Where did they go

Discuss the alleged Nazi genocide or other wartime atrocities without fear of censorship. No bullying of fellow posters is allowed at RODOH. If you can't be civil, please address the argument and not the participants. Do not use disparaging alterations of the user-names of other RODOH posters or their family members. Failure to heed warnings from Moderators will result in a 24 hour ban (or longer if necessary).
Werd
Posts: 10711
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:38 am
Contact:

Re: Where did they go

Post by Werd »

Since Nessie wants to recycle a bunch of already refuted nonsense from Treblinka about fake colours of freshly gassed corpses, magical pyres with flammable blood and self combusting bodies, all I need to do it put up some old links.

Nessie hypocritically tried to discard and also salvage Rajchman's claim that in one pit of 250,000 corpses, blood and no fuel kept the fire burning all night. He tried to take Rajchman's quote about bodies on pyres being soaked in fuel, and then sneakily apply it to the pits. But I caught his tricks. We all know blood isn't flammable and Rajchman was just talking out of his ass. We all know he clearly said that blood alone was enough to ignite the pit of corpses that burned all night.
viewtopic.php?p=70128#p70128
viewtopic.php?p=70238#p70238
Czarny himself also claimed blood was all that was needed to ignite corpses. Another liar!
viewtopic.php?p=174402#p174402

Rajchman also had wild claims about corpses turning blue after being gassed. Well that's the wrong colour. He wasn't the only one lying about the colour of freshly gassed corpses. Years ago I pointed to the actual witness testimony that PROVED they were talking about freshly gassed corpses in their paragraph. Nessie accepted it and then like a shithead, THIS YEAR, he acted like he never accepted I was right and then again in 2020 tried to pretend they WEREN'T talking about freshly gassed corpses.
viewtopic.php?p=177388#p177388

Rajchman also has some wild claims about the sizes of pits in Treblinka and Nessie to this day still can't show me where they are, nor where Colls allegedly found them. Nessie also couldn't get a correct VOLUME of these graves as noted here when I challenged him. He liked to give alleged surface area measurements in two dimensions AND THAT'S IT! If you're gonna talk about PITS, you can't exclude the THIRD DIMENSION! Otherwise, IT'S NOT A PIT! lol.
viewtopic.php?p=164118#p164118
viewtopic.php?p=164161#p164161
viewtopic.php?p=163867#p163867

Where are the pits that Rajchman described? Where did Colls find them?
https://www.inconvenienthistory.com/2/1/1916
4. The Mass Graves and the Number of Victims

Rajchman claims to have worked for a considerable time at the mass graves. In the following passage, he presents his estimate of the dimensions of those grave pits:
”About ten of them [the Jewish working prisoners] are standing in the pit, placing the dead head by feet, so as to fit as many corpses into the pit as possible. Another group covered each layer with sand, before the next layer of corpses was placed on top of it. The mass graves were dug by an excavator (later there were three of them). They were huge, approximately fifty meters long, thirty meters wide and several stories deep – according to my estimate: four.” (p. 91)
Four stories correspond to between 8 and 12 meters. Let us, in order to make an a fortiori argument, assume a depth of 12 meters. The mass graves described by our witness would then measure 50 × 30 × 12 = 18,000 cubic meters. Assuming a theoretical maximum of 8 corpses per cubic meter[26], such a grave would have a capacity of (18,000 × 8 =) 144,000 corpses. Given that each layer of corpses was covered with a layer of sand, it is reasonable to reduce this capacity with one third, so that each grave could hold (144,000 × 0.66 =) 95,000. In reality, however, one would not be able to dig such a deep pit with vertical walls, since there would be a risk of collapse – the walls would have to be oblique, reducing the capacity further.[27] Moreover, such an extreme depth seems very unrealistic due to the risk of striking ground water – and Treblinka is located only some kilometers south of the large Bug River, on sandy soil!

Regarding the dimensions of the graves we will further note that Rajchman is contradicted on this point by another witness, Eliahu Rosenberg[28], who like Rajchman claims to have worked in Camp 2. Rosenberg claimed in a deposition from 1947 that the graves measured 120 × 15 × 6 m, i.e. 10,800 cubic meters.

