Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Discuss the alleged Nazi genocide or other wartime atrocities without fear of censorship. No bullying of fellow posters is allowed at RODOH. If you can't be civil, please address the argument and not the participants. Do not use disparaging alterations of the user-names of other RODOH posters or their family members. Failure to heed warnings from Moderators will result in a 24 hour ban (or longer if necessary).
User avatar
torus9
Posts: 951
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by torus9 »

Nessie wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:52 am
Deniers love a conspiracy
It's Jewish authors themselves that nurture "conspiracy theory".
Take the following from Hilberg's The Destruction Of The European Jews


"Throughout their long period of exile, 'the Jews had always been a minority, always in danger, but had learned that they could avert or survive destruction by placating and appeasing their enemies."

Couple the preceding with;

"In 1948 "The Palestinian Issue" as it was known at the State Dept. had been long festering. Survivors of the holocaust were pouring into their  Biblical homeland  and demanding the creation of an independent Zionist state. For reasons both political and humanitarian, Truman wanted to help create a new state of Israel. He was, as well, under tremendous pressure from Jewish groups, whose support he badly needed to stay in the White House."
- The Wise Men, Six Friends And The World They Made. Walter Issacson and Evan Thomas, p.451 

This "minority" who is "always in danger" can also decide the fate of an American President? Issacson and Thomas fail to define the aforementioned "Jewish groups". Therefore we don't even know if they were "American."

"Pouring" is a tad subjective. But as you like to ask, "WHERE DID THEY GO?"


Would you like to financially contribute to the upkeep of RODOH, kindly contact Scott Smith. All contributions are welcome!


User avatar
torus9
Posts: 951
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by torus9 »

Nessie wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:52 am
Deniers love a conspiracy
Has any lieutenant confessed to "the nod?"
I can see Christoph Waltz reenacting it with a contrived solemnity that is Oscar worthy.

More Jewish authors:

"...incredible as it may seem, an "order" to send millions of people to their deaths may have been no more than a "nod" from Hitler to one of his lieutenants." 
Marrus, The Holocaust in History, citing Browning, "Zum Genesis der Endlosung," 105.Cf. Walter WuttkeGronenberg, Volk und Gesundheit: Heilen und Vernichten in Nationlsozialismus (Tubingen, 1982); Streit, Keine Kameraden, passim. 

Could the passing of wind or a twitch been mistaken for "the nod?" It gets tougher because...

"As the head of government, Hitler operated by instinct rather than analysis. Since he disdained orderly work procedures and his ministers found it difficult to gain access to him, policy making occurred in fits and starts. Anything consistent with flashes of frenetic activity thrived; anything requiring sustained effort tended to languish" 
Henry Kissinger, "Diplomacy", p.289 

Fits and starts, twitches and farts. You decide.

"Can those who write history be trusted with the Holocaust? In a book published in 1981, oddly disdainful of much recent historiography, Lucy Dawidowicz complained that "historians do not always turn out to be reliable guides to the recovery of the past." Her work was an extended protest against the mistreatment of the Holocaust by historians, their purported neglect of the subject, and their apparent unwillingness to attribute responsibility where it belongs. The historians, she seems to conclude, cannot be trusted." 
Marrus, The Holocaust In History

How can historians be unreliable guides to the past, given the "punctilious bookkeeping?"

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 28813
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by Nessie »

torus9 wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 12:51 pm
Nessie wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:52 am
That is because they knew historians would start to investigate and look for evidence to support their claims and they would come up with nothing.
The following quotes are taken from Michael R. Marrus' The Holocaust In History A Yehuda Bauer approved book, written while Marrus was Dean of History at the University of Toronto.

"The Nazi's own records provide little help. Typically, Hitler and his lieutenants cloaked their most criminal activities in euphimistic language, tried strenously to keep their murderous plans secret, and were notoriously vague in delimiting lines of authority."
p. 33

"cloaked, euphemistic, notoriously vague"

Yet a mere 4 pages prior Marrus asserts;

"The deportees went directly to Auschwitz, where 1500 were immediately gassed. We usually know about such events, it should be noted, because the Nazis tell us about them, through the careful records they kept, the punctilious bookkeeping of the Final Solution." 
ibid, p.29 

"The punctilious bookkeeping of the Final Solution" should render 10,000+ publications on Auschwitz alone as mute.
Meaning they kept good records of the registered Jews and transports to and between camps and ghettos, but they were vague about what happened to many of those Jews and avoided referring to things like gas chambers and killing people.

It is the gap in the records, where we know that people were transported to certain places, but then the records end, that we find the smoking gun that denial cannot provide and evidenced alternative to.

