Where did they go

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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:49 pm
Nessie wrote:
No, all you have done is suggest that one mass transport coulda come from TII, because the Jewish witness (who normally you dismiss as liars) said "Treblinka". You have not evidenced what happened inside TII instead of mass gassings.
Sam Kulawy and Helen Schwartz both testified that trainloads of deportees left T-II. You have shown no proof that either one of them was mistaken or lying.
I have shown you evidence why they left one of the other camps. You have shown no evidence that they were accommodated at TII. For a start, where were they accommodated?
Smaller groups from 100-500 also left T-II. You claim that they were "selected for work" although none of the deportees states that they were "selected for work". Just more "what if" and "coulda woulda" from Nessie.
You are acting as if I am quoting the witnesses. They were selected and then sent to Majdanek to work.
Chil Rajchman, Yankel Wiernik, et al. told obvious lies about their time in T-II. Tales of burning blood, hermetically sealed steam/gas/vacuum chambers and the magic Jew barbeque. The T-II witnesses gave cogent, rational accounts of their stays in T-II. There are Jews who lie and Jews who tell the truth. Your claim that I call all Jews liars is bullshit.
No, I said VAST MAJORITY not ALL.
Uh-huh, before the Hunt video it was show where anyone transited through T-II. Now it's the "vast majority".
Er, OK, so why do you claim TII was a transit camp?
Because your question was, "Why is it irrational to ask you to evidence that daily mass departure transports also took place?". Trains didn't operate 7 days a week even according to your wiki propaganda re-post. "Daily" would mean at least one train per day from July 22, 1942 until August 3, 1943. Claiming that to be so is irrational. What don't you understand about that?
You are playing semantics. There is only evidence that about 1% of the trains that arrived full of people at TII, then left containing people. You are looking for excuses to dodge that you demand we believe the other 99% also contained people and you act as if it is irrational to ask for evidence of the 99%.
I have shown you documentary and witness evidence that on the vast majority of days trains arrived, full of people and then either empty trains, or trains carrying property left. Or are you quibbling that I said daily to describe what happened on 90% of the days the camp was running?
IOW, "daily mass departure transports" is a figment of your imagination.
It is reasonable, that when trains arrived and departed on over 90% of the days the camp operated, to paraphrase that as daily. You have tried to pass off transports that if averaged, left the camp once a fortnight, as mass departures supposedly making TII a transit camp.
Why do you believe that other camps accommodated c840,000 people, when the only records that can be found are for c400 at Majdanek?
It's known that at least 12,000 to 15,000 deportees left T-II for which there are records for only 412 arriving at Majdanek. What evidence do you have that ~850,000 weren't transited through T-II?
The lack of evidence from any source that they were. No witnesses, no documents, no where for them to be accommodated.

Your claim that c400 records at Majdanek is proof that c840,000 were transported back out of TII is bizarre and deeply flawed.
Since it's been proven that T-II wasn't an extermination facility then the deportees had to be sent somewhere since they couldn't be accommodated in T-II. The answer to your wail of, "Where did they gooooo?" is quite simple. They went to other camps or work sites.
You have provided no evidence to prove what did happen inside TII. You rely on logical fallacies to support your claim of no gassings. At least you accept that c840,000 cannot be accommodated there. There is also no evidence they all left, but those who were transported (2-3000) did leave evidence. That is why;

Yet again you dodge explaining how it is physically possible for the Nazis to have transported, fed, clothed and accommodated c840,000 from TII, over 13 months in 1942-3, till the end of the war in 1945, without leaving any witness, documentary or physical evidence. How did the Nazis manage to do that?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Huntinger
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Arthur Butz puts it nicely when he says:
If there were about three million Jews in Poland before the war then,
when one takes into account the numbers, which fled to the Soviet Union in
1939, those who were deported by the Russians in 1940, those who managed
to slip into such countries as Slovakia or Hungary, and those who might have
perished in epidemics, we see that there were at most two million Polish Jews
in scattered ghettos in German controlled territory, and that the greater number
of these people had been sent to territory considered Soviet after the war.

