Witch Trials

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Huntinger
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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Huntinger »

Lupus Rothstein wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:27 pm
Again the individual called Huntinger produces a jumble of irrelevance, falsehoods, misunderstandings and nonsense. No doubt with the sole motive of trying to disrupt the discussion. I've been patient with him but enough is enough. No more time will be wasted responding to his useless and rather strange posts.
Stick to the topics Lupus, if you have nothing to say then go.


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

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Turnagain
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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Turnagain »

Lupus wrote:
And you have failed to prove this scenario.
Nope, you're wrong, Lupus, which renders your claim worthless. As said before, you need to come up with something besides smiley faces to support your claim. Hop to it.
So according to Turnagains logic all one has to do to form a 100% accurate opinion on the hermetically sealed nature of a building is to just to 'witness' the building or merely observe it. Wow, how mad is that ?
I have previously named and quoted eleven (11) eyewitnesses who stated that the alleged gas chambers were hermetically sealed. Six (6) of those witnesses claimed that the gas chambers also functioned as vacuum chambers. If you have information disputing those claims let's hear it. If you have witnesses who claim that the gas/vacuum chambers weren't hermetically sealed then name and quote them. Smiley faces and exclamations of "Wow" are insufficient proof for any of your claims. Or, are you going for the Nessie defense that none of the witnesses knew their arse from their elbow about the gas chambers, the graves or the magic Jew barbeque?
If I was you i'd discard your silly notions and stick to reality. Brush wood /gasoline/wood were used as fuel. If toothpicks were used then you should produce approx 3 witnesses who can corroborate this , including a nazi witness for balance. Good luck with this little task.


Chil Rajchman stated that twigs the size of toothpicks were used to set the cadavers ablaze. He also said that brush was used. Yankel Wiernik made no mention of any fuel at all. Heinrich Matthes, a German officer at Treblinka, testified that, "The corpses were piled on these rails. Brushwood was put under the rails. (bolding mine)

Note that I didn't say that toothpicks were used for kindling. I quoted Rajchman who stated that "twigs the size of toothpicks" were used. Whether twigs the size of toothpicks, brush or brushwood was used as kindling to set the cadavers ablaze, NO witness claimed that sufficient wood was used to cremate the ~850,000 cadavers. Since cremation is an endothermic reaction, please explain how those corpses could be cremated without using tons of wood for fuel. That is the reality that you can't avoid, Lupus. Smiley faces don't substantiate your claims.
Ha Ha, look at Turnagains interpretation of how the Floss method worked . He conveniently forgets to mention the brushwood that was required to be placed under the railway lines on which the bodies were stacked, and tries to claim that 'fat women' on their own was the fuel !!!
Lupus, the notion that brushwood piled under the magic Jew barbeque would be sufficient fuel to reduce up to 3,000 cadavers to carbonized bone is ludicrous. Stacking up to 3,000 bodies on a grate ~30 meters long is ludicrous. Even if a body was placed every foot the pile of bodies would be 30 bodies high. Floss' magic Jew barbeque is a fairy tale, a fantasy, Lupus. Physical laws didn't take a vacation in Poland just for the convenience of the Germans.
It would be mad if you could provide the specific passage in these articles that mentions the gas chambers etc and therefore proves what you claim is true.
Try reading article 21 of the IMT charter with some comprehension. If you can accomplish that perhaps it will come to you.

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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Huntinger »

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:56 pm
Try reading article 21 of the IMT charter with some comprehension. If you can accomplish that perhaps it will come to you.
Good, it is trying hard on this thread and others to derail by sneering, going off topic, saying nothing. Make it focus on article 21. Forget about grates, hermetic seals, draglines etc, different countries or even lie witnesses.
Try and make this Jude honest.


𝕴𝖈𝖍 𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖊 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙𝖘...𝕾𝖔𝖟𝖎𝖆𝖑 𝖌𝖊𝖍𝖙 𝖓𝖚𝖗 𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖑

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Lupus Rothstein
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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Lupus Rothstein »

Turnagain wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:56 pm
Lupus wrote:
And you have failed to prove this scenario.
Nope, you're wrong, Lupus, which renders your claim worthless. As said before, you need to come up with something besides smiley faces to support your claim. Hop to it.
Turnagain just resorts to claiming i'm 'wrong' , even after he has repeatedly failed to produce the goods to prove otherwise ! He'll probably continue doing this until he finally blows a gasket and self-implodes with rage :lol: :lol:

