Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

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Huntinger
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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 12:43 pm
Rather than go over that same evidence again, could the deniers here start to list their evidence as to what did happen inside TII.
Poster is attempting to change the topic.


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Lupus Rothstein
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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Lupus Rothstein »

Turnagain wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:00 pm
Lupus frantically weasel dodges through another long-winded post. First of all, the primary purpose of the experiment was to determine the use of accelerants in arson cases. Lupus wrote:
You dishonestly tried to inflate the amount of fuel used in the key experiment. The key experiment used 2.75 gallons, but you keep babbling on about several gallons.
The first car in the experiment used 6 quarts of gasoline and the fire was extinguished after about an hour of burning. The second car had 11 quarts of gasoline poured in the interior and was allowed to burn itself out. Lupus' contention that the gasoline used to burn the first car "didn't count" and I'm lying about "several gallons" is just simple minded bullshit.

So maybe Turnagain would like to explain how the fuel requirements for the first experiment has any relevance to what we are discussing here, ie the SECOND experiment . And when he's done that, maybe he can explain why he dishonestly attributed 'several gallons' of gasoline to the SECOND experiment in his post here : viewtopic.php?p=170786#p170786
Per Turanagain :
This was after several gallons of gasoline was used as fuel along with the fuel from the car's interior. In neither case was the entire body of the sheep consumed. I suppose that the wool of the sheep was to substitute for the clothing worn by the victims in the accidental car fire.
The above post by Turnagain was in response to my post about the results of the SECOND experiment. He therefore tries to claim 'several gallons' were used for the SECOND experiment. :shock:

I wonder what form of bullshit squirming will he conjure up next to explain his bullshit :oops: :oops:



Turnagain wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:00 pm
Turnagain can't explain why a fire would be sustained under the sheep for 3 hours. He's basically shitting his pants even contemplating exploring the scenario here :lol: :lol:

He then desperately maintains his stance over the 'partially' cremated state of the sheep. Not as though this help him in any way. For one the fire was put out after 3 hours after 70% of the carcass had been consumed.
No, the fire was extinguished in the first car after about 1 hour. The fire in the second car was allowed to burn itself out. A quote from the article:
...a modest fire continued around the carcass for more than three hours.
After the carcass quit burning, there was still 50 lbs of intact carcass left. Lupus' apparently contends that even though the sheep's carcass quit burning after about 3 hours and left 50 lbs of intact carcass, the 2,000 to 3,000 dead Jews would burn all night and leave nothing but ashes.
Correct. Turnagain thinks that just because 30% of the sheep was left intact in a small scale experiment, the same would happen for 2,000 bodies at Treblinka !! :roll: It don't work like that, dumbass. For one, the conditions at Treblinka made the cremations more potent. We had an expert design the whole shabang . Also due to the much larger scale of cremations at Treblinka, the fire temperature would be seriously hotter, and economies of scale would come into play. The sheep experiment just gives an indication on a small scale what would be achievable . If the scale is increased then better results would be achieved.

Turnagain also ignores the conclusion of the sheep experiment . Here it is again, in red just in case he tries to ignore it again :
The findings show that for a ewe, and presumably for a human also, the body can be rather thoroughly consumed by fire by its own fat.....
Turnagain wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:00 pm
Read it and weep Turnagain, your once loyal friend "science" has turned round and bit you on the ass so bad that you won't be able to sit down for a week :lol:
Again, no. That most of a body can be burned using it's own fat under certain conditions, that in no way describes the complete cremation of thousands of bodies at a time piled onto a railroad rail grate and set ablaze with anything from twigs the size of toothpicks to brush/brushwood with or without gasoline thrown on it.

Following the findings of the Ettling experiment, 2,500 cadavers weighing an average of 45 kg would reduce down to 33,750 kg (73,385 lbs) of remains. Consider any average weight for the cadavers you wish and you still end up with thousands of kg of remains. Rajchman declared that the cremains were pulverized down to the consistency of cigarette ash.
Dealt with above
Turnagain wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:00 pm
I wrote:
Before the magic Jew barbeque, gasoline was used in an attempt to burn the cadavers. Pouring gasoline on the cadavers didn't work. With the magic Jew barbeque supposedly in place, there are some claims that the kindling used to set the bodies ablaze was doused with gasoline. Can you comprehend the difference, Lupus? In the first instance, the cadavers had gasoline poured on them and in the second, the kindling may or may not have had gasoline poured on it.
Nope, Lupus can't comprehend that simple fact. I'll try again. Do you understand that an attempt was made to burn the cadavers before Floss and his magic Jew barbeque supposedly arrived at Treblinka? Gasoline was used in a failed attempt to cremate the bodies. Try to pay attention, Lupus, and you can comprehend how the FIRST attempt at cremating the cadavers using gasoline didn't work that well. It used too much gasoline and the bodies wouldn't burn that well. Can you comprehend that the FIRST attempt to cremate bodies failed?