Die soziale Heimatpartei
𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

Amt IV

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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:15 pm
Nessie wrote:
The timeline shows its sources, it is collating evidence gathered from ghettos that sent transports as they closed down. The Nazi documents from Hofle and Korherr confirm that at least 713,555 had been sent to TII by the end of 1942. The Ganzenmuller Letter from July 1942 reported a daily transport of 5000 Jews was being sent from Warsaw, via Malkinia to Treblinka and that there were also mass transports to Belzec and Sobibor (translation here)
http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/pic/ ... eller2.jpg
Death Camps is also the site that claims that the giant mass graves were both dug and stockpiled by the Menck and Hambrock draglines. You need to find a source a little more reliable than one known for specious bullshit.
https://www.holocausthistoricalsociety. ... ments.html

Use that source then, it is the same letter. It describes daily transports.
Now, where is your evidence of regular mass transports of thousands of Jews back out of TII to other camps? The answer you dodge, is that there is no such evidence, but bizarrely you demand we believe that happened.
You've been given proof that at least two (2) trainloads of deportees left T-II along with lesser numbers of other deportees who may or may not have been grouped in a trainload.
You have not proved they left TII, you have shown no evidence to back up your claim.
Records exist at only one camp, Majdanek, for 412 deportees.
Stop dodging answering why only camp has records of arrivals from TII?
You post no names or quotes for your claim that the trains left T-II empty. Is the partisan, Zabecki, your source for the claim that all trains left T-II empty?
No, the Warsaw Shuttle train records recorded empty trains returning to Warsaw and other Polish rail workers such as Stephan Kucharek witnessed empty trains leaving the camp.

Then all the ghettos that recorded mass transports to TII, they were being emptied, so it was empty trains that arrived to take the next transport of people from the ghetto to the camp.
If 12,000-15,000 could leave T-II with no corresponding records then the remaining 840,000 could also have done so.
It was 2-3000 who left c400 records and witnesses and a place that could have accommodated them. It is not possible for the rest to have left leaving no evidence at all.

Yet again you dodge explaining how it is physically possible for the Nazis to have transported, fed, clothed and accommodated c840,000 from TII, over 13 months in 1942-3, till the end of the war in 1945, without leaving any witness, documentary or physical evidence. How did the Nazis manage to do that?
For rational people it's been proven that T-II wasn't an extermination facility. Those who dwell in holyhoax la-la land stamp their feet and shriek, "Is too, is too!". So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
Your arguments are logical fallacies. Rational people do no rely on logical fallacies. You have no evidence to present to show what did happen.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Nessie
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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:56 am
Arthur Butz puts it nicely when he says:
If there were about three million Jews in Poland before the war then,
when one takes into account the numbers, which fled to the Soviet Union in
1939, those who were deported by the Russians in 1940, those who managed
to slip into such countries as Slovakia or Hungary, and those who might have
perished in epidemics, we see that there were at most two million Polish Jews
in scattered ghettos in German controlled territory, and that the greater number
of these people had been sent to territory considered Soviet after the war.
You are dodging evidencing what happened to the "two million Polish Jews in scattered ghettos in German controlled territory". Your claim is that the Nazis sent them to the AR camps, where they were then released to live and work in territory that the EG had been clearing of Jews, partisans and communists, as they were the enemy of the Nazis. That is as stupid as claiming the earth is flat.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:05 am
You are dodging evidencing what happened to the "two million Polish Jews in scattered ghettos in German controlled territory". Your claim is that the Nazis sent them to the AR camps, where they were then released to live and work in territory that the EG had been clearing of Jews, partisans and communists, as they were the enemy of the Nazis. That is as stupid as claiming the earth is flat.
The evidence to points to the Russians annexing the population post war and sequestering a good majority behind the iron curtain. The memoirs of Peter Lantos and mother being told this by a Soviet Officer was enough for them to escape the clutches of the Bolsheviks; other people have told similar stories. The territory either side of the old Soviet Reich border well away from Einsatzgruppe activity was suitable for farm work. Food is a major concern in times of war; the Reich would use all personnel and land available for this purpose. This would have been quite a harmonious enterprise at least until the tide of the war changed. Known potential Soviet collaborators would have been dealt with at Czerwony bor or Ciechanow castle, other untrustworthy would have been confined to camps such as Auschwitz.

Die soziale Heimatpartei
𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie does a "what if" Kulawy's train left Malkinia but has no proof that happened. Oh well, it "coulda" happened.

Nobody said that they were "selected for work" except Nessie. Oh well, it "coulda" happened.

