Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

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Jeffk
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Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by Jeffk »

I am looking through the records of the various trials, and also scattered accounts from books, etc, and what is striking to me is I cannot find a single person who was in a position to witness the killing of Jews (Einsatzgruppen personnel, Reinhardt camp or Auschwitz guards, Reinhardt camp or Auschwitz pn-site administrators, etc) who denied it happened.

Can someone give me an example of an AR camp or Auschwitz guard (or on-site administrator), or an Einsatzgruppen personnel, who says "I was there, the murder of Jews didn't happen"? With sources please.
Last edited by Jeffk on Tue May 05, 2020 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by Scott »

WiseGnome wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 1:51 am
I am looking through the records of the various trials, and also scattered accounts from books, etc, and what is striking to me is I cannot find a single person who was in a position to witness the killing of Jews (Einsatzgruppen personnel, Reinhardt camp or Auschwitz guards, Reinhardt camp or Auschwitz administrators, etc) who denied it happened.

Can someone give me an example of a AR camp or Auschwitz guard (or on-site administrator), or an Einsatzgruppen personnel, who says "I was there, the murder of Jews didn't happen"? With sources please.


Why would anybody do that? There is no way to escape these Orwellian circumstances.

The closer you might have been to have directly seen any action the more likely you are to be harassed by the system of the Victors should you talk about it at all.

Today even nonagenarian accountants who counter-signal Revisionists in the media are now finding themselves in the Gulag because better Nazi "optics" targets have simply died off.

Remember, we live in a world where you can say some pretty outlandish and stupid stuff and not get into trouble.

But say anything related to Holocaust Denial and you personally cross the pale into non-personhood. This is especially true if you were on the losing side of the Greatest War of All Times.

:)

“Now we have forced Hitler to war so he no longer can peacefully annihilate one piece of the Treaty of Versailles after the other.”
~ Major General J.F.C. Fuller,
historian – England

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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by torus9 »

"Almost everyone who lived through the period of the Holocaust, observing it from either near or far will readily testify that information concerning the Nazi murder of the Jews, when it first came out seemed absolutely unbelievable - impossible." 
Jacob Katz, 
"Was the Holocaust Predictable?" 
Commentary, May 1975, 

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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by been-there »

WiseGnome wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 1:51 am
I am looking through the records of the various trials, and also scattered accounts from books, etc, and what is striking to me is I cannot find a single person who was in a position to witness the killing of Jews (Einsatzgruppen personnel, Reinhardt camp or Auschwitz guards, Reinhardt camp or Auschwitz pn-site administrators, etc) who denied it happened.

Can someone give me an example of an AR camp or Auschwitz guard (or on-site administrator), or an Einsatzgruppen personnel, who says "I was there, the murder of Jews didn't happen"? With sources please.
Well not that "murder of Jews didn't happen". We need to be precise here.
Of course Jews were murdered!
Millions of non-combatant civilians were murdered, during that war, including by the Allies. What do you think happened at Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc.?

The 'holocaust' claim is that many millions were systematically murdered in extermination camps, as a policy of planned genocide, in gas chambers.

And not only is there NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE OF THAT but there WERE many "AR camp or Auschwitz guards (or on-site administrators)" who refuted that.

Richard Baer is an excellent example of what you are asking for as he was the last Auschwitz 1 Kommandant, so you would think he just might possibly know something about what the Birkenau camp was for and it's functioning. :ugeek:

Josef Kramer is another who initially refuted the allegation. See info with references here

Heinrich Himmler is another. He categorically denied the mass-murder genocide allegation when negotiating handover of Jewish captives to the Jewish representative of the WJC named Norbert Masur. See info with references here

Oswald Pohl is another. See info with references here

What happened to Baer and Himmler are also telling examples of what the victorious Allies did to their prisoners-of-war who knew the reality and didn't go along with the atrocity propaganda that had been invented to demonise the vanquished.

Baer's 'convenient' death in custody after his testimony refuting the 'gas chamber mass-murder' war-cime allegation was mentioned in the account by another person who served at Auschwitz, though not as a guard or administrator: Wilhelm Stäglich. During World War two Stäglich had served during 1944 as an orderly officer near the Auschwitz camp. Part of his duties involved regular contact with the SS camp command at Auschwitz, and he therefore had unlimited access to Auschwitz 1, where the command was headquartered.
Stäglich appears to have been a brave, principled and honest man who saw the obvious contradiction between his own eye-witness experience of Auschwitz and the narrative of the camp that was spread by the Allies post-war.
Look what happened to him, and he was not even implicated. Imagine what would happen to a guard.

Here Stäglich recounts what happened to Kommandant Baer:
Particularly noteworthy is the fate of the most prominent of the defendants, Richard Baer, the last commandant of Auschwitz. He did not live to see the beginning of the trial.