Then came Floss. His magic Jew barbeque obviated any need for fuel to cremate the cadavers. He knew the secret of how to arrange the bodies so that they would burn on their own after being set ablaze with kindling. The kindling was described variously by the alleged witnesses and in some instances gasoline was used on the kindling. Some witnesses described the kindling as not having an acelerant poured on it. However, the bodies didn't have gasoline or any other acelerant poured on them. Can you comprehend that difference, Lupus? In the first failed attempt to burn the bodies gasoline was used on the cadavers themselves. With the Floss method, some claim that gasoline was used on the kindling and other witnesses don't. NOBODY claimed that the cadavers themselves had gasoline or some other acelerant poured on them.
Your original claim appeared to suggest that no gasoline was used post Floss. Now you acknowledge it was used. :roll:

Turnagain wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:00 pm
Finkelstein was not lying as he never claimed anything about the death toll. He was not lying about the number of graves too. That is the number he thought was right. You can't prove otherwise.
Finklestein claimed that there were 21 graves with as many as 200,000 bodies per grave. That's what he SAID in the quote I posted. Your claim that he "thought" 21 was the correct number of graves is just another example of your mindless bullshit. I don't have to "prove" anything. It's what Finklestein SAID in a court deposition.
Turnagain fails to prove Finkelstein was lying.
Turnagain wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:00 pm
Matthes did corroborate Finkesltein on the key subject matter of this discussion, which was the use of liquid fuel. So you have lied again. Tut tut . This is not looking good on your CV is it, mate ?
Some witnesses said that gasoline was used on the kindling, others said the kindling was simply lit with a match. What is "key" is your utterly mindless claptrap. Your apparently want to cherry pick the testimony of Finklestein and Matthes and ignore the testimony of Rajchman, Wiernik, et al.
You claimed Matthes did not corroborate Finkelstein and I proved you wrong, end of. No problem if Rajchmann or Wiernik did not mention gasoline. That doesn't mean gasoline was not used.
Turnagain wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:00 pm
Yep, all the others confirmed that wood or branches were used as fuel.
Nope, twigs, brushwood or "enough wood to build some small campfires" was used as KINDLING to set the bodies ablaze. After the bodies were set ablaze, the fat from the first layer of fat women was sufficient to cremate the bulk of the cadavers. That presupposes that the draglines could exhume whole bodies from the graves. That presupposition is bullshit, Lupus. That the nonexistent fat women contained enough caloric energy to cremate some 2,500 cadavers is an extreme quantity of bullshit. I don't call it the magic Jew barbeque for nothing, Lupus.
Turnagain claims draglines exhuming whole bodies is bullshit. I don't know why he's threw this little chestnut into the debate again. Especially considering body parts were witnessed falling from the excavators buckets. This fact even supports Turnagains position to some degree, so this will no doubt cause him to become confused about where to take this argument. Turnagain then claims fat women don't have any fat - he calls it non-existant !! Oh dear, he may want to rethink his position here. The sheep experiment proves how it can be done, but Turnagain can't handle it. :lol:
Turnagain wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:00 pm
As previously noted, according to Rajchamnn there were sometimes whole charred heads and feet etc remaining, so what's your problem with this ?
Nothing. Rajchman claimed that the cremated cadavers sometimes retained their skeletal form. Your attempt to equate the intact portions of the sheep carcasses to Rajchman's fully cremated cadavers is what's idiotic. Idiocy seems to be your specialty, Lupus.
I can't see Rajchmann claiming they "retained their skeletal form". However I can see him claim whole charred heads and feet sometimes remained. Maybe you have a different source ?
Turnagain wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:00 pm
As I have already pointed out to you, the sheep had unburnt parts remaining because of the relatively reduced cremation period, ie 3 hours compared with all night at Treblinka . Has this simple but inconvenient fact sunk in yet ?
No, as I've already pointed out, the blaze in the second car was allowed to burn itself out. Only the blaze in the first car was extinguished. Once again, here's the quote:
...a modest fire continued around the carcass for more than three hours.
What part of that don't you understand, Lupus? The "modest fire" was allowed to burn at its own pace until it went out. At that point, 50 lbs of intact carcass remained.
Turnagain appears to be claiming that just because the experiment fire burnt itself out after 3 hours, then the Treblinka cremations would do the same. This wouldnt be the case due to my already mentioned reasons re scale earlier. But what Turnagain should be concerned about, is how could a fire last 3 hours when all the additional fuel has been burnt up. Was this the wick effect ?
Turnagain wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:00 pm
Rajchman was simply fantasizing. IOW, he was lying like a rug. Blood is NOT flammable but you klowns continue to cite this fool. Rajchman claimed that the bodies on the magic Jew barbeque were set ablaze with some twigs and withing ten minutes there was a roaring fire that couldn't be approached any closer than 50 meters. That kinda' knocks your theory that the cadavers burned slowly for the entire night into a cocked hat, Lupus. Maybe you should put Rajchman on "ignore", Lupus.
If you had any common sense you would realise he wasnt talking literally about the blood burning. It was just a turn of phrase . He also mentioned dry branches and dry bushes were used for fuel, but I see you conveniently leave this out. In his shoah interview he says 50 feet, so this could well be what he actually meant. So, another 'liar' claim goes into the trash bin :lol: :lol:
Turnagain wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:00 pm
Oh dear, not too sure you're gonna be as cocky when you realise I've just demolished your nonsense and exposed you as a liar and fraud. Still, I'm especially looking forward to you explaining how a fire was sustained under the sheep for 3 hours, with hardly any fuel other than the char and ash underneath.
Well, I'm sure that, like Herman Rosenblatt, that's true in your own mind. Rational people will think otherwise. Your claims for the Ettling experiment is mostly a figment of your imagination. For example, your claim that the burning sheep was extinguished is bullshit. For another, you use only the first page of the actual report. That is an excerpt from a rather expensive research site. $29.95 for a two day look at the site. Only one page is shown and ends,
A necessary condition is that the body be suspended in such a way that it is over the fire which is fed...
Lupus then takes a giant leap from a sheep's carcass which remained partially intact to hundreds of thousands of human cadavers completely consuming themselves on the magic Jew barbeque.

