"Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

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Bigfoot
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Bigfoot »

Roberto wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:49 pm
Yeah, 6 %. Do you know how many of the 34,313 Jews transported from the Netherlands to Sobibór between 2.3.1943 and 20.7.1943 survived? 19 in all, thereof 16 women and three men (Benz et al, Dimensionen des Völkermords, pp. 153-154.What examples of "only 6 % of a group of people transported to concentration camps" surviving are you talking about? And why should mortality among the supposed Jewish deportees have been so much higher than among (other) Gulag inmates or among the deported Volga Germans, Crimea Tatars and Chechens?
I think that it's me who present the most links of Dutch Jews, transported to Sobibor and never returned on both forums, Rodoh and Codoh. I do not believe, like Hannover, that Jews were transported to the east and after the war, a lot survived and emigrated to other country's. I do not believe that. I think both can be true. That Jews were transported to the east and also almost nobody survived. In particularly the Dutch Jews transported to Sobibor. In Sobibor there was a selection of Jews able to do work in sobibor or its subcamps, and only a handfull survived.

Like I mentioned before, I will present some paper trails of some Jews transported to the east via the AR-camps.

I will do that later (me too have a very busy live) Let me give you already one example regarding the Dutch Jews:

From Kues: Evidence of "gassed" jews in occupied eastern Territories
Kruk’s entry from 16 April 1943 is of extreme interest:
“I learn that for the past two weeks, two trains have been halted in Vilna, each with 25 cars of objects, apparently from the Dutch Jews. [...] Today a rumor is circulating that there are about 19,000 Dutch Jews in Vievis.”[130]

Later in his diary, Kruk acknkowledged that it where indead Dutch Jews. So may be there were Dutch Jews transported to the east via AR camp or Auschwitz. I will describe this in a post I have to prepare. The reason this is not confirmed by Jewish survivors is because there were no survivors of this group of Jews.

I also saw a documentary on Dutch TV regarding a Dutch Jew visiting Auschwitz but he was astonished when the guide told him that he was registered as being gassed in Auschwitz. However he survived and was transported instead of being gassed to another camp. I believe you can see this fragment in "Illuminationg the holocaust" a youtube documentary about revisionism. The Auschwitz administration corrected this." Transported, not gassed".

Another Example: Ernst Hollander. Who try to convince David Cole that two relatives (a brother and I believe a nephew) were gassed. However, a few days after the TV show it appeared they were not gassed but still alive! They were not gassed at arrival in Auschwitz but transported to Russia instead! It was a beautiful reunion.

You can see it here: Ernest Hollander reunited with his brother

I also doubt the claim that 6 million Poles were murdered by the nazies. I do not doubt, however, that many were murdered in massacres.

Here some proof:
Title: The Personal Letters of Stephen Wise.
Description: Boston, Boston Press. 1956. Hb. illustrated.
President of the World Jewish Congress
The personel letter of Stephen Wise: 1933-1949
one and a quarter to one and a half million remain homeless on the European continent, afraid to return to poland for they rightly dread progroms, with only one place to which to go- Palestina

So after the war, there were many Polish Jews who did not survive, but there were also many Polish Jews who did survive, according to a Jewish prominent leader, Stephen Wise.


Now a fragment of the book: Holocaust revised, written by an unknown Dutchman who whissed bo be incognito:

An interesting table about Polish population figures from: It's People, It's Society, It's Culture
(of Clifford Barnett 1752 Barnett, et al., Clifford. Poland: It’s People, It’s Society, It’s Culture. 1958. 472 page., 30
tables. HRAF Press, New Haven, CT.) .


That table presents the pre-war Polish population (1931) to 29,892,000 and post-war (1946) at 23,625,000. a difference of about 6 million (21%).
That seems to be the statement of "6 million Poland, of which" half the Jews ", so to confirm, but ... the opposite is the case.

An interesting table about Polish population figures from: It's People, It's Society, It's Culture
(of Clifford Barnett 1752 Barnett, et al., Clifford. Poland: It’s People, It’s Society, It’s Culture. 1958. 472 page., 30
tables. HRAF Press, New Haven, CT.) .