Then we have witnesses who claim to have spent the night in Treblinka, spent several days in Treblinka and one who said that he spent no more than eight days in Treblinka but Nessie claims that there were no accommodations at Treblinka. Oh well, it "coulda" been that way. Nessie then demands that I prove that accommodations existed at Treblinka.
Nessie wrote:
You are playing semantics.
Uh-huh, your "daily mass transports" fell apart and now I'm "playing semantics".
There is only evidence that about 1% of the trains that arrived full of people at TII, then left containing people.
Uh-huh, and there are records for about 2% of the deportees known to have left T-II but that 2% is conclusive evidence while the 1% doesn't mean jack squat. The significance of percentages depends entirely on Nessie's agenda.
The lack of evidence from any source that they were. No witnesses, no documents, no where for them to be accommodated.
There are witnesses for at least 12,000-15,000 leaving T-II for Auschwitz, Majdanek, Budzyn and numerous other camps. There's only documentation for 412 of those 12,000-15,000. Huntinger has stated that the Germans operated 708 different camps in the General Government. You have given no valid reason why the ~850,000 couldn't have been sent to any of those camps. You have NO valid evidence that Jews were steamed/gassed/vacuumed in hermetically sealed chambers, buried in an unknown number of giant mass graves, exhumed by some mystery machine and cremated on the magic Jew barbeque. You have nothing but "what ifs" and "coulda woulda" to support your lame claims. What proof do you have that the ~850,000 weren't transited through T-II?

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:46 am
Nessie does a "what if" Kulawy's train left Malkinia but has no proof that happened. Oh well, it "coulda" happened.
Your claim that he coulda stayed in TII for 8 days without noticing the train station and not having anywhere to sleep as there was only a couple of barracks for a few hundred Sonderkommados, is nonsense. You ignore that there is a document showing a transport from Malkinia to A-B, but there is no documents recording transports from TII.
Nobody said that they were "selected for work" except Nessie. Oh well, it "coulda" happened.
What did the witnesses say they did when they went to Majdanek? The answer is work. According to you they "coulda" gone to Malkinia for a rest at the expense of the Nazis. Since when did the Nazis provide food and accommodation in return for no work?
Then we have witnesses who claim to have spent the night in Treblinka, spent several days in Treblinka and one who said that he spent no more than eight days in Treblinka but Nessie claims that there were no accommodations at Treblinka. Oh well, it "coulda" been that way. Nessie then demands that I prove that accommodations existed at Treblinka.
It is your claim they were accommodated inside TII, so show me where they were accommodated. Your claim they "coulda" been accommodated there, despite the lack of barracks is bizarre.
Nessie wrote:
You are playing semantics.
Uh-huh, your "daily mass transports" fell apart and now I'm "playing semantics".
When transports arrived on over 90% of the days TII functioned, it is reasonable to call that daily transports.
There is only evidence that about 1% of the trains that arrived full of people at TII, then left containing people.
Uh-huh, and there are records for about 2% of the deportees known to have left T-II but that 2% is conclusive evidence while the 1% doesn't mean jack squat. The significance of percentages depends entirely on Nessie's agenda.
You correctly point out that a few bits of bone found on the surface of the ground at TII does not prove it was a death camp. You are wrong to claim that no more than 1% of arrivals subsequently left TII is proof it was a transit camp. There are no records to show 2% of arrivals left the camp.
The lack of evidence from any source that they were. No witnesses, no documents, no where for them to be accommodated.
There are witnesses for at least 12,000-15,000 leaving T-II for Auschwitz, Majdanek, Budzyn and numerous other camps.
Evidence that claim. Go through each witness and tally how many they said they left the camp with and which camp they went to from TII.
There's only documentation for 412 of those 12,000-15,000. Huntinger has stated that the Germans operated 708 different camps in the General Government. You have given no valid reason why the ~850,000 couldn't have been sent to any of those camps.
The valid reason is that there is no documentary or witness evidence to any transports to any of those 708 camps. Why should I believe what you cannot evidence?
You have NO valid evidence that Jews were steamed/gassed/vacuumed in hermetically sealed chambers, buried in an unknown number of giant mass graves, exhumed by some mystery machine and cremated on the magic Jew barbeque. You have nothing but "what ifs" and "coulda woulda" to support your lame claims. What proof do you have that the ~850,000 weren't transited through T-II?
It is physically impossible for the Nazis to have transported, fed, clothed and accommodated so many people without leaving any evidence. The absence of evidence of such transports is evidence they did not happen. Then there is the evidence of various Polish rail workers who state that empty trains left the camp. Then there is the evidence of documents such as the Warsaw Shuttle Train record that stated empty trains returned to Warsaw. Then there is the evidence of ghettos being emptied to TII, so transports full of people left the ghettos, but no one returned.