Oh well, so it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
Check out Turnagain clinging on to the hope that the 2nd page of the experiment would contain something to help his cause :lol: :lol: Go and buy it then if you reckon . He's trying to suggest i only showed the first page to hide the rest , as if i'm gonna spend 29.95 for that . Lets remind him what is on page 2 though, as quoted by Roberto :
Some related information was found in an article concerning a Nazi extermination camp and its trouble destroying the corpses (3). Burning gasoline on piles of corpses on the ground did not consume the corpses. Eventually an "expert" was brought in who arranged the bodies on a rack with the corpses that appeared to contain some fat being placed on the bottom of the pile. A good fire beneath the rack caused fat to drip down and burn. The corpses which were thus over the fire instead of on the ground were reduced to ashes.[121]
And lets remind Turnagain of the conclusion made by the person who carried out the experiment :
The findings show that for a ewe, and presumably for a human also, the body can be rather thoroughly consumed by fire by its own fat.....
So how come the person who conducted the experiment wasn't concerned about 30% of the sheep being 'uncremated' when he made the above conclusion ?


Also, was that 3 hour fire 'magic' too, Turnagain ? How did that happen with no fuel ?

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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Huntinger »

The above topic has derailed; the topic is about the status of Treblinka. While it is important to mention any experiments (if they can be called that) and other details the details could be argued into eternity in Siberia or on another thread. I suggest the following which was started some time back.
Could others stop enabling the trolls by responding.

What exactly was the Holocaust? What parts of it do you deny? Why do you refuse to accept it happened?


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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Turnagain »

Lupus wrote:
So maybe Turnagain would like to explain how the fuel requirements for the first experiment has any relevance to what we are discussing here, ie the SECOND experiment . And when he's done that, maybe he can explain why he dishonestly attributed 'several gallons' of gasoline to the SECOND experiment in his post here : viewtopic.php?p=170786#p170786
Lupus apparently can't understand plain English. Here's my quote from that link.
This was after several gallons of gasoline was used as fuel along with the fuel from the car's interior. In neither case was the entire body of the sheep consumed.
Lupus claims that he was only speaking of the 2nd sheep and I'm lying because I spoke of both sheep in the experiment. I suppose that makes sense in holyhoax la-la land.