Bigfoot: I do not know how to upload the table available on my local PC, but I can tell you this:
*1000
1931: Total population 29892
1946: Total population 23625
1950: Total population 24533
1955: Total population 27544

Percent change:
1931:1946 -21
1936:1950 3.8
1950:1955 12.3


That table presents the pre-war Polish population (1931) to 29,892,000 and post-war (1946) at 23,625,000. a difference of about 6 million (21%).
That seems to be the statement of "6 million Poland, of which" half the Jews ", so to confirm, but ... the opposite is the case.

The table shows a nearly complete recovery of the population in ten years to 1955 - at 2 million. Between 1950 and 1955, growth of 3,011,000 in 5 years!
Could this birth have been due to death? No. The rise can also not be caused by Germans, Ukrainians or Lithuanians returning to Poland, because after the war hundreds of thousands of
them were murdered and expelled in Poland. Moreover, Poland is now one of the most ethnically homogeneous states. Was this excessive rise caused by Jews returning from the US, or may it indicate other causes (many too low numbers of Jews after the war)?
The 'loss' since 1931 (!) Of 6.27 million Poland has recovered in 63 post-war years for 63%! This is demographically impossible, especially since the post-mortem deaths in Poland exceeded the birth rate far beyond.

Leading Poland recently resounded over these remarkable population statistics with six million (supposedly by the Nazis) murdered Poland between 1939 and 1945.

Interview Jaruzelski in Izwestia, oktober 2009.
Jaruzelski: "Until now, I can not understand how my country counted 24 million Poland after the war, which in reality was no more than 14 million in the first census in 1970. Then suddenly the population explosion ended to swing steadily Around the current 38 million, a number of 14 million more, which remained unchanged since then. Apparently there was a strong aphrodisiac after the war leading to the birth of X-million new Poland, although millions died and the shops sold only vinegar . "

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Henry
Posts: 1117
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Henry »

Bigfoot wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:38 pm

Here some proof:
Title: The Personal Letters of Stephen Wise.
Description: Boston, Boston Press. 1956. Hb. illustrated.
President of the World Jewish Congress
The personel letter of Stephen Wise: 1933-1949
one and a quarter to one and a half million remain homeless on the European continent, afraid to return to poland for they rightly dread progroms, with only one place to which to go- Palestinal.
Image

Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Roberto »

Bigfoot wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:38 pm
Roberto wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:49 pm
Yeah, 6 %. Do you know how many of the 34,313 Jews transported from the Netherlands to Sobibór between 2.3.1943 and 20.7.1943 survived? 19 in all, thereof 16 women and three men (Benz et al, Dimensionen des Völkermords, pp. 153-154.What examples of "only 6 % of a group of people transported to concentration camps" surviving are you talking about? And why should mortality among the supposed Jewish deportees have been so much higher than among (other) Gulag inmates or among the deported Volga Germans, Crimea Tatars and Chechens?
I think that it's me who present the most links of Dutch Jews, transported to Sobibor and never returned on both forums, Rodoh and Codoh. I do not believe, like Hannover, that Jews were transported to the east and after the war, a lot survived and emigrated to other country's. I do not believe that. I think both can be true. That Jews were transported to the east and also almost nobody survived.
How do you know that any Jew taken to Sobibór was transported from there "to the east"? Little birdie told you?

And what is supposed to have killed them (almost) all there? The plague? The "Spanish" influenza? Smallpox? Typhus? Stalin's invisible henchmen and "Gulag II" camps?

And last but not least, how do you explain that all of the survivors, as well as all of the SS-men and Trawniki guards involved who were interrogated, as well as all local bystanders, recalled mass extermination at Sobibór (including, as concerns the survivors, the killing of their relatives), whereas none of these people (and also no one else) recalled transportation from Sobibór "to the east"?
Bigfoot wrote:In particularly the Dutch Jews transported to Sobibor. In Sobibor there was a selection of Jews able to do work in sobibor or its subcamps, and only a handfull survived.
So those able to work (i.e. the useful ones) are supposed to have been worked to death "in sobibor or its subcamps", while those unable to work (the useless ones) were transported to the east, where they would just be a burden to the local German administration with no benefit in return?
Your delusions are quite funny.