Just get back to your simple task, and if you continue to fail, then you will need to provide another excuse as to why your Nazi friends didn't even bother to inform the world of the 'revisionist truth' ( details of which are noted by their absence, even after I gave you the opportunity to provide in my last post)
Turnagain wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:56 pm
So according to Turnagains logic all one has to do to form a 100% accurate opinion on the hermetically sealed nature of a building is to just to 'witness' the building or merely observe it. Wow, how mad is that ?
I have previously named and quoted eleven (11) eyewitnesses who stated that the alleged gas chambers were hermetically sealed. Six (6) of those witnesses claimed that the gas chambers also functioned as vacuum chambers. If you have information disputing those claims let's hear it. If you have witnesses who claim that the gas/vacuum chambers weren't hermetically sealed then name and quote them. Smiley faces and exclamations of "Wow" are insufficient proof for any of your claims. Or, are you going for the Nessie defense that none of the witnesses knew their arse from their elbow about the gas chambers, the graves or the magic Jew barbeque?
But I asked you how sure you were that these witnesses were qualified to give such an assessment , and your response was basically that just being a witness was sufficient to arrive at a technical/scientific assessment . But this just isn't true is it ? Think about it for a minute then get back to me.

I gave you the likely reason why they made such a claim. Are you saying this reason is implausible or highly unlikely ?

Yes I am aware of witnesses who made observations that suggest the chambers were not hermetically sealed. No doubt you are aware of these witnesses too judging by the search history showing you have engaged in debates on this topic on multiple occasions. However this doesn't appear to stop you from feigning ignorance over their identity ! Ever heard of 2 characters going by the names of Goldfarb and Wiernik ?
Turnagain wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:56 pm
If I was you i'd discard your silly notions and stick to reality. Brush wood /gasoline/wood were used as fuel. If toothpicks were used then you should produce approx 3 witnesses who can corroborate this , including a nazi witness for balance. Good luck with this little task.


Chil Rajchman stated that twigs the size of toothpicks were used to set the cadavers ablaze. He also said that brush was used. Yankel Wiernik made no mention of any fuel at all. Heinrich Matthes, a German officer at Treblinka, testified that, "The corpses were piled on these rails. Brushwood was put under the rails. (bolding mine)

Note that I didn't say that toothpicks were used for kindling. I quoted Rajchman who stated that "twigs the size of toothpicks" were used. Whether twigs the size of toothpicks, brush or brushwood was used as kindling to set the cadavers ablaze, NO witness claimed that sufficient wood was used to cremate the ~850,000 cadavers. Since cremation is an endothermic reaction, please explain how those corpses could be cremated without using tons of wood for fuel. That is the reality that you can't avoid, Lupus. Smiley faces don't substantiate your claims.
Just because these witnesses didn't go into the detail you're demanding, doesn't mean to say the cremation of hundreds of thousands was just an invention . If you examine all the other witness testimony, from inmates,Nazis,Ukrainians,locals etc regarding witnessing dead bodies/ gas chambers/graves/flames/smells , then it should become obvious to any reasonably-minded and well-balanced individual that the cremations DID take place.

So how do you know tonnes of wood were NOT used ? No-one can determine the total amount of fuel used just by going on the words of those 3 witnesses, but what we can determine from the testimony of numerous witnesses from AR and Chelmno who mentioned flames/smells/heat etc was that a massive cremation operation did take place.
Turnagain wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:56 pm
Ha Ha, look at Turnagains interpretation of how the Floss method worked . He conveniently forgets to mention the brushwood that was required to be placed under the railway lines on which the bodies were stacked, and tries to claim that 'fat women' on their own was the fuel !!!
Lupus, the notion that brushwood piled under the magic Jew barbeque would be sufficient fuel to reduce up to 3,000 cadavers to carbonized bone is ludicrous. Stacking up to 3,000 bodies on a grate ~30 meters long is ludicrous. Even if a body was placed every foot the pile of bodies would be 30 bodies high. Floss' magic Jew barbeque is a fairy tale, a fantasy, Lupus. Physical laws didn't take a vacation in Poland just for the convenience of the Germans.
How do you know how much brushwood was used ?

Also, how do you explain the fact that several witnesses, Nazi and Jew mentioned Floss, his experiments and the fact he hit on a winning formula? Why would multiple witnesses from both sides of the fence lie about such an event ? If the witnesses wanted just to lie about cremating dead bodies, then why introduce this unnecessary additional element to proceedings ? In fact it actually makes the testimony more genuine and credible.
Turnagain wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:56 pm
It would be mad if you could provide the specific passage in these articles that mentions the gas chambers etc and therefore proves what you claim is true.
Try reading article 21 of the IMT charter with some comprehension. If you can accomplish that perhaps it will come to you.
I have read it, so care to direct me to the part that states what you claim it states ? Here's some help, the terms 'g-a-s c-h-a-m-b-e-r ' and 'c-r-e-m-a-t-i-o-n' should appear . Good luck with that.

