Are "denier", "denial" and other related terms pejorative?

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Huntinger
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Re: Are the terms "denier" and "denial" pejorative?

Post by Huntinger »

Turnagain wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:11 pm
If the hoaxers are offended by such terms as "holyhoax" or the "magic Jew barbeque" then good! That is my intention.
The only problem with abusing Juden (as much fun as it is :) ) is that they use the abuse to become martyrs, more crocodile tears to show the world the plight of their persecution. Another symphony of sorrowful songs.
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Turnagain
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Re: Are "denier", "denial" and other related terms pejorative?

Post by Turnagain »

Huntinger wrote:
The only problem with abusing Juden (as much fun as it is :) ) is that they use the abuse to become martyrs, more crocodile tears to show the world the plight of their persecution. Another symphony of sorrowful songs.
Let them shed their crocodile tears. Jew awareness is cascading amongst the general population and the Jew's tears will come to nought.

Alonso
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Re: Are the terms "denier" and "denial" pejorative?

Post by Alonso »

Huntinger wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:17 pm
they use the abuse to become martyrs, more crocodile tears to show the world the plight of their persecution. Another symphony of sorrowful songs.
Indeed. And I'm sure that all of us are very much aware of that by now. Which means that that abuse doesn't support the revisionist cause, it supports the official narrative, even if unintentionally, which is the main reason why I don't like that abuse. While I do appreciate Turnagain's words and it is true that I like to be polite and forgiving, my main goal here is not to be polite and forgiving, it is to remove the obstacles that hinder the debate and obscure the truth. My goal is to make my small and humble contribution to make the truth shine. And I think that verbal abuse (from any side) is one of the main obstacles to that goal.

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Re: Are "denier", "denial" and other related terms pejorative?

Post by Turnagain »

We must agree to disagree, Alonso.

Jeffk1970
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Re: Are the terms "denier" and "denial" pejorative?

Post by Jeffk1970 »

Alonso wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:24 pm

OK, so you're taking offence at the term holohoax. But when asked what you find offensive in that term you have said that its offensiveness lies in your view that it conveys an opinion contrary to yours. So you take offence at people having opinions contrary to yours. Not much we can do about that.
You took offense at the word “denier.” Not much we can do about that.

You seem to look at this as strictly one sided. You took offense at a word yet can’t seem to figure out why I might take offense at another. We all react to words in a neutral, positive or negative sense. You are taking offense with someone not agreeing with you yet you will not extend me the same courtesy.

The only thing you can do to stop feeling offended is finding people that agree with all your opinions and talking only to those people. You're definitely not going to find that in this forum, or any other forum for that matter.
The same goes for you. You can freely use “holohoax” and “believer” to your heart’s content on this forum. On another forum that may not be the case. If you practice Holocaust denial on e-mail or Twitter or Facebook, etc. then someone may call you a Holocaust denier or a denier for short. You can choose at that moment to be offended or not.



Which means you feel distaste for every single historian ever (not to mention lawyers, judges, etc.) because all of them defend some account of who killed who and deny the alternative accounts. Again, not much we can do about that.
That doesn’t make much sense.

you are taking offense to someone’s reaction to your opinion.
No, I am not. I have already explained what I take offence at.
Yet you are. You dislike being called a “denier” because that person disagrees with you. They don’t accept your alternative history.

Jeffk1970
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Re: Are the terms "denier" and "denial" pejorative?

Post by Jeffk1970 »

Alonso wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:53 pm
Huntinger wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:17 pm
they use the abuse to become martyrs, more crocodile tears to show the world the plight of their persecution. Another symphony of sorrowful songs.
Indeed. And I'm sure that all of us are very much aware of that by now. Which means that that abuse doesn't support the revisionist cause, it supports the official narrative, even if unintentionally, which is the main reason why I don't like that abuse. While I do appreciate Turnagain's words and it is true that I like to be polite and forgiving, my main goal here is not to be polite and forgiving, it is to remove the obstacles that hinder the debate and obscure the truth. My goal is to make my small and humble contribution to make the truth shine. And I think that verbal abuse (from any side) is one of the main obstacles to that goal.
Here’s what I think, take it for what it’s worth.

I think we use terms to simplify and sometimes belittle those who we don’t agree with. That is unfortunate. I hope that you realize that this is not one sided and if you want to share your opinions then you will get a reaction.

In any case I’m out for a bit.

Alonso
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Re: Are the terms "denier" and "denial" pejorative?

Post by Alonso »

Jeffk1970 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:11 am
Alonso wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:24 pm
OK, so you're taking offence at the term holohoax. But when asked what you find offensive in that term you have said that its offensiveness lies in your view that it conveys an opinion contrary to yours. So you take offence at people having opinions contrary to yours. Not much we can do about that.
You took offense at the word “denier.” Not much we can do about that.
Yes, you can either stop using offensive words or explain why you think they're not offensive. But you already know that. You also know that it is reasonable to ask others not to use offensive words with you, but it is not reasonable to ask everybody in a forum to agree with your opinions so that you don't take offense. Since you already know all of this and yet you act like you don't, I'm starting to wonder if you actually want to get somewhere with this discussion or you just want to drag it endlessly until I give up.