Lupus then tries to slide past his lie that the fire from both sheep carcasses were extinguished before they could completely burn. He tries to hide his little clanger with a long-winded spiel of "what ifs" and "coulda woulda" about the magic Jew barbeque. Sorry Lupus but you LIED about both sheep carcass fires being extinguished and you can't hide that with a series of unfounded claims about the abilities of the magic Jew barbeque.
Dealt with above
No, you didn't deal with the problem of 30% of the sheep's carcass remaining intact. Your fantasies about the magic Jew barbeque don't explain why the sheep failed to completely cremate itself and your "what ifs" and "coulda woulda" certainly don't provide factual information of how the magic Jew barbeque functioned.
Turnagain fails to prove Finkelstein was lying.
OK, you agree with Finklestein that there were 21 graves containing about 200,000 bodies each for a grand total of over 4 million victims that were gassed and cremated at Treblinka. I don't think that you're going to get much support for those numbers even from the most diehard hoaxers. I suppose that you could go for Nessie's excuse that Finklestein just made a little "mistake". I mean, what's 3 million more or less amongst holyhoaxers?
You claimed Matthes did not corroborate Finkelstein and I proved you wrong, end of. No problem if Rajchmann or Wiernik did not mention gasoline. That doesn't mean gasoline was not used.
I don't know what you're babbling about. No gasoline was used on the cadavers for the Floss method. Some witnesses claimed that gasoline was used on the kindling, others didn't. Steiner was adamant that Floss used only matches to set fire to his little campfires. You are apparently cherry picking Finklestein and Matthes in an attempt to prove a meaningless point.
Turnagain claims draglines exhuming whole bodies is bullshit. I don't know why he's threw this little chestnut into the debate again. Especially considering body parts were witnessed falling from the excavators buckets. This fact even supports Turnagains position to some degree, so this will no doubt cause him to become confused about where to take this argument. Turnagain then claims fat women don't have any fat - he calls it non-existant !! Oh dear, he may want to rethink his position here. The sheep experiment proves how it can be done, but Turnagain can't handle it.
You can't exhume whole bodies with a clamshell bucket. Go here for a video of how a clamshell operates. www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nm1N8Rr72Y Anyone who claims that whole bodies were exhumed using that type of equipment is simply not in touch with reality.

Since very few whole bodies or none at all were exhumed with a clamshell, the so called fat women that were used as the first layer on the magic Jew barbeque didn't exist. Why are you claiming that I said that fat women aren't fat? Why is that so hard for you to understand, Lupus?
I can't see Rajchmann claiming they "retained their skeletal form". However I can see him claim whole charred heads and feet sometimes remained. Maybe you have a different source ?
Yes, I do, Lupus. The carbonized bones that are the remains from a cremation are placed in a small ball mill at crematories and reduced to a granular substance referred to as the cremains. Rajchman refers to carbonized bones being placed on sheets of tin and hammered with wooden mallets to reduce them to the equivalent of cigarette ash. Are you claiming that the skeleton of a cremated cadaver just magically reduces to fine ash just as the result of cremation? It would seem that you are. It also seems as if you have your head permanently lodged in your nether regions.
Turnagain appears to be claiming that just because the experiment fire burnt itself out after 3 hours, then the Treblinka cremations would do the same. This wouldnt be the case due to my already mentioned reasons re scale earlier.
Lupus was caught lying about the experiment with the sheep carcasses and tries to cover it up with fantasies about the fantasy of the magic Jew barbeque. The magic Jew barbeque didn't exist; it's a fantasy. Lupus making up fantasies about a fantasy to cover up his lying is amusing but has little relevance to the real world.
But what Turnagain should be concerned about, is how could a fire last 3 hours when all the additional fuel has been burnt up. Was this the wick effect ?
Damfino and neither do you since you won't pony up the money to buy the rest of the report. In any event, there was still 50 lbs of intact carcass left over after the fire went out. At any rate, wool contains lanolin which is flammable while naked cadavers don't. Your claim that I should pay for your research is a little beyond ludicrous, Lupus.
If you had any common sense you would realise he wasnt talking literally about the blood burning. It was just a turn of phrase . He also mentioned dry branches and dry bushes were used for fuel, but I see you conveniently leave this out. In his shoah interview he says 50 feet, so this could well be what he actually meant. So, another 'liar' claim goes into the trash bin :lol:
That Rajchman wasn't speaking literally is a truly weak suck weasel dodge, Lupus. He described how the heat brought the blood to the surface from as deep as 40 (39.36) feet where it burned like fuel. Czarny also claimed that blood had a chemical in it that rendered it flammable. Rachel Auerbach, the holyhoax historian supported the claims of flammable blood and declared blood to be "a first rate combustible". Your "he didn't really mean it" is a load of horse frocky.

Rajchman claimed that the burning bodies couldn't be approached any closer than 50 feet? I thought it was 50 meters but if I made a mistake, mea culpa. I won't quibble over it. The fact remains that there was a roaring fire not a smouldering pile of bodies.