Yet again you dodge explaining how it is physically possible for the Nazis to have transported, fed, clothed and accommodated c840,000 from TII, over 13 months in 1942-3, till the end of the war in 1945, without leaving any witness, documentary or physical evidence. How did the Nazis manage to do that?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Where did they go? Why aren't their remains in the places claimed?

Post by been-there »

.
So, yeah, ‘where did they go’?

I know where one 'useless-eater' Jewish child and his parents from the Lodz ghetto went.
I once met him.

He gives talks as an ‘eye-witness’ to 'THE Holocaust'.
He is presented as a 'survivor' on the lecture circuit to school children.
This person who I met and talked with is called Tobias Rawet and you can see a brief summary of him and his message to school children here.

You can read my recollection of our short discussion in the links mentioned here:
been-there wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:27 pm
the Donahue Show demonstrated very clearly for me when I first saw it, what the actual problem was then AND STILL IS:
1. that so-called "Holocaust-survivor's" are believed and defended whatever ludicrous, defamatory and hate-filled rubbish they spout,
and
2. rigorous, analytical, reasonable investigation and revision is demonised even by people who claim to represent the scientific empirical model.

That understanding gained then remains unchanged. As we witnessed here when I related my own tactful, respectful and polite questioning of the 'H-survivor' lecturer Tobias Rawet.
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... wet#p42513
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... 160#p42520
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... 170#p42545

Unreasonable abusers like Bernard and Hovis first attacked him and his testimony, because they didn't believe it.
And then later when they realised that doubting a ‘holocaust survivor's’ testimony made THEMSELVES look bad, they attacked me for daring to question any part of his lecture at all.
Explain that?
Basically Rawet told the audience that he had never spoken of his wartime experiences until he saw Robert Faurisson on Swedish TV who he told us was claiming that "the holocaust never happened". ( :roll: )
He told us that this was what motivated him to begin touring schools giving his personal experiences refuting Faurisson.
He ended his talk by mentioning Prof. Faurisson again. He falsely said that according to Faurisson and others he, Rawet himself, had never been in a concentration camp and his cousin (who disappeared presumed killed at Chelmno) had never existed, etc.

After his talk I reminded him that he had said this and I asked him whether he really believes Faurisson is saying that?
I told him (in Swedish) “Faurisson doesn't deny that there were camps, nor that Jews were put in them, nor that Jews died in them. You know this don't you?” He admitted that he knew it and then turned 180% so that without moving away he had turned his back to me.

... ... ... ... ...

Related to the title of this topic-thread — the 'where did they go' question — immediately after Rawet's lecture and slide show, questions were invited.
So I asked him this:
if 'the final solution' was as he said the intended genocide of all Jews, how did he explain his whole family surviving internment in numerous camps.

He responded by rather angrily quoting the population figures of Jews in Poland before WW2 and after. He then turned away, as if these figures were sufficient, self-evident proof of his conjecture.

But OBVIOUSLY he himself and his parents were Polish Jews who left Poland after the war to live elsewhere.
He is therefore, on that particular point, the living proof of the EXACT OPPOSITE of what he is indoctrinating school children into.
The irony is colossal.
The disconnect from reality that he and the school teachers are sufferring from and subjecting kids too, is huge.

His quoting of the population of Jews before and after WW2 is so OBVIOUSLY a logically fallacious argument, a non sequitur. That neither he nor the schoolteachers present could see that simple truth I think demonstrates the slightly psychotic nature of this quasi-religious belief-system.

... ... ... ... ... ...

So... here are some questions for the dutiful, obedient, true-believers of the pseudo-historical holocaust narrative:

How come a young child Tobias Rawet, his mother and his father all survived numerous camps if the intention was to kill all Jews in Nazi captivity? He was just 8 years old in 1945 at the war's end.