Jeffk1970 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:11 am
You took offense at a word yet can’t seem to figure out why I might take offense at another.
It's not up to me to figure out what offends you. It's up to you to state it and explain it if you want others to stop doing it. The explanation you have offered is that you feel offended by opinions contrary to yours. But again, you already know that.

Jeffk1970 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:11 am
You are taking offense with someone not agreeing with you
No, I am not, and I have already told you. And of course, you already know that.

Jeffk1970 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:11 am
The only thing you can do to stop feeling offended is finding people that agree with all your opinions and talking only to those people. You're definitely not going to find that in this forum, or any other forum for that matter.
The same goes for you.
No. Yet again, I don't feel offended by people not agreeing with me. Yet again, you already know that.

Jeffk1970 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:11 am
Which means you feel distaste for every single historian ever (not to mention lawyers, judges, etc.) because all of them defend some account of who killed who and deny the alternative accounts. Again, not much we can do about that.
That doesn’t make much sense.
It certainly does, and I would make the effort of explaining it to you if I thought that you honestly don't understand and there was a chance that you try to understand. But seeing that you keep claiming that I have said things I haven't said, dodging my questions, etc., I don't think that's the case.

Jeffk1970 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:11 am
You dislike being called a “denier” because that person disagrees with you.
And yet one more time, no, I don't. I have explained very clearly why I dislike it and that's certainly not the reason. And yet one more time, you already know that.


You also know that saying something that is false when you know that it is false is called lying, and I'm afraid that's what you have been doing, no less than five times in this last post alone. Lying and dodging questions is not respectful. I hope you stop doing it, otherwise I don't see the point of continuing this discussion with you.

Jeffk1970
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Re: Are the terms "denier" and "denial" pejorative?

Post by Jeffk1970 »

Alonso wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:54 am

OK, so you're taking offence at the term holohoax. But when asked what you find offensive in that term you have said that its offensiveness lies in your view that it conveys an opinion contrary to yours. So you take offence at people having opinions contrary to yours. Not much we can do about that.

You took offense at the word “denier.” Not much we can do about that.

Yes, you can either stop using offensive words or explain why you think they're not offensive. But you already know that.
And I already explained it.
You also know that it is reasonable to ask others not to use offensive words with you, but it is not reasonable to ask everybody in a forum to agree with your opinions so that you don't take offense.
I am posting on a forum that has a majority of members who are Holocaust deniers. Of course they are going to disagree with what I have to say. The fact that they disagree with me isn’t important and I know that there will be times when I get offended. I’m an adult, I can handle it. I don’t bother to mention it most of the time because it doesn’t make a difference. There are also posters here who take that as invitation to escalate. That says more about them then it does me.

Since you already know all of this and yet you act like you don't, I'm starting to wonder if you actually want to get somewhere with this discussion or you just want to drag it endlessly until I give up.
I’m not sure how I can make this any plainer....

We all get offended by things. It happens. If you give an opinion to another person naturally you run the risk of offending that person. What I found interesting is that you object to the term “denier” yet use terms that may offend someone else. You are certainly welcome to believe whatever you want but if you mention your beliefs to someone...like your friend on the e-mail...then they may get offended. This may surprise you but a lot of people don’t share your belief system.

So you are welcome to believe what you want. But you also need to realize that if you share that belief then it may offend someone. That is their right to get offended.

Calling someone a “believer” and calling the Holocaust a “holohoax” can be offensive.


You took offense at a word yet can’t seem to figure out why I might take offense at another.

It's not up to me to figure out what offends you. It's up to you to state it and explain it if you want others to stop doing it. The explanation you have offered is that you feel offended by opinions contrary to yours. But again, you already know that.
Uh, no. I told you why. You are also one to talk considering that you object to the word “denier” from someone who doesn’t believe what you believe.

You are taking offense with someone not agreeing with you[
No, I am not, and I have already told you. And of course, you already know that.
Seems that way to me.


The rest of this is just going over the same old ground.

In any case if the word “denier” bothers you that’s simply too bad.

Alonso
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Re: Are the terms "denier" and "denial" pejorative?

Post by Alonso »

Jeffk1970 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 3:26 am
Alonso wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:54 am
Jeffk1970 wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:11 am
You are taking offense with someone not agreeing with you
No, I am not, and I have already told you. And of course, you already know that.
Seems that way to me.
OK, got you. You are not lying, you just happen to have psychic superpowers that allow you to know that I take offence at people disagreeing with me even though I have never shown that in any way and I have clearly and repeatedly stated the opposite. Fair enough. Only thing is, psychic superpowers scare me a bit, so if you don't mind in the future I will refrain from discussing stuff with you.

Turnagain
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Re: Are "denier", "denial" and other related terms pejorative?

Post by Turnagain »

See what trying to be nice to hoaxers gets you, Alonso? I'll refrain from saying, "I told ya' so".

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