Yes, Rajchman changed his tale more than once. One time he claimed that twigs the size of toothpicks were the kindling and another time claimed that brush (brushwood?) was used as kindling. Other so-called witnesses claimed other types of kindling was used. Some claimed that gasoline was used on the kindling, others said the opposite. What's your point, Lupus?
Lets remind him what is on page 2 though, as quoted by Roberto :
What hoaxer fantasies would be complete without a quote from Roberto the nutzoid. Lets see a link to those quotes, Lupus. Let's see what Ettling stated as fact and what he supposed may have happened. No hoaxer has gotten around the fact that whole bodies can't be exhumed with a clamshell equipped dragline so start with that, Lupus.
So how come the person who conducted the experiment wasn't concerned about 30% of the sheep being 'uncremated' when he made the above conclusion ?
Ettling wasn't concerned about the 30% intact carcass because he was testing to see if a human body could be burned beyond recognition not to see if it could be completely cremated by it's own body fat. The experiment was originally conducted to find techniques for determining the use of an accelerant in arson cases.

Lupus gives us an endless parade of weasel dodges and lies but can't come up with a rational explanation for how the magic Jew barbeque functioned. He can't even come up with a rational explanation for the origin of the whole bodies. Lupus is reduced to claiming, "If it happened, it was possible". So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.

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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Turnagain »

Huntinger wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:53 pm
The above topic has derailed; the topic is about the status of Treblinka. While it is important to mention any experiments (if they can be called that) and other details the details could be argued into eternity in Siberia or on another thread. I suggest the following which was started some time back.
Could others stop enabling the trolls by responding.

What exactly was the Holocaust? What parts of it do you deny? Why do you refuse to accept it happened?
Works for me. Lupus has his tit wedged firmly in the wringer with his Ettling report and is now frantically weasel dodging and lying in an attempt to get free of it. If Scott or DC want to move it to a more appropriate thread, that's fine with me. However, I'm not willing to let him slobber and drivel unopposed.

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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Nessie »

How is discussing what happened inside TII a derail?

Deniers are repeatedly shown the evidence of gassings, graves and cremations, which they then dismiss with arguments from incredulity and ignorance. They then produce pathetic attempts to evidence it was a transit camp, by conflating limited work transports to daily mass transports and moronic, unevidenced claims that the Jews were just sent to and dumped somewhere in the east, where no one ever noticed them.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 12:39 pm
How is discussing what happened inside TII a derail?
The point of the thread is to examine the evidence, the details can be discussed elsewhere. At the moment the evidence is looking much stronger that this was a part of a customs facility as was the other AR camps.
I wonder if the poster Nessie thinks this was a "little" mistake.
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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Lupus Rothstein »

Turnagain wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:59 pm
Lupus wrote:
So maybe Turnagain would like to explain how the fuel requirements for the first experiment has any relevance to what we are discussing here, ie the SECOND experiment . And when he's done that, maybe he can explain why he dishonestly attributed 'several gallons' of gasoline to the SECOND experiment in his post here : viewtopic.php?p=170786#p170786
Lupus apparently can't understand plain English. Here's my quote from that link.
This was after several gallons of gasoline was used as fuel along with the fuel from the car's interior. In neither case was the entire body of the sheep consumed.
Lupus claims that he was only speaking of the 2nd sheep and I'm lying because I spoke of both sheep in the experiment. I suppose that makes sense in holyhoax la-la land.

Lupus then tries to slide past his lie that the fire from both sheep carcasses were extinguished before they could completely burn. He tries to hide his little clanger with a long-winded spiel of "what ifs" and "coulda woulda" about the magic Jew barbeque. Sorry Lupus but you LIED about both sheep carcass fires being extinguished and you can't hide that with a series of unfounded claims about the abilities of the magic Jew barbeque.
Yep, you tried to inflate the amount of gasoline used for the second experiment by claiming several gallons were used instead of the correct amount of 2.75 gallons. Now you claim you were deliberately referring to both experiments, but why would you do this when the first experiment was irrelevant ?