How come Rawet, school-teachers and others believe that population figures of Jews in Poland before the war when compared with the figures after the war are sufficient proof of a policy to mass-murder ALL Jews?

How do you explain Kitty Hart-Moxon and so many others surviving a so-called death camp and numerous 'death marches if the intention was to kill all Jews in Nazi captivity?

How come Irene Zisblatt, Eva Moses-Korr and other lie-witnesses survived death camps and Nazi captivity if the intention... etc., etc.

How come the child Anne Frank and her teenage sister Margot Frank were not selected for work yet weren't immediately gassed at Auschwitz?

How come their father Otto Frank and thousands of other 'useless eaters' were being treated in camp hospitals when the camps were captured by the Allied forces, if the Nazis had a 'final solution' policy of genocide for all Jews that couldn't work?

How come there is not only no conclusive empirical that the guardians of the mass-gassing mythology can present to support their allegations of genocide, but that much of the testimony from the lie-witnesses/eye-witnesses actually defies empirical reality in so many crucial particulars?

How come the conference at Wannsee that supposedly was the pre-planning meeting for the 'final solution' genocide of ALL Jews in Europe was held AFTER the mass-gassing supposedly had been already begun in Chelmno and Auschwitz?

How come the star-witness to the mass-gassing at Auschwitz presented at Nuremburg, gave testimony that is now admitted to have been physically impossible in SO MANY particulars, plus confessed to visting Treblinka 2 in 1941 to see how they had perfected mass gassing after six months of operation, when T2 wasn't built and operational before July 1942?

How come the holocaust true-believing archeological teams with all their confirmational bias and search for the mass graves at any of the so-called 'extermination centres' or 'death camps' have never found the proof of the crores of remains and requisite area of mass grave?

Etc., etc., etc.

... ... ... ... ...

See that?

Asking questions is easy. :ugeek:
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Turnagain »

Bravo, been-there. An excellent refutation of Nessie's spurious objections and wail of, "Where did they goooo?". One witness out of about 20 mentioned the Treblinka train station but that is cause for Nessie to claim that another witness wasn't in T-II but in a completely different camp. Some witnesses speak of the time they spent in T-II and Nessie morphs that into a claim by me that the witnesses spent time in T-II so I must give a complete camp layout showing the prisoner's barracks.

Injecting a little rational thought into Nessie's endless litany of "what ifs" and "coulda woulda" is a welcome relief. Well done.

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Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:25 pm
Bravo, been-there. An excellent refutation of Nessie's spurious objections and wail of, "Where did they goooo?".
How is asking you to evidence your claims wrong? What makes you exempt from evidencing your beliefs?

Yet again you dodge explaining how it is physically possible for the Nazis to have transported, fed, clothed and accommodated c840,000 from TII, over 13 months in 1942-3, till the end of the war in 1945, without leaving any witness, documentary or physical evidence. How did the Nazis manage to do that?
One witness out of about 20 mentioned the Treblinka train station but that is cause for Nessie to claim that another witness wasn't in T-II but in a completely different camp. Some witnesses speak of the time they spent in T-II and Nessie morphs that into a claim by me that the witnesses spent time in T-II so I must give a complete camp layout showing the prisoner's barracks.

Injecting a little rational thought into Nessie's endless litany of "what ifs" and "coulda woulda" is a welcome relief. Well done.
You have not gone through all the witnesses and checked their claims, which is odd, since you normally distrust Jews and examine their testimony in minute detail. You are clearly just accepting or dismissing evidence as it suits your desired narrative.

Your claim of they all "coulda" come from TII is not good enough. You need to evidence it. I am not relying on "coulda" as you suggest. I have pointed to evidence as to what witnesses said about what they saw at the camps and what was at Malkinia compared to TII. I have shown you a documented transport from Malkinia to A-B.

You need to show which witnesses described being in TII, compared to what we know about TII. For example, if a witness states he lived in TII for 8 days, where did he live? There was only barracks for the Sonderkommados and I am quite sure the Nazis did not let any prisoners live with them.

Been-there has shown just how ignorant he is of the Holocaust narrative. As usual, his contribution is primarily anecdotal, mostly off topic and if he did contribute evidence, it would likely be in the form of images or plagiarised. His level of work would not even be acceptable from a 14 year old school kid.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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