In December of 1960, Baer was arrested in the vicinity of Hamburg, where he was employed as a lumberjack. He died in June of 1963 under mysterious circumstance while being held in pre-trial custody. According to various sources, which, in turn, rely on reports that appeared in the French press, Baer adamantly refused to confirm the existence of "gas chambers" at the camp he once administered.
Although it has been alleged that he was eliminated by poisoning on account of this refusal, the cause of his death has never been established. His wife claimed that he was in excellent health. While Langbein merely states that an autopsy revealed that he died of "natural causes". Naumann specifies a "circulatory ailment" as the cause of death. Of course a circulatory ailment is only a symptom of pre-existing disease that has causes of its own. It is quite possible, however, that the physical condition of this strong and healthy outdoor laborer deteriorated as a result of his treatment in prison. That would be damning enough to those suspicious of the whole affair when one reads the report on the autopsy performed at the Frankfurt-Main University School of Medicine: "The ingestion of an odourless, non-corrosive poison...cannot be ruled out". Nevertheless, there was no further probe into the cause of Baer's death, and chief Public Prosecutor Bauer (Jewish) ordered his body cremated. [...]

One may dismiss the possibility that Baer committed suicide, since, according to his wife, he was counting on an acquittal. Moreover, shortly before his death Baer complained to the guards that he was feeling ill and asked for a physician. That is hardly the action of someone who intends to take his own life. This mysterious event hardly attracted public attention, and presumably the affair was systematically hushed up.

When one considers the reaction the death of an inmate in a German prison usually calls forth among officials, legislators, and the mass media, it seems astounding that this case was kept so quiet, all the more so because Baer was no ordinary prisoner, but a man whose testimony could have had the greatest impact in the upcoming trial. The suspicion that interested parties had Baer removed by means of poison- — as has often been claimed — cannot be dismissed. The motives for such an action are obvious. If anyone at all knew the truth about the "gas chamber" allegation, it was Baer, the last commandant of Auschwitz.

That he refused to give his authoritative confirmation to the "gas chamber" story is shown by the fact that the statements he made during his interrogation were not read into the trial record. They must have been of no value to the prosecution. What the main defendant had to say about the central accusation regarding Auschwitz was anything but a matter of indifference to the initiators of the trial. Had Baer resolutely contested this allegation and been able to show its absurdity, he would not only have made it difficult for them to attain their primary objective — to reinforce the "gas chamber" myth and establish it as an unassailable "historical fact" — but he might also have caused the proceedings to take an entirely different course. By his steadfastness, Baer would have set an example for the co-defendants to follow, and perhaps even influenced some of the other participants in the trial. Hence, one should give some credence to the charge that Baer's refusal to play the role assigned him in the script is the reason the trial could not begin until after his death...

The fact is that the Auschwitz Trial did begin almost immediately after Baer's death. Laternser is of the opinion that there was too much haste involved. However, the preliminary investigations were completed on October 19, 1962, as Langbein informs us, so nothing much really could have stood in the way of the start of the trial — except, of course, Baer's "stubbornness".

Auschwitz: a Judge looks at the evidence
The same info is repeated here: THE CAPTURE AND DEATH OF RICHARD BAER by C.W.Porter
http://www.cwporter.com/b1.

There is an informative thread on Baer here: http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=3073

There it quotes the French weekly "Rivarol" in an article entitled "Six Millions - oui ou non?" which reportedly has written:
"Il n'y avait jamais vu ni su qu'il y existait des chambres à gaz"
"He never has seen nor has he known of the existence of gas chambers"
.
(Source: Dr. Dr. Franz Scheidl, "Geschichte der Verfemung Deutschlands", Vol. 4, Wien o.J., pp.115-120. http://vho.org/D/gdvd_4/I6.html)

But later there are quotes in the same thread implying that Herr Baer accepted that there were gas chambers at Birkenau but that as this camp was NOT under his control he was not responsible for that nor could give information about it.

This seems to fit with my understanding — discussed here — that without exception, all German officers and functionaries claimed initially not to know of any systematic gassing policy ever existing until after the war and the resulting trials. They then came to accept the coerced testimonies of people like Höss, but maintained they did not know about it nor were a part of that.

The reality is that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF the defendants at Nuremburg denied any knowledge of a policy to exterminate ALL Jews.
EVERY SINGLE ONE OF the defendants at Nuremburg denied any knowledge of a system of mass-gassing Jews.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF the surviving invited participants at Wannsee denied any knowledge of a policy to exterminate ALL Jews.


The facts appear to be that any courageous SS men who were ready to step up and tell us what really happened to the Jews were rather conveniently permitted to 'hang themselves' in their prison cells just prior to their appearance in public show-trials.

Or mysteriously and conveniently died of ‘natural causes’ in their prison cells just prior to their appearance in public show-trials, despite being apparently in very good health. E.g. Auschwitz kommandant Richard Baer.