How many of these immense mass graves were there? Rajchman mentions in a passage concerning the emptying and the cleaning-up of the mass graves in June 1943:
”Also the cleaning of the pits is progressing at a quicker pace. Ten of them are already emptied. The eleventh and last is one of the four large ones, containing approximately a quarter of a million corpses.” (p. 128)
Thus there were in total eleven mass graves, of which four were larger than the others. Do the dimensions given on page 91 refer to the smaller or the larger ones? This is not clearly stated in the text, but considering the capacity ascribed to the larger pits, it seems reasonable that said dimensions refer to the smaller ones. For the sake of argument, however, we will assume the same dimensions for all the grave pits.

If four of the graves each contained “a quarter of a million corpses” or even “more than 250,000 corpses” (p. 119), it follows that those pits contained together approximately 1 million corpses. Even if we assume, that the remaining seven pits contained “merely” 80,000 corpses – the estimate given in the verdict of the 1964 Treblinka trial[29] – this means a total victim figure of at least 1,560,000. Since we know from the Höfle document that 713,555 Jews were deported to Treblinka during 1942, and since all historians agree that only a relatively small number of Jewish deportees were sent to Treblinka during 1943, resulting in a hypothetical maximum victim figure of approximately 800,000, it follows that Rajchman has exaggerated the hypothetical number of victims by 100%.

In his 1988 interview for the USHMM, Rajchman claimed that the Germans “killed every day about 15,000 people”[30], i.e. 450,000 per month, and in the memoirs (p. 95), he writes that “Up until December 15 the transports arrived regularly, with about ten thousand people daily”, meaning that approximately 600,000 Jews would have been killed in the camp merely in the period stretching from Rajchman’s arrival to the date mentioned. In reality, less than half that number of Jews was deported to the camp during this time.[31]

On the map drawn up by the surveyor Trautsolt in late 1945, Camp 2 is shown as an irregular quadrilateral with an area of approximately 14,000 square meters (1.4 hectares).[32] The mass graves of Rajchman covers a total area of at least (50 × 30 × 11 =) 16,500 square meters! Given that the pits must have been separated from each other by thick earth walls, their total area would completely have filled up Camp 2, even if its size instead was that indicated by the “Treblinka Death Camp Memorial Map”[33] drawn up by Peter Laponder, i.e. approximately 2 hectares. In other words, there would be no space left over in the Totenlager for the gas chambers or the “roasts” used to incinerate the victims.

The dimensions given by our witness appears even more spurious when we consider them in relation to the mass graves identified by Polish archeologist Andrzej Kola at Bełżec in the late 90s. The present volumes of those thirty-three pits totaled 21,310 cubic meters. None of the pits (which were detected by drillings but left unexcavated) were deeper than 5.20 m. Twelve of the pits covered areas lesser than 100 m², while eleven were larger than 200 m².[34] The hypothetical maximum number of Bełżec victims, given by the Höfle document, amounts to 434,508. According to established historiography, those victims were all interred before being exhumed and burned. Thus the total space used for their burial roughly equaled the volume of one of Rajchman’s eleven mass graves. How does this add up if, as our witness claims, the burial detail at Treblinka utilized the available space as efficiently as possible? (In reality, the mass graves at Bełżec would have been able to contain only a fraction of the alleged victims).[35]

In December 1945, Rajchman visited the former site of the “death camp” together with Rachel (Ruchl) Auerbach and other members of an”historical commission”.[36] Why, we may ask, is it that those investigators failed to uncover evidence for the enormous mass graves described by the witnesses?[37] After all, did they not have Mr. Rajchman himself for their guide?
For that matter, has anybody found Wiernik's graves?
viewtopic.php?p=83404#p83404

And what about the lack of evidence of massive wood felling and transportation to the camp for all those pyres? I destroyed you a long time ago on page 31 of MASS PYRES, HOW DID THEY WORK, particularly this post and this one. Plus this on page 35.
Nessie wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:15 pm
Where did all that wood from to fill up the 50-70cm bottom space for ALL THOSE INDIVIDUAL PYRES?
A wood/forest somewhere, location unknown.
That says it all, doesn't it? We all know you love your circular, figure 8 logic.
viewtopic.php?p=163633#p163633

SUPPORT RODOH!
Would you like to financially contribute to the upkeep of RODOH? Please kindly contact Scott Smith ([email protected]). Any and all contributions are welcome!