Here's what the transports consisted of, the number selected, and how the fate of the deportees was established by Dutch entities (translated excerpts from the judgment Landgericht München II Gz.: 1 Ks 115 Js 2496/08 dated 12.05.2011, published in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen Band XLIX, emphases added):
VI. The Victims

1. In the period from 2 April 1943 to 23 July 1943, in which the defendant was on duty at Sobibór, there arrived, besides other transports that cannot be established in detail, 15 railway transports from the Westerbork collection camp in the Netherlands and one transport from Izbica.

In the transports from Westerbork there were Jewish citizens who had been living in the Netherlands when the Netherlands were occupied by the Wehrmacht. They had been arrested by German police forces (SD and Gestapo) with assistance from the Dutch police and brought to the Westerbork camp. This had originally been a refugee camp for Jews who had fled from Germany, to which all Jews living in the Netherlands
were brought before they were deported to extermination and labor camps in the east.

The camp’s Jewish administration registered all persons living in the camp and also documented who was taken away with which transport to the east. The Jews were told that they would be brought to labor camps in the east. Almost nobody knew that the Germans had in Poland installed extermination camps and the transports would be going to one of these camps.

The transports included persons of all age groups. The eldest of the Jews taken away had been born in 1848. The youngest had been born in the Westerbork camp and were only a few weeks old. In every transport there were German citizens.

2. There were specifically the following transports:

a) Transport of 30 March 1943, arrived at Sobibór on 2 April 1943 with 1,263 persons; hereof at least 1,200 were killed in the gas chambers
still on the day of arrival; among them were the father of joint plaintiff Paul J. Hellmann, the sisters of joint plaintiff Robert Jean Wurms, the
brother of joint plaintiff Robert Cohen, the parents of joint plaintiff Ralph Erman and the brother of joint plaintiff Geertruida Zeehandelaar
.

b) Transport of 6 April 1943, arrived at Sobibór on 9 April 1943, with 1,992 persons; of these at least 1,900 were killed still on the day of arrival in the gas chambers; among them were the brother of joint plaintiff Aleida Keesing, the parents of joint plaintiff Robert Fransman and the parents and the brother of joint plaintiff Max Degen.

c) Transport of 13 April 1943, arrived at Sobibór on 16 April 1943, with 1,210 persons; of these at least 1,200 were killed in the gas chambers still on the day of arrival.

d) Transport of 20 April 1943, arrived at Sobibór on 23 April 1943, with 1,136 persons; hereof at least 1,100 were killed in the gas chambers still on the day of arrival; among them were the parents of joint plaintiff Ellen van der Spiegel, the mother and the sister of joint plaintiff Prof. Dr. Martin Haas and the parents of joint plaintiff Margaretha de Jong Simons.

e) Transport of 27 April 1943, arrived at Sobibór on 30 April 1943, with 1,193 persons; of these at least 1,100 were killed in the gas chambers still on the day of arrival.

f) Transport of 28 April 1943 from Izbica on trucks with 200 persons, of whom at least 160 were killed in the gas chamber.

Among those transported to Sobibór there was the joint plaintiff Thomas Blatt, his parents and his 10-year-old brother, furthermore the joint plaintiffs Philip Bialowitz and Simcha Bialowitz with their father and sisters, as well as the mother and brother of joint plaintiff Kurt Gutmann. The relatives of joint plaintiff Gutmann were Germans and had been living in Mülheim on the Ruhr, until they were arrested there and deported to the Izbica transit ghetto.

