"Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Discuss the alleged Nazi genocide or other wartime atrocities without fear of censorship. No bullying of fellow posters is allowed at RODOH. If you can't be civil, please address the argument and not the participants. Do not use disparaging alterations of the user-names of other RODOH posters or their family members. Failure to heed warnings from Moderators will result in a 24 hour ban (or longer if necessary).
Wurm
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:43 pm
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Wurm »

Roberto wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:09 pm
As to the number of killers, how are "a few thousand of real but low-ranking Soviet killers" supposed to have killed up to 2 million people, especially if the killing involved prior rounding-up and deportation to invisible Gulag II camps? Let's see your explanation of the manpower logistics of this supposed monumental invisible undertaking. The number of participants in the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews was about 200,000 according to German historian Dieter Pohl (http://www.taz.de/!5108024/), apparently not including local auxiliaries. Are the Soviets supposed to have been so much more efficient than the Germans in organizing and carrying out mass extermination?
Stalin would only have been interested the Western Jews. If a Polish Jew spent the war in a German camp in the occupied Soviet Union and actually told about this about this after the war, rather than slightly changing the story to a camp in Poland, so what? This does not contradict the Holocaust story, Polish Jews were everywhere in the German camp system during the war. So, Stalin would only have to hide/kill, say, 200,000 Western Jews. That would be nothing to Stalin, he likely killed more Ukrainians than that after the war, to name one example. At most a few thousand individuals would be needed for such killings. 200,000 guards and 40,000 camps/ghettos are only needed if having a labor camp system where the prisoners are not quickly killed.

SUPPORT RODOH!
Would you like to financially contribute to the upkeep of RODOH? Please kindly contact Scott Smith ([email protected]). Any and all contributions are welcome!


User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 30653
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Nessie »

Wurm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:58 pm
Roberto wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:09 pm
As to the number of killers, how are "a few thousand of real but low-ranking Soviet killers" supposed to have killed up to 2 million people, especially if the killing involved prior rounding-up and deportation to invisible Gulag II camps? Let's see your explanation of the manpower logistics of this supposed monumental invisible undertaking. The number of participants in the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews was about 200,000 according to German historian Dieter Pohl (http://www.taz.de/!5108024/), apparently not including local auxiliaries. Are the Soviets supposed to have been so much more efficient than the Germans in organizing and carrying out mass extermination?
Stalin would only have been interested the Western Jews. If a Polish Jew spent the war in a German camp in the occupied Soviet Union and actually told about this about this after the war, rather than slightly changing the story to a camp in Poland, so what? This does not contradict the Holocaust story, Polish Jews were everywhere in the German camp system during the war. So, Stalin would only have to hide/kill, say, 200,000 Western Jews. That would be nothing to Stalin, he likely killed more Ukrainians than that after the war, to name one example. At most a few thousand individuals would be needed for such killings. 200,000 guards and 40,000 camps/ghettos are only needed if having a labor camp system where the prisoners are not quickly killed.
Where did all those surviving Polish Jews go after the war? Then how come the official claim is that about 90% of, or about 3 million Polish Jews were killed? Where were they hidden?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

Wurm
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:43 pm
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Wurm »

Nessie wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:17 pm
Wurm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:58 pm
Roberto wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:09 pm
As to the number of killers, how are "a few thousand of real but low-ranking Soviet killers" supposed to have killed up to 2 million people, especially if the killing involved prior rounding-up and deportation to invisible Gulag II camps? Let's see your explanation of the manpower logistics of this supposed monumental invisible undertaking. The number of participants in the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews was about 200,000 according to German historian Dieter Pohl (http://www.taz.de/!5108024/), apparently not including local auxiliaries. Are the Soviets supposed to have been so much more efficient than the Germans in organizing and carrying out mass extermination?
Stalin would only have been interested the Western Jews. If a Polish Jew spent the war in a German camp in the occupied Soviet Union and actually told about this about this after the war, rather than slightly changing the story to a camp in Poland, so what? This does not contradict the Holocaust story, Polish Jews were everywhere in the German camp system during the war. So, Stalin would only have to hide/kill, say, 200,000 Western Jews. That would be nothing to Stalin, he likely killed more Ukrainians than that after the war, to name one example. At most a few thousand individuals would be needed for such killings. 200,000 guards and 40,000 camps/ghettos are only needed if having a labor camp system where the prisoners are not quickly killed.
Where did all those surviving Polish Jews go after the war? Then how come the official claim is that about 90% of, or about 3 million Polish Jews were killed? Where were they hidden?
United States, Israel, and other places. Many likely stayed in the Soviet Union, where they were not killed, but not allowed to leave either, and not reported in the censuses. See:
https://codoh.com/library/document/4227/

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 30653
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Nessie »

Wurm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:31 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:17 pm
........