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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Lupus Rothstein »

Huntinger wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:41 pm
Turnagain wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:56 pm
Try reading article 21 of the IMT charter with some comprehension. If you can accomplish that perhaps it will come to you.
Good, it is trying hard on this thread and others to derail by sneering, going off topic, saying nothing. Make it focus on article 21. Forget about grates, hermetic seals, draglines etc, different countries or even lie witnesses.
Try and make this Jude honest.
I have had to report you again for repeated violation of forum rules. You are now referring to me as both 'it' and 'Jude'. I expect Scott will have to deliver another warning to you over this latest unacceptable outburst.

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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Turnagain »

Lupus wrote:
Yes I am aware of witnesses who made observations that suggest the chambers were not hermetically sealed. No doubt you are aware of these witnesses too judging by the search history showing you have engaged in debates on this topic on multiple occasions. However this doesn't appear to stop you from feigning ignorance over their identity ! Ever heard of 2 characters going by the names of Goldfarb and Wiernik ?
Yes, I've heard of Wiernik. I don't recall reading anything from anyone called Goldfarb. Here's what Wiernik had to say about the gas chambers in chapter 5 of his book, "A Year in Treblinka".
When I arrived at the camp, three gas chambers were already in operation; another ten were added while I was there. A gas chamber measured 5 x 5 meters and was about 1.90 meters high. The outlet on the roof had a hermetic cap. The chamber was equipped with a gas pipe inlet and a baked tile floor slanting towards the platform. The brick building which housed the gas chambers was separated from Camp No. 1 by a wooden wall. This wooden wall and the brick wall of the building together formed a corridor which was 80 centimeters taller than the building. The chambers were connected with the corridor by a hermetically fitted iron door leading into each of the chambers. On the side of Camp No. 2 the chambers were connected by a platform four meters wide, which- ran alongside all three chambers. The platform was about 80 centimeters above ground level. There was also a hermetically fitted wooden door on this side.
The outlet on the roof had a hermetic cap and the door were fitted hermetically. IOW, the gas chamber was hermetically sealed. Your notion that Wiernik said that the chambers weren't hermetically sealed just fell on it's arse. Let's see a quote from Goldfarb.
So how do you know tonnes of wood were NOT used ? No-one can determine the total amount of fuel used just by going on the words of those 3 witnesses, but what we can determine from the testimony of numerous witnesses from AR and Chelmno who mentioned flames/smells/heat etc was that a massive cremation operation did take place.
There are no records of trainloads of firewood being shipped to Treblinka. Zabecki, the stationmaster, made no mention of any trains carrying wood going to Treblinka. There are no areas of logged forest around Treblinka.

The amount of wood needed to cremate a corpse is well known. Cremation on open pyres is the principle method of disposing of bodies in India. The areas reserved for cremations are known as "ghats". Generally, it take from 400 to 600 kg of seasoned firewood to cremate a cadaver. It would require about 425,000,000 kg of wood to cremate 850,000 cadavers. It's quite simple, Lupus; no fuel, no cremations.

There are two alleged witnesses to the magic Jew barbeque. One said that the rails were set on pylons 50 centimeters high and the other claimed that the pylons were 70 centimeters high. You can't stuff ~1,500,000 kg of seasoned firewood into that area and that doesn't take into account that the higher layers of cadavers would be insulated from the heat. Using a grate rather than a pyre is a very inefficient means of cremation and stacking cadavers on the grate would make it almost impossible. The notion that fat women were placed face down for the initial layer of corpses which served as fuel to set the rest of the stack of bodies ablaze is ludicrous.

Face it Lupus, the Floss magic Jew barbeque is a fantasy. I don't care how many people said that they smelled a bad odor or saw smoke from Treblinka, it wasn't from cremating bodies on the magic Jew barbeque. The hermetically sealed gas/vacuum chambers are a fantasy. That the M&H draglines from T-1 both dug and stockpiled the excavated material from the mass graves is another fantasy.

Read that article 21 again. If it doesn't come to you, I'll explain it in a future post.

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Lupus Rothstein
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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Lupus Rothstein »