That is in part because no AR camp guard or member of the EG ever said anything other than gassings or mass shootings took place.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

User avatar
torus9
Posts: 951
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by torus9 »

Nessie wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:52 am
Deniers love a conspiracy
"Beyond this, Hitler had a positive aversion to orderly procedures and almost never discussed various policy options with his subordinates. As opposed to his British counterpart, Winston Churchill, who left mountains of documents, ruminating endlessly on possible courses of action, the Nazi dictator was reluctant to commit himself on paper with concrete ideas and preferred always to give orders orally, sometimes even then avoiding detailed instructions."
Marrus, The Holocaust In History

Has any lieutenant confessed to "the nod" or the uncanny psychic ability of Germans?

"At a certain point, the machine needed no operator. It required no master plan or blueprint, "In the final analysis the destruction of the Jews was not so much a product of laws and commands 
as it was a matter of spirit, of shared comprehension, of consonance and syncronization." This human machine generated its own momentum...,"operating with accelerating speed and an ever-widening destructive effect." Efficiency was its hallmark. "With an unfailing sense of direction and with an uncanny pathfinding ability, the German bureaucracy found the shortest path to the final goal." 
Marrus, The Holocaust In History, citing Hilberg, Destruction of the European Jews, I, ix. I, 9,28,55;III, 998. Cf. Fred E. Katz, "Implementation of the Holocaust: The Behaviour of Nazi Officials," Comparitive Studies in Society and History 24.

As flawless as a German timepiece yet whose mainspring operated in "fits and starts" all the while disdaining "orderly procedures."

User avatar
Lupus Rothstein
Posts: 394
Joined: Fri May 31, 2019 4:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by Lupus Rothstein »

Is Torus trying to tell us that he can't think of any Reinhardt camp guards, Einstatzgruppen personnel etc that said "killings of Jews didn't happen" ?

If not, then what exactly is he trying to tell us that's relevant to this thread ?

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 28813
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by Nessie »

I am not sure. He is dodging my point that there was a place where plenty of Nazis could have "put the record straight" about AR and the EG;

https://www.history.com/news/how-south- ... nazi-haven

"German prosecutors who examined secret files from Brazil and Chile discovered that as many as 9,000 Nazi officers and collaborators from other countries escaped from Europe to find sanctuary in South American countries. Brazil took in between 1,500 and 2,000 Nazi war criminals, while between 500 and 1,000 settled in Chile. However, by far the largest number—as many as 5,000—relocated to Argentina."

"Many of the Nazis who escaped to South America were never brought to justice. SS colonel Walter Rauff, who created mobile gas chambers that killed at least 100,000 people, died in Chile in 1984. Eduard Roschmann, the “Butcher of Riga,” died in Paraguay in 1977. Gustav Wagner, an SS officer known as the “Beast,” died in Brazil in 1980 after the country’s supreme federal court refused to extradite him to Germany because of inaccuracies in the paperwork. Perhaps the most notorious of the fugitives was Dr. Josef Mengele, the “Angel of Death” who conducted macabre experiments at the Auschwitz concentration camp."

There has never been a Holocaust denial law in any South American country, yet not one single Nazi claimed something other than mass gassings and shootings took place, so providing evidence to support Holocaust denial.

Maybe none of them wanted to be called out as a liar. Maybe they all still believed that the Jews were the enemy and had deserved to be treated as such and eliminated.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

User avatar
Huntinger
Posts: 7114
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:56 am
Location: Gasthaus Waldesruh. Swabia
Contact:

Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 8:40 pm
Maybe none of them wanted to be called out as a liar. Maybe they all still believed that the Jews were the enemy and had deserved to be treated as such and eliminated.
Nessie has made the assumption that people escaped to another country to avoid their war crimes; sadly that is what all belligerents say about refugees from any war zone. They were well aware of the "take no prisoners" protocols of the Soviets; it is estimated about 400 000 germans were murdered in cold blood by the Soviets. The stupid diatribe on Dr Mengele is not worth commenting on, just more Soviet Propaganda which he believes.

This poster is full of assumptions and short of facts, lack of evidence. Perhaps he should read some books on evidencing.

On that note, one does does hear of many refugees these days stand up and say the truth about their situation; sometimes it is far more prudent to keep ones mouth shut especially when it is not likely to make much difference. Nessie got one thing correct:
Der Jude ist der Feind der Menschheit.


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

𝕳𝖚̈𝖓𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖗

Enigma Charlie
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:14 am
Contact:

Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by Enigma Charlie »

This thread is another example of Holocaust deniers not wanting to believe what the Nazis who ran the camps testified what happened at the camps.

There is no evidence that any of the Nazis, guards and others who ran the camps lied or were forced to state what they did.

Holocaust deniers will naturally deny any evidence that goes against their silly little conspiracy theory that the Holocaust was a hoax.

Holocaust deniers use the term ‘Holocaust revisionism’ as a mask to try and hide their conspiracy theory and anti-semitism, but anyone who bothers spend a few minutes reading their tactics, arguments, abuse, denial, etc, will soon read their Holocaust denial and anti-semitism.