User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 30634
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:57 pm
Since Nessie wants to recycle a bunch of already refuted nonsense from Treblinka....
All off topic, as you avoid dealing with the topic of "where did they go?"

You are certain no one was gassed at Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor and TII, so those people must have left the camps on mass transports to be accommodated elsewhere. That would leave evidence of it happening, it is physically impossible for the Nazis to have transported and accommodated so many people without leaving any evidence.

You have a choice, show me the evidence or accept there is no evidence. Since no evidence has been produced, I will logically assume there is no evidence.

Your disputing of the evidence for gassings does not excuse you from having no evidence of mass transports and accommodation. Logically, it means the methods you use to dispute the evidence for gassings are flawed and have led you to the wrong conclusions. That has been explained to you (see my last post and 1 to 18).

You are too dumb and blind to understand.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
Posts: 10711
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:38 am
Contact:

Re: Where did they go

Post by Werd »

Nessie wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:13 pm
Werd wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:57 pm
Since Nessie wants to recycle a bunch of already refuted nonsense from Treblinka....
All off topic,
I don't know where every Jew went.

Ha ha! Holocaust!

Okay what about these problems?

Irrelevant.

It wasn't irrelevant when you were trying to use all that stuff to argue FOR your position. Now it suddenly is irrelevant? :lol:

User avatar
Huntinger
Posts: 8914
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:56 am
Location: Gasthaus Waldesruh.Österreichisches Deutsch
Contact:

Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Werd wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:57 pm
Since Nessie wants to recycle a bunch of already refuted nonsense from Treblinka about fake colours of freshly gassed corpses, magical pyres with flammable blood and self combusting bodies, all I need to do it put up some old links.
This thread is not about Treblinka, there are a few threads already on this subject as are the pyres and other nonsense.
Nessie wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:13 am
Still no evidence as to where, in 1943, the Nazis were accommodating the 1.274 million Jews, sent to the AR camps by the end of 1942.
Just accept you are wrong and those people were killed at the camps.
To carry on in this thread about AR camps is trolling; it has been clearly ascertained that people travelled both ways through the camps into Minsk and elsewhere.
The Populations of Poland and Belarus are not significantly changed when the following factors are taken into consideration:
  • Natural Mortality rates were higher than birth rates.
  • Births mainly stopped at start of conflict as men were away
  • Populations were scattered in the conflict.
  • Many returned home after the 46 Statistics were compiled
  • The million or so deported by the Soviets account for population losses
  • Several million eastern Poles stayed in Belarus
Juden were expelled but obviously returned in droves, except for those expelled by the Soviets into their hinterland where over half died.


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
Amt IV

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 30634
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:14 pm
Nessie wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:13 pm
Werd wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:57 pm
Since Nessie wants to recycle a bunch of already refuted nonsense from Treblinka....
All off topic,
I don't know where every Jew went.
You don't know where any Jew went after they arrived at TII, Belzec, Chelmno or Sobibor.
Ha ha! Holocaust!

Okay what about these problems?

Irrelevant.

It wasn't irrelevant when you were trying to use all that stuff to argue FOR your position. Now it suddenly is irrelevant? :lol:
I have proved your "problems" are just arguments using logical fallacies, whereby you try and interpret some of the evidence in a way that it makes it appear gassings etc were not possible. Meanwhile, you ignore your claim of mass transports and resettlement without leaving any evidence at all is impossible.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 30634
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:17 pm
....
To carry on in this thread about AR camps is trolling; it has been clearly ascertained that people travelled both ways through the camps into Minsk and elsewhere.
Show me transport lists of trains full of people leaving any AR camp and arriving elsewhere, such as Minsk.
The Populations of Poland and Belarus are not significantly changed when the following factors are taken into consideration:
  • Natural Mortality rates were higher than birth rates.
  • Births mainly stopped at start of conflict as men were away
  • Populations were scattered in the conflict.
  • Many returned home after the 46 Statistics were compiled
  • The million or so deported by the Soviets account for population losses
  • Several million eastern Poles stayed in Belarus
Juden were expelled but obviously returned in droves, except for those expelled by the Soviets into their hinterland where over half died.
You are still dodging showing me a large Jewish population in Minsk or anywhere else in the Ostland or RKU at the end of 1943.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Werd
Posts: 10711
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:38 am
Contact:

Re: Where did they go

Post by Werd »

Nessie wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:34 pm
You don't know where any Jew went after they arrived at TII, Belzec, Chelmno or Sobibor.
Korherr says a lot of them went to the East through the camps. You used to accept Korherr because you thought that was proof of the holocaust. When you realize that he said Jews were transited through those camps in the generalgovernmente to the East, suddenly you flipped and decided Korherr was lying. :roll:
I have proved your "problems" are just arguments using logical fallacies,
You read it right, rodoh. Nessie has just said that demanding proof for the existence of those massive pits claimed by Wiernik and Rajchman are fallacies.

