Where did they go

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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:14 pm
Nessie has the witnesses who claim to have left Treblinka and lies about Zabecki witnessing them doing so.
I have not claimed Zabecki witnessed any of the transports that have known witnesses on them.

You then dodge how me supposedly not being able to evidence c7000 left TII is unacceptable, but it is fine you cannot evidence c850,000 left the camp :roll:
Other than than, that, zip, zero, nada.
Your standard dodge of dismissing evidence and then lying there is no evidence.
You've given the names of alleged witnesses and weasel dodged what they said. Just two names and quote what they said and you can't do that. All you have is some bullshit from holyhoax la-la land.
You have weasel dodged evidencing they were at TII. Show me from their statements something that identifies they were in TII and not TI or Malkinia.

In the thread about witness I have been naming and quoting witnesses and reminding you of the numerous times we have discussed their evidence. In this thread you dodge;

It is physically impossible for the Nazis to have done what you allege they did. It is physically impossible to have accommodated 1.274 million people from the AR camps, by the end of 1942, without that leaving any evidence.

The evidence of very limited transports of some workers from Belzec, Sobibor and TII is the exception that proves the rule. When people left the AR camps, at least some evidence, from an occasional witness or document resulted. You demand that despite only 1% of arrivals at TII being evidenced to have left, we should believe the other 99% also left.

If no one had been gassed at an AR camp or in an A-B krema, then there would have been an extra c2.5 million people in Nazi camps by the end of the war. Instead of finding camps packed with prisoners, in 1945 the Soviets found mostly empty camps and the western Allies found a few hundred thousand, the largest number being 60,000 at Bergen-Belsen.

The la-la land hoax is denial's demand we believe what it cannot evidence at all, from any source.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Huntinger
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Where they went

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:16 pm
It is physically impossible to have accommodated 1.274 million people from the AR camps, by the end of 1942, without that leaving any evidence.
This poster like always is stuck on a scenario that did not exist. There is a thread showing correctly that the AR camps did not exist but were always referred to as Einsatz Reinhardt; Prudent Regret has conclusively proven that Einsatz Reinhardt was an operation to sequester wealth; despite this the poster Nessie continues with the debunked scenario.

That aside the 1.274 million people was mentioned documents, twice: the Höfle telegram and the Korherr report.
Korherr report:
Image
It is the first figures above which are the real purpose of this thread; 1.45 million juden evicted to the Russian East; many who were arrested by the Soviets, executed and or transported to Siberia where an estimated 75% perished.

The poster Nessie has concentrated on the second lot of figures; the 1.274 million; it is this that will be addressed.

From the data from Korherr 2,869,159 juden were rounded up in Poland, living in the General Government area. (This closely aligns with Sannings estimation of jüdische population of 2.7 million in Poland.) Fifty one percent of this number of juden in the area were evicted into Soviet Territory, most likely through the customs points to gather departure tax.

Forty four percent were left behind (1.274 million) where they transited through the camps of the General Government; there were >450 camps these people could have transited through which they did according to Dutch juden and many many others. (Surry en Suze Polak).

Korherr has made it quite clear that these people were a mobile work force transiting from one area to another as work was required. It was clearly so commonplace as to attract little unwarranted attention, similar to any bus today.
The Höfle telegram was a preliminary report to Korherr, which can be seen below:
Image
Translated this is:
Image
The message is going to Eichmann through Heim in Berlin but it is also going to Krakow where there is a 14 day report of Einsatz (operation) Reinhard as well as the grand total until December 42, which is also where the 1.274 million come in.

There are 4 data collection points for this operation, designated as L,B,S & T most likely railway stations; this is also over a minimum period of 3 years 2 months (October 1939 or later up to December 31, 1942:). This means on average over those 4 data collection points there are 1100 people per day or 275 per data collection point, which is hardly taxing to count.
The railway stations Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, Lupkow had customs offices and command posts nearby to effect the eviction of juden.

This suggests that after being rejected for eviction into the Soviet Union the people were turned around, counted and sent to various camps for work placements, moving from place to place.


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Re: Where they went

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:15 pm
The poster Nessie has concentrated on the second lot of figures; the 1.274 million; it is this that will be addressed.

.....

Forty four percent were left behind (1.274 million) where they transited through the camps of the General Government; there were >450 camps these people could have transited through which they did according to Dutch juden and many many others. (Surry en Suze Polak).

....
You have no evidence that those 1.274 million people went onwards to other camps after they had arrived at the camps at L, B, S and T. The vast majority of those people disappeared inside the camps, the evidence trail form their movements ends there.