If you want to know why SS men kept quiet look at what happened recently to Karl Münter.

Image
Earlier this year prosecutors in Hildesheim charged Münter with incitement after he appeared on a television documentary last year in which he defended the shooting of the prisoners in Ascq and disputed the Nazi Holocaust. Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany.
In the documentary, he said he had not shot anyone personally in Ascq, but maintained that the killings were justified because the prisoners had tried to escape.
“If I arrest the men, then I have the responsibility for them and if they run away, I have a right to shoot them,” he said.

He also disputed the fact that six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, saying “we didn’t have that many Jews here at that time, that’s already been disproved”.

ARD also reported that Münter had close ties to neo-Nazi groups in recent years, talking to them about his experiences in the SS.

His incitement case was still pending trial when he died.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 17026.html
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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by Nessie »

Scott wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 2:22 am
WiseGnome wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 1:51 am
I am looking through the records of the various trials, and also scattered accounts from books, etc, and what is striking to me is I cannot find a single person who was in a position to witness the killing of Jews (Einsatzgruppen personnel, Reinhardt camp or Auschwitz guards, Reinhardt camp or Auschwitz administrators, etc) who denied it happened.

Can someone give me an example of a AR camp or Auschwitz guard (or on-site administrator), or an Einsatzgruppen personnel, who says "I was there, the murder of Jews didn't happen"? With sources please.


Why would anybody do that?
Thankyou for admitting there is no Nazi who claimed no gassings at the AR camps or inside the kremas or mass shootings by the EG.

If there had been no gassings, every single Nazi would have denied the claims. Why would they not? It was just after the end of the war, it was well known that the Soviets in particular were peddling atrocity stories and the Allies were aware of false claims about gas chambers at many camps.

I am quite sure the Nazis who worked at Bergen-Belsen and other western camps denied any reports that those camps had gas chambers. They were believed. None of them were charged over gassings.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by Nessie »

torus9 wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 2:33 am
"Almost everyone who lived through the period of the Holocaust, observing it from either near or far will readily testify that information concerning the Nazi murder of the Jews, when it first came out seemed absolutely unbelievable - impossible." 
Jacob Katz, 
"Was the Holocaust Predictable?" 
Commentary, May 1975, 
Correct, there was disbelief. In that early post war climate, Nazis who claimed that AR camps were transit camps and the kremas were used as showers or bomb shelters would have found an accepting audience.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by Huntinger »

The same question could be posited to the Germans in WWI, where similar fake atrocity claims were made.
There is ample evidence given in this forum that the high ranking leaders of the Reich heard of the atrocity rumours, dismissing them for what they were.


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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by been-there »

Regarding Bergen-Belsen, it WAS presented to the gullible masses as proof of a 'death camp'. The camp Kommandant and Doctors and guards were brutally beaten and tortured by their captors who also had been fed that deceit and had believed that lie.

And there WERE 'lie-witness' Jewish inmates who spread the lie that there were homicidal gas chambers at Bergen-Belsen. And at Dachau. All much later quietly acknowledged by the academics to be lies. Which in itself is evidence of how the 'h' narrative started and developed. These lies are still repeated by gullible ignoramuses in journalism, museums, etc. And pointing out the innaccuracy will get you banned, sacked, mistrusted, ostracised. Because the masses have no inclination — nor are presented access — to the facts and later corrections. And the experts, judiciary, police, etc., do not defend and protect truth-tellers on this guarded topic. If you doubt it, look what happened fairly recently to Ursula Haverbeck, Alison Chabloz, Sylvia Stolz, Monika Schaefer, etc.

If anyone is seriously, genuinely interested in ascertaining the truth of the 'holocaust' enforced narrative, they only have to look at the treatment of Dr. Richard Barton, a medical officer who was part of the group tasked with operating the hand over of responsibility for that camp to the British. He was vilified for narrating THE TRUTH of what he witnessed. And that was thirty years later in the 1970's. If that is the treatment meted out to a British eye-witness who refuted the Allied atrocity propaganda, we can safely conclude that the treatment of SS guards who were implicated would be much, much worse!

Ernst Zündel courageously preserved Dr. Barton's testimony for posterity. And we know how the so-called 'freedom-loving' west treated him.

To Wisegnome, you will regretably not find any honest defender of the narrative on any chat forum. That has been my experience after about five years: they are all — without exception — dishonest and/or deluded individuals who are incapable of honest, logical, rational debate and discussion. Watch and see for yourself. :) :ugeek:

What is more, we live in a society that has been raised on deliberate lies and deceits. Again, in my experience few people have the strength of mind and maturity to go against their decades of conditioning. But the internet has been a game changer. New generations are being exposed to the truth BEFORE they become fixed in their thinking. Which is why the Jews who own Youtube, Google, Quora, Facebook, Wikipedia, etc., are increasingly trying to censor it.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by Nessie »

been-there wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 1:10 pm
Regarding Bergen-Belsen, it WAS presented to the gullible masses as proof of a 'death camp'. The camp Kommandant and Doctors and guards were brutally beaten and tortured by their captors who also had been fed that deceit and had believed that lie.