Where did all those surviving Polish Jews go after the war? Then how come the official claim is that about 90% of, or about 3 million Polish Jews were killed? Where were they hidden?
United States, Israel, and other places. Many likely stayed in the Soviet Union, where they were not killed, but not allowed to leave either, and not reported in the censuses. See:
https://codoh.com/library/document/4227/
The key figure is missing. How many Polish Jews were liberated 1944-5 and where did they go? The linked to article is full of figures for other years. For denialism to be true, there needs to be evidence that as the camps were liberated, some 3 million Polish Jews (that historians and governments claim were killed) were in fact released and resettled. I am presuming you are not claiming they went home and accept that many Polsih cities, towns and villages never saw their Jewish population again. Though that in its self raises the question of, why not? Why did millions (90%) not go home and abandon property, jobs, houses, farms, businesses?

The vast majority were liberated by the Soviets. Is there any evidence, documents, witnesses to say what happened to them? Were they kept interred, or allowed home? What about the role of the Polish Government? Why did they say nothing about 3 million of their people living elsewhere? The answer needs to be specific to 1944-5.

The USA keeps immigration records, so show how many arrived who were Polish Jews? Israel did not come into place for another 4 years, so where were thsoe immigrants meantime? Israel also keeps records, so how many went there?

Your suggestion they just stayed in the Soviet Union needs evidencing. Three million Poles now living in the Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic States is a lot of people to suddenly feed, house, cloth and find work for. It is also a lot of people to produce no witnesses of that happening, at all.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

User avatar
blake121666
Posts: 3443
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:26 am
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by blake121666 »

Sanning's premise is that the Jews left the German-occupied areas before those areas were occupied.

https://codoh.com/library/document/4227/

There was a GERMAN MINORITY CENSUS OF 1938-1939

The Germans claimed at that time that the combined German/Austrian (but not including the Protectorate) lands had 691,163 persons mark themselves as Jews in this census.

But look at Sanning's "Table 1" on that webpage. He claims that there were only 263,000 Jews in "Germany/Austria" in 1939.

Why did 691,163 CLAIM they were Jews in the census then? If Sanning doesn't accept that there were 691,163 Jews in "Germany/Austria" in 1939 based on this census where people self-identified themselves as minorities (of which 691,163 identified as Jews) in the Reich, then what good are his figures? How is it possible that people would've identified as Jews in the Reich if they weren't?

His Polish data is bizarre as well. He is only pretending to be serious with this subject.

permanent_denial
Posts: 1690
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by permanent_denial »

blake121666 wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:10 am
Sanning's premise is that the Jews left the German-occupied areas before those areas were occupied.

https://codoh.com/library/document/4227/

There was a GERMAN MINORITY CENSUS OF 1938-1939

The Germans claimed at that time that the combined German/Austrian (but not including the Protectorate) lands had 691,163 persons mark themselves as Jews in this census.

But look at Sanning's "Table 1" on that webpage. He claims that there were only 263,000 Jews in "Germany/Austria" in 1939.

Why did 691,163 CLAIM they were Jews in the census then? If Sanning doesn't accept that there were 691,163 Jews in "Germany/Austria" in 1939 based on this census where people self-identified themselves as minorities (of which 691,163 identified as Jews) in the Reich, then what good are his figures? How is it possible that people would've identified as Jews in the Reich if they weren't?

His Polish data is bizarre as well. He is only pretending to be serious with this subject.
What do you mean "his Polish data is bizarre"?
The a Wizarding World of Exterminationism...
------------------------
Cremated remains of HOW MANY CORPSES (alternatively give volume or mass of cremated remains of individually identified analysis not given) has been unearthed from the three stated locations (AR camps) and definitively identified by scientific forensic analysis to be of human origin?
Nessie: NONE
------------------------
creative1: ALL conspiracies are bullshit.

User avatar
Nessie
Posts: 30653
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Nessie »

permanent_denial wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:02 am
blake121666 wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:10 am
Sanning's premise is that the Jews left the German-occupied areas before those areas were occupied.

https://codoh.com/library/document/4227/

There was a GERMAN MINORITY CENSUS OF 1938-1939

The Germans claimed at that time that the combined German/Austrian (but not including the Protectorate) lands had 691,163 persons mark themselves as Jews in this census.

But look at Sanning's "Table 1" on that webpage. He claims that there were only 263,000 Jews in "Germany/Austria" in 1939.

Why did 691,163 CLAIM they were Jews in the census then? If Sanning doesn't accept that there were 691,163 Jews in "Germany/Austria" in 1939 based on this census where people self-identified themselves as minorities (of which 691,163 identified as Jews) in the Reich, then what good are his figures? How is it possible that people would've identified as Jews in the Reich if they weren't?

