the NIH but Nessie refuses to accept that. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
It is clear to anyone with the ability to read, that what I have said is that cherry red skin is only associated with severe cases, where death will occur unless a person is rescued and treated.

Now, again, you list symptoms that do not include cherry red for severe, fatal cases. That same source states cherry red skin is rare in severe cases, such that in all cases it amounts to 2-3%. Your other source lists cherry red for severe cases in "Rare Symptoms".

Do you finally accept that in severe, fatal if not treated cases of CO poisoning, cherry red skin is rare?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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