Turnagain wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:59 pm
No, you didn't deal with the problem of 30% of the sheep's carcass remaining intact. Your fantasies about the magic Jew barbeque don't explain why the sheep failed to completely cremate itself and your "what ifs" and "coulda woulda" certainly don't provide factual information of how the magic Jew barbeque functioned.
The 30% remaining is irrelevant. If 70% of the sheep could be cremated by this 'accidental' experiment , then 100% cremation would be possible if a specialist was involved and the experiment was slightly altered to represent the conditions at Treblinka. This aint no 'woulda coulda' scenario, it's basic logic and common sense, pity you aint got any.
Turnagain wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:59 pm
Turnagain fails to prove Finkelstein was lying.
OK, you agree with Finklestein that there were 21 graves containing about 200,000 bodies each for a grand total of over 4 million victims that were gassed and cremated at Treblinka. I don't think that you're going to get much support for those numbers even from the most diehard hoaxers. I suppose that you could go for Nessie's excuse that Finklestein just made a little "mistake". I mean, what's 3 million more or less amongst holyhoaxers?
Turnagain realises no matter how hard he tries he still can't prove Finkelstein is a liar, so now he goes for plan B and starts accusing me of believing Finkelsteins 21 graves claim. Unfortunately this wont work either, as nowhere did I say that . All I said was Finkelstein thought there were 21 graves, end of. Don't bother with plan C, no doubt it'll be as shit as the other two preceding it.
Turnagain wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:59 pm
You claimed Matthes did not corroborate Finkelstein and I proved you wrong, end of. No problem if Rajchmann or Wiernik did not mention gasoline. That doesn't mean gasoline was not used.
I don't know what you're babbling about. No gasoline was used on the cadavers for the Floss method. Some witnesses claimed that gasoline was used on the kindling, others didn't. Steiner was adamant that Floss used only matches to set fire to his little campfires. You are apparently cherry picking Finklestein and Matthes in an attempt to prove a meaningless point.
Let me explain - slowly for the dopes in the class :
You claimed before that Finkelstein did not corroborate Matthes, but I proved you wrong by informing you both mentioned gasoline, simple. Maybe you call that babbling , but from where I'm from it's quite plain and to the point. You then said I was cherry picking by ignoring Rajcman and Wiernik, but I explained this wasn't the case as it doesnt matter if these two did not mention gasoline, this doesnt prove gasoline was absent. Again, you may refer to this as 'babbling' too, but this is probably just you trying to deflect from your embarrassment at getting all muddled up.

Now you throw some geezer called 'Steiner' into the mix. Tell me, when was he in Treblinka and what was his role there ? Considering he was born in 1938, I look forward very much to how you're gonna squirm and weasel your way through this :lol: :lol:
Turnagain wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:59 pm
Turnagain claims draglines exhuming whole bodies is bullshit. I don't know why he's threw this little chestnut into the debate again. Especially considering body parts were witnessed falling from the excavators buckets. This fact even supports Turnagains position to some degree, so this will no doubt cause him to become confused about where to take this argument. Turnagain then claims fat women don't have any fat - he calls it non-existant !! Oh dear, he may want to rethink his position here. The sheep experiment proves how it can be done, but Turnagain can't handle it.
You can't exhume whole bodies with a clamshell bucket. Go here for a video of how a clamshell operates. www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nm1N8Rr72Y Anyone who claims that whole bodies were exhumed using that type of equipment is simply not in touch with reality.

Since very few whole bodies or none at all were exhumed with a clamshell, the so called fat women that were used as the first layer on the magic Jew barbeque didn't exist. Why are you claiming that I said that fat women aren't fat? Why is that so hard for you to understand, Lupus?
That video is pointless. It doesn't prove how many whole bodies could or couldn't be removed from a grave. You would get a mix of whole bodies and body parts in a clam shell. Simple.
You then claim no whole bodies or very few were exhumed without producing any evidence from witnesses, then you say fat women used on the bottom layer didnt exist, which is contrary to the evidence from witnesses. So basically you're just churning out unsubstantiated nonsense. Another epic fail.

I misread your original post re fat women.
Turnagain wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:59 pm
I can't see Rajchmann claiming they "retained their skeletal form". However I can see him claim whole charred heads and feet sometimes remained. Maybe you have a different source ?
Yes, I do, Lupus. The carbonized bones that are the remains from a cremation are placed in a small ball mill at crematories and reduced to a granular substance referred to as the cremains. Rajchman refers to carbonized bones being placed on sheets of tin and hammered with wooden mallets to reduce them to the equivalent of cigarette ash. Are you claiming that the skeleton of a cremated cadaver just magically reduces to fine ash just as the result of cremation? It would seem that you are. It also seems as if you have your head permanently lodged in your nether regions.
I cant recall me writing about bones magically reducing to ash, so looks like you're getting muddled up again. Ok if you want it your way, I concede that only some 'skeletal bones' were left remaining after the cremations rather than unburnt body parts . It's good of you to concede this point too. You must have realised how poweful those flames were, yes ?
Turnagain wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:59 pm
Turnagain appears to be claiming that just because the experiment fire burnt itself out after 3 hours, then the Treblinka cremations would do the same. This wouldnt be the case due to my already mentioned reasons re scale earlier.
Lupus was caught lying about the experiment with the sheep carcasses and tries to cover it up with fantasies about the fantasy of the magic Jew barbeque. The magic Jew barbeque didn't exist; it's a fantasy. Lupus making up fantasies about a fantasy to cover up his lying is amusing but has little relevance to the real world.
I can't recall me lying about the sheep experiments either. You're really on a roll with all this bullshit aincha ? Turnagain cant even confirm that he believes there would be 30% uncremated corpses at Treblinka, which is what he thinks the experiment has proven. It now looks like he's totally denying the results of the experiment and decided 0% of the bodies would be cremated . Lets see what he says about the magic 3 hour fire :
Turnagain wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:59 pm
But what Turnagain should be concerned about, is how could a fire last 3 hours when all the additional fuel has been burnt up. Was this the wick effect ?
Damfino and neither do you since you won't pony up the money to buy the rest of the report. In any event, there was still 50 lbs of intact carcass left over after the fire went out. At any rate, wool contains lanolin which is flammable while naked cadavers don't. Your claim that I should pay for your research is a little beyond ludicrous, Lupus.
oh dear, he aint got a scooby doo about this 3 hour fire without any fuel . Looks like it was a magic sheep barbeque then . So why can sheep have magic bbq's but Jews can't ? ;) ;)
Turnagain wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:59 pm
If you had any common sense you would realise he wasnt talking literally about the blood burning. It was just a turn of phrase . He also mentioned dry branches and dry bushes were used for fuel, but I see you conveniently leave this out. In his shoah interview he says 50 feet, so this could well be what he actually meant. So, another 'liar' claim goes into the trash bin :lol:
That Rajchman wasn't speaking literally is a truly weak suck weasel dodge, Lupus. He described how the heat brought the blood to the surface from as deep as 40 (39.36) feet where it burned like fuel. Czarny also claimed that blood had a chemical in it that rendered it flammable. Rachel Auerbach, the holyhoax historian supported the claims of flammable blood and declared blood to be "a first rate combustible". Your "he didn't really mean it" is a load of horse frocky.