You are just cobbling together information you do not really understand, in particular the chronology of events, to try and smoke screen your lack of evidence that those people were not gassed and the Nazis accommodated them elsewhere.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where they went

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Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:34 pm
You have no evidence that those 1.274 million people went onwards to other camps after they had arrived at the camps at L, B, S and T. The vast majority of those people disappeared inside the camps, the evidence trail form their movements ends there.
The evidence is in the Korherr report; he states specifically the following:
the following numbers transited through the camps in the General Government
I am sure he had more information at his disposal than the Höfle intercept. There is no where that one can infer that the letters on the Höfle telegram refer to camps, merely designated data collection points.; to suggest these are camps is a leap of faith. All of these letters coincide exactly with railway stations, near customs facilities. All were GG exit points, except Belzec which lost its status after Barbarossa.

I am sure that Höfle was aware there were >450 konzentrationslager in the GG to comfortably accommodate these 1.274 million and provide sufficient work to stop them from getting bored.

The poster cannot identify who was in the 1.274 million or who was evicted. On this information or lack of it there is an assumption there was an evidence trail for each individual. It appears there is no evidence trail to begin with on that note it is not possible to infer there was an end to it.


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
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Re: Where they went

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:47 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:34 pm
You have no evidence that those 1.274 million people went onwards to other camps after they had arrived at the camps at L, B, S and T. The vast majority of those people disappeared inside the camps, the evidence trail form their movements ends there.
The evidence is in the Korherr report; he states specifically the following:
the following numbers transited through the camps in the General Government
I am sure he had more information at his disposal than the Höfle intercept. There is no where that one can infer that the letters on the Höfle telegram refer to camps, merely designated data collection points.; to suggest these are camps is a leap of faith. All of these letters coincide exactly with railway stations, near customs facilities. All were GG exit points, except Belzec which lost its status after Barbarossa.

I am sure that Höfle was aware there were >450 konzentrationslager in the GG to comfortably accommodate these 1.274 million and provide sufficient work to stop them from getting bored.
Korherr was rather vague and he did not name any destination. Neither did Hofle, nor any other document. That is the issue you have dodged, there is no evidence that the mass transports continued inwards. They ended at the camps.
The poster cannot identify who was in the 1.274 million or who was evicted. On this information or lack of it there is an assumption there was an evidence trail for each individual. It appears there is no evidence trail to begin with on that note it is not possible to infer there was an end to it.
Korherr said about the 1.274 million; "The evacuation of the Jews superseded the Jewish emigration, at least in the territory of the Reich. This evacuation was prepared after the prohibition of Jewish emigration in autumn 1941 on a large scale and was carried out extensively in the entire Reich territory in 1942."

Ghetto records show mass transports to the camps. The 1.274 million were Jews from ghettos that were being cleared and closed down.

You flounder as you cannot evidence those people went elsewhere, which shows denial up as fake history.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where they went

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:10 pm
Ghetto records show mass transports to the camps. The 1.274 million were Jews from ghettos that were being cleared and closed down.
There is no information that people departed any transport at Treblinka I, let alone Treblinka II. There is no information that the 1.274 million were from Ghettos, another assumption. All statistical information if vague but often accurate; there is no reason to disbelieve Korherr. It is a fact that all of the 450 or so camps were crawling with the chosen ones.

The information given by witnesses in databases is useless as in the case of Ciechanow juden, these people allegedly went to Russia, Czerwony bor, Treblinka and Auschwitz at the same time, all eighty thousand of them. The rest of the data base is no better. There are multiple entries for the same person with different spelling.

With the appalling information given, there can be no starting point to their journey let alone discuss an end point. This is why Auschwitz got over the problem by tattooing numbers on their arms; these people are slipperier than two tarts jelly wrestling.

An appalling example is the waybill document present on Wiki, reproduced below.
Image
German waybill prepared by Generaldirektion der Ostbahn on 3 August 1942 for shuttle train No. 548 departing from Warszawa Gdańska station to Treblinka beginning 6 August 1942 onward; exact timetable. Purpose: daily deportations; returning empty. No number of prisoners specified

This does not state Treblinka II, only Treblinka the railway station from Malkinia, which is on the Malkinia Siedlce railway line. It is likely this was a transport of something to the arbeitslager Treblinka which would have had daily transports of Häftlinge as well as food and other provisions. Konzentrationslagers could not run without daily supplies. Any prison in the world today would have daily supplies of goods and new prisoners; being in a remote location the arbeitslager had one main means of efficient supplies, rolling stock or train transports.

When there is some real information then put it on the board to peruse, otherwise give it a miss.
Image
The blood of some quarter of a million people began to flare, and thus burned for a night and a day. The whole camp administration came to look upon this marvel, gazing with satisfaction at the blaze. The blood came up to the surface and burned as if it were fuel.