User avatar
Huntinger
Posts: 8914
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:56 am
Location: Gasthaus Waldesruh.Österreichisches Deutsch
Contact:

Re: Where did they go

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:36 pm
  • Show me transport lists of trains full of people leaving any AR camp and arriving elsewhere, such as Minsk.
  • You are still dodging showing me a large Jewish population in Minsk or anywhere else in the Ostland or RKU at the end of 1943.
It is only an assumption that people left by train. I am sure the poster is well aware of German juden arriving in Minsk considering the map and details were posted earlier. The poster is aware that the transport details are largely lost just like the details of goods and people going to and from the Arbeitslager. The poster is well aware of the Bialystok juden leaving to Lublin stopping at the border camp and carrying on at a later time.

No one is dodging; it is irrelevant. It is stated in the Germans code previously presented that non working people were to be confined to the Ghettos while the majority of workers were to be spread out at the multitude of work stations, where they could live on site. It seems that the vast majority of the people were mobile moving all over the place until the war came their way again.

Some of the work places are known in detail; the fact that the population statistics show no great losses except for the Russian transports shows that despite the mobility of the people and lack of records they did return. This is why the population has not decreased.


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
Amt IV

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 30634
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Werd wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:39 pm
Nessie wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:34 pm
You don't know where any Jew went after they arrived at TII, Belzec, Chelmno or Sobibor.
Korherr says a lot of them went to the East through the camps. You used to accept Korherr because you thought that was proof of the holocaust. When you realize that he said Jews were transited through those camps in the generalgovernmente to the East, suddenly you flipped and decided Korherr was lying. :roll:
My position was and is; if Korherr was correct, then by the end of 1942, 1.274million Jews had been resettled in the east, which if that had happened, it would be easy to evidence. I then waited for deniers to produce the evidence and they have failed.

The logical conclusion to that is Korherr's report merely suggested they were being resettled and in fact, as the evidence shows, they were killed at the AR camps.
I have proved your "problems" are just arguments using logical fallacies,
You read it right, rodoh. Nessie has just said that demanding proof for the existence of those massive pits claimed by Wiernik and Rajchman are fallacies.
You just used another fallacy; strawman, so proving my claim correct, you rely on fallacies, not evidence.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 30634
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Where did they go

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:52 pm
Nessie wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:36 pm
  • Show me transport lists of trains full of people leaving any AR camp and arriving elsewhere, such as Minsk.
  • You are still dodging showing me a large Jewish population in Minsk or anywhere else in the Ostland or RKU at the end of 1943.
It is only an assumption that people left by train.
You cannot evidence any arrivals at Minsk from an AR camp, by any means of travel.
I am sure the poster is well aware of German juden arriving in Minsk considering the map and details were posted earlier. The poster is aware that the transport details are largely lost just like the details of goods and people going to and from the Arbeitslager.
There are records of train movements and transports in archives all over Europe. Just because they cannot be linked to online does not mean they are lost.
The poster is well aware of the Bialystok juden leaving to Lublin stopping at the border camp and carrying on at a later time.
That is you misreading Zabecki's records and assuming the people onboard stayed onboard for the whole journey.
No one is dodging; it is irrelevant. It is stated in the Germans code previously presented that non working people were to be confined to the Ghettos while the majority of workers were to be spread out at the multitude of work stations, where they could live on site. It seems that the vast majority of the people were mobile moving all over the place until the war came their way again.

Some of the work places are known in detail; the fact that the population statistics show no great losses except for the Russian transports shows that despite the mobility of the people and lack of records they did return. This is why the population has not decreased.
Evidence "work stations" in the Osltand and RKU in 1943 and where the Nazis accommodated, at huge expense, those unable to work.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 32 guests