Rajchman claimed that the burning bodies couldn't be approached any closer than 50 feet? I thought it was 50 meters but if I made a mistake, mea culpa. I won't quibble over it. The fact remains that there was a roaring fire not a smouldering pile of bodies.

Yes, Rajchman changed his tale more than once. One time he claimed that twigs the size of toothpicks were the kindling and another time claimed that brush (brushwood?) was used as kindling. Other so-called witnesses claimed other types of kindling was used. Some claimed that gasoline was used on the kindling, others said the opposite. What's your point, Lupus?
Rajchmann wrote "meters" in his book but said "feet" in his interview.

Actually, I originally thought you were referring to when Rajchmann said this :

"The blood of some quarter million people began to flare" , which sounds very much like a figure of speech. But following this Rajchman also says (as you mention) "The blood came up to the surface and burned as if it were fuel". Unfortunately for you this event was also confirmed by your Nazi friend Franz Stangl, the camp commandant , but he attributed the spectacle to 'the gas from the corpses'. Here is his full quote :
When the cremation grates were there, fire was kindled in the corpse pits to cremate the corpses on top… such a fire in one grave resulted from the gas from the corpses. Big tall flames shot up and there was an enormous mushroom cloud.
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... speak.html

Both Rajchmann and Stangl were referring to one of the graves catching fire , with Rajchmann believing it was blood and Stangl referring to bodily gasses , most probably from decomposition. So again, this is not a case of Rajchmann lying, if you want to claim otherwise you need to prove that Rajchmann knew blood was not flammable. All we have here is a grave catching fire and Rajchmann believing it must be the blood that was acting as fuel, when it appears the true source was the acids from the decomposing bodies. Unless maybe your mate Stangl was lying too, yeah ?

My point was to debunk your claim that Rajchmann was lying. Which I have done. As for his description of the fuel, no problem here at all as he obviously means dry branches/bushes. Twigs are virtually the same as branches. You might want to dispute that, but do it with somebody else, I aint interested in this pointless nit-picking.

Turnagain wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:59 pm
Lets remind him what is on page 2 though, as quoted by Roberto :
What hoaxer fantasies would be complete without a quote from Roberto the nutzoid. Lets see a link to those quotes, Lupus. Let's see what Ettling stated as fact and what he supposed may have happened. No hoaxer has gotten around the fact that whole bodies can't be exhumed with a clamshell equipped dragline so start with that, Lupus.
The quote was from HC blog here : http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _8385.html
See note 120 121. Roberto quotes it in full so he would have had access to the second page, probably before they started charging for it. He used it in his debates with the crank Jannson, who didnt dispute it, so i'm sorry to inform you that RM didnt invent it, which is what you appear to be suggesting.

You haven't even proven that whole bodies cant be exhumed , so your claim that 'no hoaxer gettin around the fact they can't' sounds rather premature :oops: :oops:
Turnagain wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:59 pm
So how come the person who conducted the experiment wasn't concerned about 30% of the sheep being 'uncremated' when he made the above conclusion ?
Ettling wasn't concerned about the 30% intact carcass because he was testing to see if a human body could be burned beyond recognition not to see if it could be completely cremated by it's own body fat. The experiment was originally conducted to find techniques for determining the use of an accelerant in arson cases.