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

Chil Rajchman wrote:
The blood of some quarter of a million people began to flare, and thus burned for a night and a day. The whole camp administration came to look upon this marvel, gazing with satisfaction at the blaze. The blood came up to the surface and burned as if it were fuel.
That is the reason why Nessie refuses to quote his hoaxer witnesses. He excuses such fanciful lies as "hyperbole" or "exaggerations". He fails to mention that it is exactly this type of testimony that got innocent men executed.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Turnagain wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:45 am
Chil Rajchman wrote:
The blood of some quarter of a million people began to flare, and thus burned for a night and a day. The whole camp administration came to look upon this marvel, gazing with satisfaction at the blaze. The blood came up to the surface and burned as if it were fuel.
That is the reason why Nessie refuses to quote his hoaxer witnesses. He excuses such fanciful lies as "hyperbole" or "exaggerations". He fails to mention that it is exactly this type of testimony that got innocent men executed.
If it happened it must be true. :mrgreen:
Image


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
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Re: Where they went

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:20 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:10 pm
Ghetto records show mass transports to the camps. The 1.274 million were Jews from ghettos that were being cleared and closed down.
There is no information that people departed any transport at Treblinka I, let alone Treblinka II.
There is information on the numbers transported back out of TI, which I posted before;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... camps.html

"The average number of people detained in the camp was between 1000 – 1200 inmates, but throughout the camps existence more than 20,000 passed through the camp..."

The source is likely to be in the State Archive Lublin.
There is no information that the 1.274 million were from Ghettos, another assumption.
There are numerous sources of ghetto transports to the death camps;

Lodz Ghetto to Chelmno;
https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/1490/

Dutch transports to Sobibor;
https://www.sobibor.org/en/the-nineteen-transports/

Ghetto transports to TII;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... ation_camp

Ghetto transports to Belzec
https://www.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/belzec/bel004.html

A transport from Thereseinstadt to Treblinka
https://www.holocaust.cz/en/transport/3 ... treblinka/
All statistical information if vague but often accurate; there is no reason to disbelieve Korherr. It is a fact that all of the 450 or so camps were crawling with the chosen ones.
There is no evidence to back up the claim that the majority of those 1.274 million people continued their journey onwards from the camps at L, B, S and T.
The information given by witnesses in databases is useless as in the case of Ciechanow juden, these people allegedly went to Russia, Czerwony bor, Treblinka and Auschwitz at the same time, all eighty thousand of them. The rest of the data base is no better. There are multiple entries for the same person with different spelling.

With the appalling information given, there can be no starting point to their journey let alone discuss an end point. This is why Auschwitz got over the problem by tattooing numbers on their arms; these people are slipperier than two tarts jelly wrestling.

An appalling example is the waybill document present on Wiki, reproduced below.
Image
German waybill prepared by Generaldirektion der Ostbahn on 3 August 1942 for shuttle train No. 548 departing from Warszawa Gdańska station to Treblinka beginning 6 August 1942 onward; exact timetable. Purpose: daily deportations; returning empty. No number of prisoners specified

This does not state Treblinka II, only Treblinka the railway station from Malkinia, which is on the Malkinia Siedlce railway line. It is likely this was a transport of something to the arbeitslager Treblinka which would have had daily transports of Häftlinge as well as food and other provisions. Konzentrationslagers could not run without daily supplies. Any prison in the world today would have daily supplies of goods and new prisoners; being in a remote location the arbeitslager had one main means of efficient supplies, rolling stock or train transports.

When there is some real information then put it on the board to peruse, otherwise give it a miss.
Image
The blood of some quarter of a million people began to flare, and thus burned for a night and a day. The whole camp administration came to look upon this marvel, gazing with satisfaction at the blaze. The blood came up to the surface and burned as if it were fuel.
Your attempts to ridicule the evidence for gassing does not act as evidence that those who arrived were not gassed, and so they then left the camp.

The Warsaw shuttle train record sent people to TII and empty trains returned. The only camp in the Treblinka area that was taking daily transports was TII. Stroop specifically referred to transports from Warsaw to TII. There is a lot of documentary and witness evidence to prove mass transports on an almost daily basis to the camps at TII, Sobibor, Belzec and Chelmno. There is no corresponding evidence to show anything other than a tiny number of people subsequently left the camps.

You are trying to promote fake history by claiming mass transports back out of the camps, which you cannot evidence.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:45 am
Chil Rajchman wrote:
The blood of some quarter of a million people began to flare, and thus burned for a night and a day. The whole camp administration came to look upon this marvel, gazing with satisfaction at the blaze. The blood came up to the surface and burned as if it were fuel.
That is the reason why Nessie refuses to quote his hoaxer witnesses. He excuses such fanciful lies as "hyperbole" or "exaggerations".
I have quoted Rajchman on numerous occasions and he is clearly using hyperbole there. Your refusal to acknowledge that hyperbole is used by witnesses is wrong.
He fails to mention that it is exactly this type of testimony that got innocent men executed.
You fail to mention that those executed admitted their crimes. You fail to mention that no Nazi ever claimed an AR camp was a transit camp. You fail to mention that most Nazis were not executed and received light sentences or were acquitted.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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