Thomas Blatt, then 15 years old, and the two brothers Simcha and Philip Bialowitz, 30 and 15 years old, were selected as working inmates in the Sobibór camp and survived the camp, because they managed to flee during the revolt and survive the remaining months of the war under adventurous circumstances. The joint plaintiffs’ relatives were killed in the gas chambers still on the day of arrival.

g) Transport of 4 May 1943, arrived at Sobibór on 7 May 1943, with 1,189 persons; hereof at least 1,100 were killed in the gas chambers still on the day of arrival; among them were the mother and the brother of joint plaintiff Judith Aschkenasy.

h) Transport of 11 May 1943, arrived at Sobibór on 14 May 1943 with 1,373 persons; of these at least 1,200 were killed in the gas chambers
still on the day of arrival; among them was the mother of joint plaintiff Marco de Groot.

i) Transport of 18 May 1943, arrived at Sobibór on 21 May 1943, with 2,461 persons; of these at least 2,300 were killed still on the day of arrival in the gas chambers; among them were the father of joint plaintiff Judith Aschkenasy, the mother of joint plaintiff Rudolf Salomon Cortissos, the
parents of joint plaintiff Leon Philip Herbert Vieijra and the mother of joint plaintiff Flam-Schrijver
.

j) Transport of 25 May 1943, arrived at Sobibór on 28 May 1943, with 2,865 persons; of these at least 2,800 were killed still on the day of arrival in the gas chambers; among them were the parents of joint plaintiff Jan Goedel, the mother of joint plaintiff Constanze Christine von Huizen, the father of joint plaintiff Riwka Bitterman, the parents of joint plaintiff Maurits Koopman as well as the parents and the sister of joint plaintiff Jetje Emden.

k) Transport of 1 June 1943, arrived at Sobibór on 4 June 1943, with 2,967 persons; of these at least 2,800 were killed still on the day
of arrival in the gas chambers; among them were the wife of joint plaintiff Jules Schelvis and the parents of joint plaintiff Rudi Westerveld.

The joint plaintiff Jules Schelvis was selected as a labor inmate together with another 80 inmates and sent to the Dorohucza camp.

l) Transport of 8 June 1943, arrived at Sobibór on 11 June 1943, with 3,030 persons; of these at least 2,800 were killed in the gas chambers still on the day of arrival; among them were the parents and the sister of joint plaintiff Charlotte Hueffener-Veffer and the parents of joint plaintiff Robert Cohen.

This train was the so-called "children’s transport". Almost 1,000 of the over 3,000 persons were younger than 14 years.

m) Transport of 29 June 1943, arrived at Sobibór on 2 July 1943, with 2,378 persons; of these at least 2,300 were killed in the gas chambers still on the day of arrival; among them were the father of joint plaintiff Jaap Simons, the parents and the sister of joint plaintiff David van Huiden, the father of joint plaintiff Marco de Groot and the mother of joint plaintiff Nathan Hakker.

n) Transport
of 6 July 1943, arrived at Sobibór on 9 July 1943, with 2,403 persons; of these at least 2,300 were killed in the gas chambers still on the day of arrival; among them were the sister of joint plaintiff Rosa Wertheimer-Bokkie and the parents of joint plaintiff Mary Richheimer-Leyden van Amstel.

o) Transport of 13 July 1943, arrived at Sobibór on 16 July 1943, with 1,965 persons; of these at least 1,900 were killed still on the day of arrival in the gas chambers; among them were the father of joint plaintiff Flam-Schrijver.

p) Transport of 20 July 1943, arrived at Sobibór on 23 July 1943, with 2,154 persons; of these at least 1,900 were killed in the gas chambers still on the day of arrival; among them were the parents of joint plaintiff Aleida Keesing, the parents of joint plaintiff Phillip Jacobs and the parents of joint plaintiff Jack Polak.
V. The Transportation Trains

The findings of fact about the arrival at Sobibór of the 15 deportation trains from Westerbork that are the subject of the proceedings and the people respectively deported in these trains are based on the so-called "Westerbork Lists", the statements of witness Houwink ten Cate and the expositions of court expert Dr. Grüter. Further information about these transports and about the transport from Izbica was provided by survivors of the Sobibór camp.
1. The so-called "Westerbork Lists" are lists with names, dates and places of birth, of persons who were transported with the respective deportation trains from collection camps in the Dutch town of Westerbork in the direction of Sobibór.