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:28 pm
Lupus wrote:
Yes I am aware of witnesses who made observations that suggest the chambers were not hermetically sealed. No doubt you are aware of these witnesses too judging by the search history showing you have engaged in debates on this topic on multiple occasions. However this doesn't appear to stop you from feigning ignorance over their identity ! Ever heard of 2 characters going by the names of Goldfarb and Wiernik ?
Yes, I've heard of Wiernik. I don't recall reading anything from anyone called Goldfarb. Here's what Wiernik had to say about the gas chambers in chapter 5 of his book, "A Year in Treblinka".
When I arrived at the camp, three gas chambers were already in operation; another ten were added while I was there. A gas chamber measured 5 x 5 meters and was about 1.90 meters high. The outlet on the roof had a hermetic cap. The chamber was equipped with a gas pipe inlet and a baked tile floor slanting towards the platform. The brick building which housed the gas chambers was separated from Camp No. 1 by a wooden wall. This wooden wall and the brick wall of the building together formed a corridor which was 80 centimeters taller than the building. The chambers were connected with the corridor by a hermetically fitted iron door leading into each of the chambers. On the side of Camp No. 2 the chambers were connected by a platform four meters wide, which- ran alongside all three chambers. The platform was about 80 centimeters above ground level. There was also a hermetically fitted wooden door on this side.
The outlet on the roof had a hermetic cap and the door were fitted hermetically. IOW, the gas chamber was hermetically sealed. Your notion that Wiernik said that the chambers weren't hermetically sealed just fell on it's arse. Let's see a quote from Goldfarb.
So what is the role of a hermetic cap ? If the room was absolutely sealed then why the need for this outlet ?

Yes, thanks for mentioning the doors, as this is the most likely reason why the witnesses believed the chambers were hermetically sealed. An incorrect, but understandable claim.

Goldfarb's statement :

1) In each chamber there is one opening in the ceiling. And it is covered by a net.

2) For removal of the gas from the chamber there was a separate opening in the roof.

The source is GARF 7445-2-134, p. 31&33 dated 21.09.1944. ( See Holocaust Controversies Blog http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -rest.html)
Turnagain wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:28 pm
So how do you know tonnes of wood were NOT used ? No-one can determine the total amount of fuel used just by going on the words of those 3 witnesses, but what we can determine from the testimony of numerous witnesses from AR and Chelmno who mentioned flames/smells/heat etc was that a massive cremation operation did take place.
1) There are no records of trainloads of firewood being shipped to Treblinka. Zabecki, the stationmaster, made no mention of any trains carrying wood going to Treblinka. 2)There are no areas of logged forest around Treblinka.
1) So what ? This does not prove a thing. Especially when a lot of ....err... 'evidence disposal' was in operation , under strict orders from the Nazi hierarchy ( I wonder why ? ;) )

2) What is your definition of 'around Treblinka ?' 1 mile radius ? 2 mile ?
Turnagain wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:28 pm
The amount of wood needed to cremate a corpse is well known. Cremation on open pyres is the principle method of disposing of bodies in India. The areas reserved for cremations are known as "ghats". Generally, it take from 400 to 600 kg of seasoned firewood to cremate a cadaver. It would require about 425,000,000 kg of wood to cremate 850,000 cadavers. It's quite simple, Lupus; no fuel, no cremations.
Who told you that ?

How much to cremate a baby or a body that has been lying in a grave for 3 months decomposed ? Would that be 400-600 kg too ?
Turnagain wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:28 pm
There are two alleged witnesses to the magic Jew barbeque. One said that the rails were set on pylons 50 centimeters high and the other claimed that the pylons were 70 centimeters high. You can't stuff ~1,500,000 kg of seasoned firewood into that area and that doesn't take into account that the higher layers of cadavers would be insulated from the heat. Using a grate rather than a pyre is a very inefficient means of cremation and stacking cadavers on the grate would make it almost impossible. The notion that fat women were placed face down for the initial layer of corpses which served as fuel to set the rest of the stack of bodies ablaze is ludicrous.
Who said you needed 1,500,000 kg of seasoned wood to cremate a batch of Jews ? What so ludicrous about using fat women as a first layer ? All that fat dripping from their bodies would be ideal to create the wick effect using charred wood as the wick . This is why Floss was successful with his experiments, he found the ideal way using a method requiring relatively little wood as fuel.

Turnagain wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:28 pm
Face it Lupus, the Floss magic Jew barbeque is a fantasy. I don't care how many people said that they smelled a bad odor or saw smoke from Treblinka, it wasn't from cremating bodies on the magic Jew barbeque. The hermetically sealed gas/vacuum chambers are a fantasy. That the M&H draglines from T-1 both dug and stockpiled the excavated material from the mass graves is another fantasy.

Read that article 21 again. If it doesn't come to you, I'll explain it in a future post.
So Turnagain doesn't care about all the other witnesses who observed /smelled the cremations. Not exactly the most intelligent or sensible response one would expect to hear from someone who purports to have a serious interest in this particular debate, but hey ho !

Well, I wouldnt say the hermetically sealed chambers were a 'fantasy', more so they were an incorrect (but understandable) assumption from several witnesses.

Now lets see what Turnagain 'forgot' to address from my last response :

1)
But I asked you how sure you were that these witnesses were qualified to give such an assessment , and your response was basically that just being a witness was sufficient to arrive at a technical/scientific assessment . But this just isn't true is it ? Think about it for a minute then get back to me.