His Polish data is bizarre as well. He is only pretending to be serious with this subject.
What do you mean "his Polish data is bizarre"?
You didn't bother to check the work, you just posted it because you think it has an answer.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

permanent_denial
Posts: 1690
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by permanent_denial »

Nessie wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:37 am
permanent_denial wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:02 am
blake121666 wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:10 am
Sanning's premise is that the Jews left the German-occupied areas before those areas were occupied.

https://codoh.com/library/document/4227/

There was a GERMAN MINORITY CENSUS OF 1938-1939

The Germans claimed at that time that the combined German/Austrian (but not including the Protectorate) lands had 691,163 persons mark themselves as Jews in this census.

But look at Sanning's "Table 1" on that webpage. He claims that there were only 263,000 Jews in "Germany/Austria" in 1939.

Why did 691,163 CLAIM they were Jews in the census then? If Sanning doesn't accept that there were 691,163 Jews in "Germany/Austria" in 1939 based on this census where people self-identified themselves as minorities (of which 691,163 identified as Jews) in the Reich, then what good are his figures? How is it possible that people would've identified as Jews in the Reich if they weren't?

His Polish data is bizarre as well. He is only pretending to be serious with this subject.
What do you mean "his Polish data is bizarre"?
You didn't bother to check the work, you just posted it because you think it has an answer.
I didn't ask you and neither did you answer the question. Go away.
The a Wizarding World of Exterminationism...
------------------------
Cremated remains of HOW MANY CORPSES (alternatively give volume or mass of cremated remains of individually identified analysis not given) has been unearthed from the three stated locations (AR camps) and definitively identified by scientific forensic analysis to be of human origin?
Nessie: NONE
------------------------
creative1: ALL conspiracies are bullshit.

Wurm
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:43 pm
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Wurm »

blake121666 wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:10 am
Sanning's premise is that the Jews left the German-occupied areas before those areas were occupied.

https://codoh.com/library/document/4227/

There was a GERMAN MINORITY CENSUS OF 1938-1939

The Germans claimed at that time that the combined German/Austrian (but not including the Protectorate) lands had 691,163 persons mark themselves as Jews in this census.

But look at Sanning's "Table 1" on that webpage. He claims that there were only 263,000 Jews in "Germany/Austria" in 1939.

Why did 691,163 CLAIM they were Jews in the census then? If Sanning doesn't accept that there were 691,163 Jews in "Germany/Austria" in 1939 based on this census where people self-identified themselves as minorities (of which 691,163 identified as Jews) in the Reich, then what good are his figures? How is it possible that people would've identified as Jews in the Reich if they weren't?

His Polish data is bizarre as well. He is only pretending to be serious with this subject.
The 691,163 number is from an "American Jewish Year Book" which did not list sources for claims.

Around 250,000 Jews in Germany/Austria in 1939 is a rather uncontroversial number, stated by the 1939 census, postwar by the Allies, and now by the USHMM:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/angap03.asp
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.ph ... d=10005468

Wurm
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:43 pm
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Wurm »

Nessie wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:52 pm
Wurm wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:31 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:17 pm
........

Where did all those surviving Polish Jews go after the war? Then how come the official claim is that about 90% of, or about 3 million Polish Jews were killed? Where were they hidden?
United States, Israel, and other places. Many likely stayed in the Soviet Union, where they were not killed, but not allowed to leave either, and not reported in the censuses. See:
https://codoh.com/library/document/4227/
The key figure is missing. How many Polish Jews were liberated 1944-5 and where did they go? The linked to article is full of figures for other years. For denialism to be true, there needs to be evidence that as the camps were liberated, some 3 million Polish Jews (that historians and governments claim were killed) were in fact released and resettled. I am presuming you are not claiming they went home and accept that many Polsih cities, towns and villages never saw their Jewish population again. Though that in its self raises the question of, why not? Why did millions (90%) not go home and abandon property, jobs, houses, farms, businesses?

The vast majority were liberated by the Soviets. Is there any evidence, documents, witnesses to say what happened to them? Were they kept interred, or allowed home? What about the role of the Polish Government? Why did they say nothing about 3 million of their people living elsewhere? The answer needs to be specific to 1944-5.

The USA keeps immigration records, so show how many arrived who were Polish Jews? Israel did not come into place for another 4 years, so where were thsoe immigrants meantime? Israel also keeps records, so how many went there?

Your suggestion they just stayed in the Soviet Union needs evidencing. Three million Poles now living in the Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic States is a lot of people to suddenly feed, house, cloth and find work for. It is also a lot of people to produce no witnesses of that happening, at all.
That many Polish Jews escaped to the Soviet Union and that the Soviet Union restricted Jewish emigration in the postwar period is uncontroversial. The only issue is the numbers.

"a lot of people to suddenly feed, house, cloth and find work for". Something definitely not problematic was finding work to do in the postwar period after the gigantic loss of lives and general destruction during the war. The Soviet Union even used large numbers of Germans civilians/POWs as forced laborer for rebuilding purposes. Some people starving never bothered Stalin.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 24 guests