Your first sentence doesnt make any sense as an answer. Just face facts, Ettling concluded the following :

The findings show that for a ewe, and presumably for a human also, the body can be rather thoroughly consumed by fire by its own fat.....

This is despite 30% of the sheep being un cremated. Are you saying Ettling was wrong in his conclusion ? If so how are you more qualified than him to come to such an opinion ?
Turnagain wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:59 pm

Lupus gives us an endless parade of weasel dodges and lies but can't come up with a rational explanation for how the magic Jew barbeque functioned. He can't even come up with a rational explanation for the origin of the whole bodies. Lupus is reduced to claiming, "If it happened, it was possible". So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
If Turnagain cant locate the rational explanation amongst all this then its cos he's deliberately denying the facts, backed up by experiments.

What is turnagain on about 'origin of the bodies' ? And where did I claim "if it happened it was possible" ? I've always suspected when turnagain realises he's up shit creek he'll just revert to saying any old shit, and this just proves me right :roll:

My last line on my previous post was this : ( subsequently omitted by turnagain)
Also, was that 3 hour fire 'magic' too, Turnagain ? How did that happen with no fuel ?
Turnagain already made it clear he's a bit stuck over this. He realises how inconvenient it is for him . Here we have some proven 'magic' in action , yet he don't want to go anywhere near it. Now why would this be ? :?

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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Huntinger »

Lupus wrote:The findings show that for a ewe, and presumably for a human also, the body can be rather thoroughly consumed by fire by its own fat.....
Totally false, cremation of sheep, just to remove water takes 100MJ of energy; the amount of fat at best could supply only about 5% of that, perhaps a little more if fat.


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Re: Treblinka - transit camp or extermination camp?

Post by Turnagain »

Lupus wrote:
Yep, you tried to inflate the amount of gasoline used for the second experiment by claiming several gallons were used instead of the correct amount of 2.75 gallons.
I plainly stated that several gallons of gasoline (17 quarts) were poured over the carcasses in the experiment. Lupus declares that he was only talking about one carcass which he somehow translates into I was lying about several gallons of gasoline being poured over the sheep carcasses. A fine example of holyhoaxer logic.
The 30% remaining is irrelevant. If 70% of the sheep could be cremated by this 'accidental' experiment , then 100% cremation would be possible if a specialist was involved and the experiment was slightly altered to represent the conditions at Treblinka. This aint no 'woulda coulda' scenario, it's basic logic and common sense, pity you aint got any.
Lupus posts an excellent example of the non sequitur. 70% of the sheep carcass burned so 100% of the human cadavers burned. Lupus then goes on with a "what if" scenario and finishes up with his "coulda woulda". He then declares that anyone with "common sense" would accept his little "what if" and "coulda woulda" shitshow.
Let me explain - slowly for the dopes in the class :
You claimed before that Finkelstein did not corroborate Matthes, but I proved you wrong by informing you both mentioned gasoline, simple. Maybe you call that babbling , but from where I'm from it's quite plain and to the point. You then said I was cherry picking by ignoring Rajcman and Wiernik, but I explained this wasn't the case as it doesnt matter if these two did not mention gasoline, this doesnt prove gasoline was absent.
Here's the quote from Finklestein.
A grate was set on fire with a little amount of wood or rags soaked in petrol and then the corpses burnt by themselves.
IOW, wood was used as kindling OR "rags soaked in petrol". Lupus is apparently claiming that the wood was "soaked" in gasoline like the rags. Matthes testified:
Brushwood was put under the rails. The wood was doused with petrol.
Once again Lupus has his tit wedged firmly in the wringer. In any event some wood or brushwood or some rags soaked in petrol served as the only fuel available to totally cremate 2,000 to 3,000 cadavers lying on 6 inches high railroad rails. The pylons that the rails rested on was described as being either 50 cm or 70 cm high. Ettling's experiment is apples to oranges with no real description of how far the sheep carcass was suspended from the char and ash. Was the carcass in fact in contact with the char and ash? An unanswerable question.

Lupus then goes on to explain why it didn't matter that Wiernik and Rajchman didn't claim that gasoline was used to kindle the cadavers. Since they didn't say anything about gasoline that meant that Wiernik and Rajchman COULDA meant that gasoline WAS used. Aha! That old holyhoaxer standby, "coulda woulda". Lupus forgets that Wiernik said that no kindling was used to set the cadavers ablaze.

At any rate, the corroboration of Finklestein by Matthes is equivocal at best while Wiernik and Rajchman fall under the well worn holyhoaxer rubric of "coulda woulda". Perhaps Lupus will apply some of his famous "common sense" to the problem.

Well, I have some chores to attend to so will leave the wacky world of holyhoax la-la land and return later.

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