Kindest regards,

Charlie

User avatar
Huntinger
Posts: 7114
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:56 am
Location: Gasthaus Waldesruh. Swabia
Contact:

Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by Huntinger »

Enigma Charlie wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 3:49 pm
There is no evidence that any of the Nazis, guards and others who ran the camps lied or were forced to state what they did.
Image
Holocaust deniers will naturally deny any evidence that goes against their silly little conspiracy theory that the Holocaust was a hoax.

Holocaust deniers use the term ‘Holocaust revisionism’ as a mask to try and hide their conspiracy theory and anti-semitism, but anyone who bothers spend a few minutes reading their tactics, arguments, abuse, denial, etc, will soon read their Holocaust denial and anti-semitism.
What a load of childish nonsense, off topic and as usual nothing to add.


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

𝕳𝖚̈𝖓𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖗

User avatar
been-there
Propositions Moderator
Posts: 9219
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:59 am
Contact:

Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by been-there »

Nessie wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:52 am
Deniers love a conspiracy
torus9 wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 1:48 pm
It's Jewish authors themselves that nurture "conspiracy theory".

Take the following from Hilberg's The Destruction Of The European Jews
"Throughout their long period of exile, 'the Jews had always been a minority, always in danger, but had learned that they could avert or survive destruction by placating and appeasing their enemies."
Couple the preceding with;
"In 1948 "The Palestinian Issue" as it was known at the State Dept. had been long festering. Survivors of the holocaust were pouring into their  Biblical homeland  and demanding the creation of an independent Zionist state. For reasons both political and humanitarian, Truman wanted to help create a new state of Israel. He was, as well, under tremendous pressure from Jewish groups, whose support he badly needed to stay in the White House."
— The Wise Men, Six Friends And The World They Made. Walter Issacson and Evan Thomas, p.451 
This "minority" who is "always in danger" can also decide the fate of an American President? Issacson and Thomas fail to define the aforementioned "Jewish groups". Therefore we don't even know if they were "American."

"Pouring" is a tad subjective. But as you like to ask, "WHERE DID THEY GO?"
torus9 wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 2:39 pm
Has any lieutenant confessed to "the nod?"
I can see Christoph Waltz reenacting it with a contrived solemnity that is Oscar worthy.

More Jewish authors:
"...incredible as it may seem, an "order" to send millions of people to their deaths may have been no more than a "nod" from Hitler to one of his lieutenants." 
Marrus, The Holocaust in History, citing Browning, "Zum Genesis der Endlosung," 105.Cf. Walter WuttkeGronenberg, Volk und Gesundheit: Heilen und Vernichten in Nationlsozialismus (Tubingen, 1982); Streit, Keine Kameraden, passim. 
Could the passing of wind or a twitch been mistaken for "the nod?" It gets tougher because...
"As the head of government, Hitler operated by instinct rather than analysis. Since he disdained orderly work procedures and his ministers found it difficult to gain access to him, policy making occurred in fits and starts. Anything consistent with flashes of frenetic activity thrived; anything requiring sustained effort tended to languish" 
Henry Kissinger, "Diplomacy", p.289 
Fits and starts, twitches and farts. You decide.
"Can those who write history be trusted with the Holocaust? In a book published in 1981, oddly disdainful of much recent historiography, Lucy Dawidowicz complained that "historians do not always turn out to be reliable guides to the recovery of the past." Her work was an extended protest against the mistreatment of the Holocaust by historians, their purported neglect of the subject, and their apparent unwillingness to attribute responsibility where it belongs. The historians, she seems to conclude, cannot be trusted." 
Marrus, The Holocaust In History
How can historians be unreliable guides to the past, given the "punctilious bookkeeping?"
torus9 wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 2:56 pm
"Beyond this, Hitler had a positive aversion to orderly procedures and almost never discussed various policy options with his subordinates. As opposed to his British counterpart, Winston Churchill, who left mountains of documents, ruminating endlessly on possible courses of action, the Nazi dictator was reluctant to commit himself on paper with concrete ideas and preferred always to give orders orally, sometimes even then avoiding detailed instructions."
Marrus, The Holocaust In History
Has any lieutenant confessed to "the nod" or the uncanny psychic ability of Germans?
"At a certain point, the machine needed no operator. It required no master plan or blueprint.
In the final analysis the destruction of the Jews was not so much a product of laws and commands as it was a matter of spirit, of shared comprehension, of consonance and syncronization."


This human machine generated its own momentum... "operating with accelerating speed and an ever-widening destructive effect."

Efficiency was its hallmark.: "With an unfailing sense of direction and with an uncanny pathfinding ability, the German bureaucracy found the shortest path to the final goal".
Marrus, The Holocaust In History, citing Hilberg, Destruction of the European Jews, I, ix. I, 9,28,55;III, 998. Cf. Fred E. Katz, "Implementation of the Holocaust: The Behaviour of Nazi Officials," Comparitive Studies in Society and History 24.
As flawless as a German timepiece yet whose mainspring operated in "fits and starts" all the while disdaining "orderly procedures."
Excellent! :)

Thanks for this, Torus.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 20 guests