I gave you the likely reason why they made such a claim. Are you saying this reason is implausible or highly unlikely ?
2)
Also, how do you explain the fact that several witnesses, Nazi and Jew mentioned Floss, his experiments and the fact he hit on a winning formula? Why would multiple witnesses from both sides of the fence lie about such an event ? If the witnesses wanted just to lie about cremating dead bodies, then why introduce this unnecessary additional element to proceedings ? In fact it actually makes the testimony more genuine and credible
.

And finally, lets remind Turangain of his failure to produce the relevant passage that contains the terms 'gas chambers' and 'cremations' re his invented 'judicial notice' claim, AGAIN !

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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Turnagain »

Well, let's start with last first. Lupus wrote:
And finally, lets remind Turangain of his failure to produce the relevant passage that contains the terms 'gas chambers' and 'cremations' re his invented 'judicial notice' claim, AGAIN !
Let's just use your link since it's handy.
The Nuremberg document USSR-436 (GARF 7445-2-134) consists of the materials of the Soviet investigation of Treblinka. Among the numerous protocols of interrogation by military investigators Jurovskij and Malov there is a very important testimony by a former Treblinka Totenlager inmate Abram (Abraham) Goldfarb. Goldfarb took part in the construction of the new gas chambers (the 10-chambers building), just like Yankel Wiernik. It is amazing that M&G do not mention his testimony. Apparently, they're simply unaware of USSR-436 - but how can this be, is they took the very plans drawn by Jurovskij from it? Some "research"!
Article 21 states that judicial notice will be given to reports by governments. That would be Nuremberg document USSR-436, which is specifically about gas chambers. See how that worked, Lupus? Article 21 takes judicial notice of governmental reports. The USSR is a government. They enter a document concerning gas chambers. The tribunal takes judicial notice of it. Therefore, under article 21, the IMT takes judicial notice of gas chambers.
Yes, thanks for mentioning the doors, as this is the most likely reason why the witnesses believed the chambers were hermetically sealed. An incorrect, but understandable claim.
The question is not about whether or not there was a roof vent. Wiernik states that it had a hermetic cap. That means that no air could enter or leave through the vent since it had a hermetic cap. In turn, that means that the gas chamber was hermetically sealed since the doors were also hermetically sealed. Wiernk and ten (10) other witnesses said that the gas chambers were hermetically sealed. Six (6) of those witnesses said that the gas chambers also functioned as vacuum chambers. Goldfarb said that the roof vent was covered by a net. You are apparently claiming that everyone except Goldfarb were mistaken or didn't know their arse from their elbow. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
1) So what ? This does not prove a thing. Especially when a lot of ....err... 'evidence disposal' was in operation , under strict orders from the Nazi hierarchy ( I wonder why ? ;) )

2) What is your definition of 'around Treblinka ?' 1 mile radius ? 2 mile ?
It proves that no firewood or other fuel such as coal was shipped to Treblinka. Zabecki was a member of the Polish underground and claimed to have recorded all trains entering Treblinka. He made no mention of gondola or flatcars hauling wood or coal to Treblinka. There are no official train records of trains hauling wood or coal to Treblinka. There were no facilities at Treblinka for unloading or storing trainloads of wood or coal. Where did the eeevul Narzis get the fuel to cremate ~850,000 to ~950,000 cadavers?

IIRC, there was no evidence of a logging operation within a 10 mile radius of Treblinka. The wood detail (Glazar, "Trap With a Green Fence) said that the wood detail left the camp in the morning and returned in the evening carrying limbs broken from trees. The wood detail was about 25 men. Limbs broken from trees isn't sufficient fuel to cremate up to 6,000 cadavers per day. There were no clear cuts within walking distance of the camp. There were no logging operations anywhere near the camp.
How much to cremate a baby or a body that has been lying in a grave for 3 months decomposed ? Would that be 400-600 kg too ?
You can quibble over the amount of fuel needed to cremate the alleged bodies at Treblinka if you wish. Reduce it by half if you wish but you still end up with millions of kg of fuel needed for the cremations and it wasn't available. Finito. End of story.
Who said you needed 1,500,000 kg of seasoned wood to cremate a batch of Jews ? What so ludicrous about using fat women as a first layer ? All that fat dripping from their bodies would be ideal to create the wick effect using charred wood as the wick . This is why Floss was successful with his experiments, he found the ideal way using a method requiring relatively little wood as fuel.
Cremation is endothermic, Lupus. Human bodies don't have enough heat calories in them to create the heat necessary to cremate a human cadaver. What don't you understand about that? There was no wick effect with the magic Jew barbeque. The bodies were separated from the kindling by the width of the rails. As the kindling burned down there would be an even greater separation. I'll repeat, cremation is endothermic. What don't you understand about that?
So Turnagain doesn't care about all the other witnesses who observed /smelled the cremations.
There could have been some open pyre cremations of prisoners who either died en route or while at the camp. There is a mortality rate in any population especially given harsh travel and living conditions. Nobody is immune from death so there would have been the need for some body disposal at Treblinka. Nobody observed piles of bodies stacked ~30 bodies high on grates constructed from railroad rails. It didn't happen and the witnesses who claimed to have seen the magic Jew barbeque were lying. Just as Rajchman lied about seeing the blood of 250,000 Jews buried in 40 feet deep pits catch fire and burn for an entire night and the next day. Neither does blood have a chemical in it that renders it flammable as testified to by Czarny.
Well, I wouldnt say the hermetically sealed chambers were a 'fantasy', more so they were an incorrect (but understandable) assumption from several witnesses.
Aha! The Nessie defense. The witnesses were full of more shit than a Christmas goose and didn't know their arse from their elbows about gas chambers. Of course the eleven eyewitnesses get morphed into just "several" witnesses. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.