And there WERE 'lie-witness' Jewish inmates who spread the lie that there were homicidal gas chambers at Bergen-Belsen. And at Dachau. All much later quietly acknowledged by the academics to be lies.
It is hardly "quietly acknowledged" when even basic histories of Bergen-Belsen and Dachau are clear that no mass gassings took place there.
Which in itself is evidence of how the 'h' narrative started and developed. These lies are still repeated by gullible ignoramuses in journalism, museums, etc. And pointing out the innaccuracy will get you banned, sacked, mistrusted, ostracised. Because the masses have no inclination — nor are presented access — to the facts and later corrections. And the experts, judiciary, police, etc., do not defend and protect truth-tellers on this guarded topic. If you doubt it, look what happened fairly recently to Ursula Haverbeck, Alison Chabloz, Sylvia Stolz, Monika Schaefer, etc.
You are now conflating all of the camps. It is not illegal to deny gas chambers in camps that did not have them, it is when they did have them. Whether or not a camp had a gas chamber has been determined by the evidence, something which deniers just do not understand.
If anyone is seriously, genuinely interested in ascertaining the truth of the 'holocaust' enforced narrative, they only have to look at the treatment of Dr. Richard Barton, a medical officer who was part of the group tasked with operating the hand over of responsibility for that camp to the British. He was vilified for narrating THE TRUTH of what he witnessed. And that was thirty years later in the 1970's. If that is the treatment meted out to a British eye-witness who refuted the Allied atrocity propaganda, we can safely conclude that the treatment of SS guards who were implicated would be much, much worse!

Ernst Zündel courageously preserved Dr. Barton's testimony for posterity. And we know how the so-called 'freedom-loving' west treated him.
Dr Russell Barton's comparison of the NHS to a Nazi concentration camp was never going to go down well;

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... ode=fcbh20

"Russell Barton was one of the 96 London medical student volunteers who went to Belsen concentration camp in Germany, 2 weeks after its liberation in 1945, to help survivors. Barton later became a psychiatrist. In 1968, he wrote about the medical students’ experiences and his understanding of Belsen based on his time there, in an invited article in Purnell’s History of the Second World War. He perceived parallels between the regimes controlling Belsen and National Health Service psychiatric hospitals, noted similar harmful psychological consequences for those held within and commented that the public appeared to turn a blind eye to both. His article outraged readers. While some of his interpretations of Belsen were incorrect, his experience there connected intimately with his passion and persistence to provide humane and dignified treatment and care for patients and to improve hospital facilities. Later, Holocaust deniers cited his article."

Barton is listed as one of the "unsung heroes" by Imperial College London, in this article about the medical students who went to Bergen- Belsen;

http://wwwf.imperial.ac.uk/blog/imperia ... en-belsen/
To Wisegnome, you will regretably not find any honest defender of the narrative on any chat forum. That has been my experience after about five years: they are all — without exception — dishonest and/or deluded individuals who are incapable of honest, logical, rational debate and discussion. Watch and see for yourself. :) :ugeek:

What is more, we live in a society that has been raised on deliberate lies and deceits. Again, in my experience few people have the strength of mind and maturity to go against their decades of conditioning. But the internet has been a game changer. New generations are being exposed to the truth BEFORE they become fixed in their thinking. Which is why the Jews who own Youtube, Google, Quora, Facebook, Wikipedia, etc., are increasingly trying to censor it.
Your agenda, driven by your anti-Semitism, is to spread an unevidenced false history of what happened on the internet. You then get upset when Jewish people react and try to stop that from happening. You are also rather hypocritical, as you would like to see censorship of alternative views to denial on this forum.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Are there any Reinhardt camp guards, Einsatzgruppen personnel, etc who said killings of Jews didn't happen?

Post by Jeffk »

Been-there

Every one of the people you mentioned confessed to knowledge of the mass murder of the Jews. The one exception is Himmler in his negotiation with Masur (who had an obvious diplomatic incentive to lie, and unlike postwar defendants couldn't be disproved, since Germany was still in possession of the camps and documentary evidence), but he confessed to it in other contexts. You're being misled by memes.

At Nuremberg, where we're talking about people who were not actually working in death camps or the Einsatzgruppen, and therefore had a measure of plausible deniability, you did have the majority of main defendants deny knowledge of the exterminations. But not all. Kaltenbrunner admitted to knowledge of the Holocaust but claimed he tried to stop it, and that he was responsible for Himmler's October 1944 order to stop gassing Jews.

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