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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Huntinger »

Who said you needed 1,500,000 kg of seasoned wood to cremate a batch of Jews ? What so ludicrous about using fat women as a first layer ? All that fat dripping from their bodies would be ideal to create the wick effect using charred wood as the wick . This is why Floss was successful with his experiments, he found the ideal way using a method requiring relatively little wood as fuel.
Perhaps this poster could give its technical expertise to the Italians who are having issues with cremations at the moment and spare us the magyke on this forum :lol: On another thread talk about it perhaps but it has been done to death: the poster is totally off topic, which is to do with Witch Trials, not burning or hermetic seals. It should stay a little more focused on the issues being discussed and not wander all over the place. A little more scientific literacy might be of assistance as well, not the childish assertions mentioned above.


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Re: Witch Trials

Post by Lupus Rothstein »

Turnagain wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:24 am
Well, let's start with last first. Lupus wrote:
And finally, lets remind Turangain of his failure to produce the relevant passage that contains the terms 'gas chambers' and 'cremations' re his invented 'judicial notice' claim, AGAIN !
I have a better idea, lets start with the points or questions I have raised previously that Turnagain continues to ignore or not answer . As I mentioned before, this appears to be a tactic of his, but I wont let him get away with it :


1)
But I asked you how sure you were that these witnesses were qualified to give such an assessment , and your response was basically that just being a witness was sufficient to arrive at a technical/scientific assessment . But this just isn't true is it ? Think about it for a minute then get back to me.

I gave you the likely reason why they made such a claim. Are you saying this reason is implausible or highly unlikely ?
2)
Also, how do you explain the fact that several witnesses, Nazi and Jew mentioned Floss, his experiments and the fact he hit on a winning formula? Why would multiple witnesses from both sides of the fence lie about such an event ? If the witnesses wanted just to lie about cremating dead bodies, then why introduce this unnecessary additional element to proceedings ? In fact it actually makes the testimony more genuine and credible

3)
So what is the role of a hermetic cap ? If the room was absolutely sealed then why the need for this outlet ?
Right, lets get back to his last post - and unlike Turnagain I will quote ever word he wrote :
Turnagain wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:24 am
Let's just use your link since it's handy.
The Nuremberg document USSR-436 (GARF 7445-2-134) consists of the materials of the Soviet investigation of Treblinka. Among the numerous protocols of interrogation by military investigators Jurovskij and Malov there is a very important testimony by a former Treblinka Totenlager inmate Abram (Abraham) Goldfarb. Goldfarb took part in the construction of the new gas chambers (the 10-chambers building), just like Yankel Wiernik. It is amazing that M&G do not mention his testimony. Apparently, they're simply unaware of USSR-436 - but how can this be, is they took the very plans drawn by Jurovskij from it? Some "research"!
Article 21 states that judicial notice will be given to reports by governments. That would be Nuremberg document USSR-436, which is specifically about gas chambers. See how that worked, Lupus? Article 21 takes judicial notice of governmental reports. The USSR is a government. They enter a document concerning gas chambers. The tribunal takes judicial notice of it. Therefore, under article 21, the IMT takes judicial notice of gas chambers.
Wow ! Talk about creative thinking !! Or more like another act of desperation as you try and back up your original 'judicial notice' claim. Well, firstly your explanation does nothing of the sort, and secondly you are..as usual...wrong . If you are correct then how come the Russian reports claiming mass soap production from Jews, and the Katyn episode were not included in the final judgement as being proven and 'common knowledge fact' ?

If basically everything that is included in these reports were accepted as fact, as you claim, then what was the point of producing more evidence for the soap allegations ? Such as :

• the testimony of Sigmund Mazur (Exhibit USSR-197)
• a copy of "the recipe for soap produced from the corpses of the executed" (Exhibit USSR-196)
• the sworn statement of British POW John Henry Witton (Exhibit USSR-264)
• the sworn statement of British POW William Anderson Neely (Exhibit USSR-272).


If everything in these 'government reports' were accepted as fact, then why have a trial at all ?

Holocaust Controversies spell it out quite clearly here http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ed-to.html
Turnagain wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:24 am
Yes, thanks for mentioning the doors, as this is the most likely reason why the witnesses believed the chambers were hermetically sealed. An incorrect, but understandable claim.
The question is not about whether or not there was a roof vent. Wiernik states that it had a hermetic cap. That means that no air could enter or leave through the vent since it had a hermetic cap. In turn, that means that the gas chamber was hermetically sealed since the doors were also hermetically sealed. Wiernk and ten (10) other witnesses said that the gas chambers were hermetically sealed. Six (6) of those witnesses said that the gas chambers also functioned as vacuum chambers. Goldfarb said that the roof vent was covered by a net. You are apparently claiming that everyone except Goldfarb were mistaken or didn't know their arse from their elbow. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
My question to you was what was the purpose of this 'hermetic cap' ? But as I mentioned earlier, you didn't answer.

No, the question is whether the gas chambers were hermetically sealed, you want to make out they were by mentioning "11 witnesses" . I have told you why they were mistaken and I supplied you with two witnesses who mention a hole/vent on the roof and according to Goldfarb it was for the removal of the gas. So how can the chamber be hermetically sealed if this hole/vent existed ?

Yes, all the other witnesses made an incorrect (but understandable) assumption. According to the HC article, Goldfarb and Wiernik actually participated in the construction of the gas chambers, which suggests they would be more qualified to make an accurate assessment. Again I'll ask you, what makes you think all these other witnesses would have the technical expertise to make a 100% accurate claim that the whole camber was hermetically sealed ?
Turnagain wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:24 am
1) So what ? This does not prove a thing. Especially when a lot of ....err... 'evidence disposal' was in operation , under strict orders from the Nazi hierarchy ( I wonder why ? ;) )

2) What is your definition of 'around Treblinka ?' 1 mile radius ? 2 mile ?
It proves that no firewood or other fuel such as coal was shipped to Treblinka.
No it doesn't. Why have you ignored the fact that most of the documentation was destroyed ?
Turnagain wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:24 am
Zabecki was a member of the Polish underground and claimed to have recorded all trains entering Treblinka. He made no mention of gondola or flatcars hauling wood or coal to Treblinka. There are no official train records of trains hauling wood or coal to Treblinka. There were no facilities at Treblinka for unloading or storing trainloads of wood or coal. Where did the eeevul Narzis get the fuel to cremate ~850,000 to ~950,000 cadavers


in the collection of reports he made about 'special trains' , he would have no reason to record deliveries of wood, as the purpose was to record numbers of Jews deported to Treblinka. Just because he didn't mention any wood transports in other interrogations or testimony doesn't mean no deliveries were made by train . Did he mention the clothes that the Nazis stole off the backs of the Jews or the hair they cut from the women being transported out on trains ? Or what about deliveries of toiletries and food coming in ? Any mention of them ? Doesn't prove anything does it ?

What special facility would you need to unload wood ? Apart from a slave army of Jews ? The only other facility you would need would be space/barracks to store it in. Plenty of that at the camp. So your protests are futile.

Look how Turnagain decides to accept the death toll as being up to 950,000 !! He needs the figure as high as possible as it helps him in his other useless claim about the trillions and zillions of kgs of wood required to cremate such numbers. There were only 713,000 reported per Hoeffle/Korherr so god knows here he has got the extra 230,000 Jews from !!!!
Turnagain wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:24 am
IIRC, there was no evidence of a logging operation within a 10 mile radius of Treblinka. The wood detail (Glazar, "Trap With a Green Fence) said that the wood detail left the camp in the morning and returned in the evening carrying limbs broken from trees. The wood detail was about 25 men. Limbs broken from trees isn't sufficient fuel to cremate up to 6,000 cadavers per day. There were no clear cuts within walking distance of the camp. There were no logging operations anywhere near the camp.
No you don't remember correctly, according to Kues he claimed within a 2 mile radius the wooded areas amounted to less than 4 square kilometres, and with little evidence of felling. But again, this is only weak evidence, as wood could easily be transported in by train or truck.

You also appear to have a different version of Glazar's words compared to how Kues tells it. According to Kues, Glazer wrote that the trees that were felled were pine and they were split and sawn at a lumberyard at the lower camp and then delivered to the upper camp (where the cremations took place). Nowhere does Kues mention 'limbs broken from trees' . So I don't know what has happened here. Logs from pine trees would be adequate fuel for cremations. Also, why would wood be delivered to that area of camp ?


Turnagain wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:24 am
How much to cremate a baby or a body that has been lying in a grave for 3 months decomposed ? Would that be 400-600 kg too ?
You can quibble over the amount of fuel needed to cremate the alleged bodies at Treblinka if you wish. Reduce it by half if you wish but you still end up with millions of kg of fuel needed for the cremations and it wasn't available. Finito. End of story.
So you refuse to produce the source for your calculation, which usually means you have been busy in your shed inventing things again :lol:

I'll do more than half it, i'll reduce it by 90%. I have read Roberto Muelhenkamps' research on this and he has evidence to prove that the average kg of wood required to cremate one corpse would be between 8 and 31, depending on other factors like nationality of Jew and decomposition levels etc. The overall average was 12.18kg. So already you will need to seriously reassess your claim regarding the ludicrously high levels of wood you claim is required.
Turnagain wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:24 am
Who said you needed 1,500,000 kg of seasoned wood to cremate a batch of Jews ? What so ludicrous about using fat women as a first layer ? All that fat dripping from their bodies would be ideal to create the wick effect using charred wood as the wick . This is why Floss was successful with his experiments, he found the ideal way using a method requiring relatively little wood as fuel.
Cremation is endothermic, Lupus. Human bodies don't have enough heat calories in them to create the heat necessary to cremate a human cadaver. What don't you understand about that? There was no wick effect with the magic Jew barbeque. The bodies were separated from the kindling by the width of the rails. As the kindling burned down there would be an even greater separation. I'll repeat, cremation is endothermic. What don't you understand about that?
Your first sentence is irrelevant so why have you wrote it ? Are you still ignorant of the essential ingredient for the cremations, ie WOOD ? :roll:
Looks like you are not grasping the basic principles of the 'wick effect' . Looks like you are ignorant over the gap between the rails and the fuel. What evidence do you have to support your claim that the bodies were separated from the kindling by the width of the rails ? The concrete blocks stood 70 cm from the ground and the rails were placed on these (judgement of the dussledorf court) around the edge of a 1 metre deep pit ( statement of Ukrainian witness Pavel Leleko ).

So there was a gap of 1.7 metres maximum between the bottom of the pit and the first layer of bodies. The wood for fuel would be in the 1 metre pit, so even if the fuel was a metre high, then we are left with at least a 70cm gap between the kindling and the first layer of bodies. The fat from these women on the first layer would drip onto the wood below, it would become charred and bingo, you have a wick effect. Case closed.
Turnagain wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:24 am
So Turnagain doesn't care about all the other witnesses who observed /smelled the cremations.
There could have been some open pyre cremations of prisoners who either died en route or while at the camp. There is a mortality rate in any population especially given harsh travel and living conditions. Nobody is immune from death so there would have been the need for some body disposal at Treblinka. Nobody observed piles of bodies stacked ~30 bodies high on grates constructed from railroad rails. It didn't happen and the witnesses who claimed to have seen the magic Jew barbeque were lying. Just as Rajchman lied about seeing the blood of 250,000 Jews buried in 40 feet deep pits catch fire and burn for an entire night and the next day. Neither does blood have a chemical in it that renders it flammable as testified to by Czarny.
Sure there were deaths from non-gassing events, but you don't have any witnesses to claim this was the reason for the cremations, which basically lasted most of the day and stunk the place out for months. That must have been one hell of a number of Jews who died, to create such continuous cremations/smells ? Maybe 700,000 Jews all died en route in the trains ? And the remaining 230,000 all dies of typhus , yeah ?

So, what was the method of cremation for these 'non-gassed' Jews then ? What you got on that ?

So according to you all the witnesses claimed bodies were stacked 30 high . That's not what I have read, maybe you have other sources. I think you need to produce them. You still appear to under the impression a 'body' was an average sized human being , but fail to recognise that a large portion of these bodies were decomposed and just body parts in some cases, so it's not exactly the same as 30 high normal dead bodies is it ?

Keep on coming with the snippets of exaggeration from the witnesses. It doesn't help your cause one bit. So, some people exaggerate or are mistaken , big deal . It all becomes irrelevant when all the other evidence supports mass extermination and creamtion, beyond reasonable doubt.
Turnagain wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:24 am
Well, I wouldnt say the hermetically sealed chambers were a 'fantasy', more so they were an incorrect (but understandable) assumption from several witnesses.
Aha! The Nessie defense. The witnesses were full of more shit than a Christmas goose and didn't know their arse from their elbows about gas chambers. Of course the eleven eyewitnesses get morphed into just "several" witnesses. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
I wasn't aware that it was a requirement for the witnesses, mainly comprising of simple and poorly educated peasant-types, already traumatised and stressed out their heads , to be experts in the functioning of gas chamber extermination. When was that law brought in ?

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