The historian Dr. Regina Grüter of the Dutch Red Cross, Section War Aftercare, explained the historical background and the origin of these lists in detail as an expert.
The Westerbork Camp Memorial site has since several years ago kept a digital file of Jewish victims deported from Westerbork, which is based on the memorial books of the War Graves Foundation (OGS). This is an organization that takes care of the graves of Dutch war victims worldwide. The OGS issued a number of memorial books, in which the victims are mentioned with their personal data. These data have been checked and complemented on hand of transport lists, which are archived at the Netherlands Red Cross and the Netherlands Institute for War Documentation.
Despite occasional errors discovered the Westerbork files have a high degree of reliability, which is due to an extremely meticulous procedure for establishing death in each individual case. They contain exclusively official data of death that have been judicially established by the Ministry of Justice and published in the Netherlands' official gazette. Before these data were taken over to the Westerbork files, furthermore each individual case had been presented to the registrar of the deceased person’s last domicile for verification.
The legal background of these death investigations is the Dutch law about measures for the issue of death certificates for missing people of 2 June 1949. The purpose of this law was to legally establish the death of missing persons, which was already known, in order to clarify possible consequences for the next of kin. For this purpose the Ministry of Justice created a special commission, whose task it was to carry out and supervise the procedure for establishing deaths, order investigations and finally make the official statement that the respective person was dead. In doing this the commission individually handled and checked every death notice. Information about personal data and family members were collected. These data were checked against those from the state inspection of registry offices and complemented where necessary. Thereafter the Information Bureau of the Dutch Red Cross carried out investigations about the fates of the missing and the circumstances of death. Only then the death of the respective persons could be officially established.
The Information Bureau of the Dutch Red Cross was formally subordinated to the same, but worked independently and was mandated and budgeted by the Netherlands Ministry of Social Affairs after World War II. The Information Bureau's task was to reconstruct the fate of the deceased and missing and provide information to next of kin. In carrying out this task the Information Bureau had at its disposal various sources, the most important being the transport lists, the files of the Jewish Council, the registration cards of the branch community administration in the former Westerbork transit camp as well as witness accounts of survivors. Furthermore the Information Bureau had intensive contacts to various official entities inside the country and abroad and requested information from these.
While the Information Bureau had immediately after the war concentrated its efforts mainly on informing next of kin, it soon concentrated its investigations on certain categories of deportees, for instance victims with certain transport destinations. Such investigations were recorded in special investigation reports. Thus about Sobibór a first report appeared already in 1946, followed by an expanded edition in 1947.
As the above-mentioned law requires establishing a deceased person's place and time of death, intensive investigations were carried out in this respect. Thus the questioning of next of kin was intensified and a control examination was introduced.
Of the transportation lists regarding deportations from the Westerbork camp, available as sources, there are three types in total. The lists of the first type are such on which the names of those to be deported were typed and which were read out before the transport in the barracks.
On the lists one often finds names crossed out; these are persons who managed to be deferred from deportation with various arguments. In such cases sometimes other persons were added to these lists; these additions probably were not always complete as changes were made on very short notice.
A second type of lists are such that were typed after the respective deportation train's departure and in which corrections from the corresponding list of the first type had already been inserted. One carbon copy of this list was sent to each the Patrimony and Pensions Institution as well as to other official entities, for instance the "Central Office for Jewish Emigration".
While the lists of the first type have been archived by the Dutch Red Cross, the lists of the second type are in the archives of the Netherlands Institute for War Documentation NIOD.
Additionally there is a third type of lists. These lists were typed by employees of the Westerbork Auxiliary Registry, founded on 17 January 1943. They had the purpose of informing the respective address registration offices of the deportees' former domiciles about their departure abroad, so that the Netherlands population register could be corrected accordingly. These lists, unlike the other two types, are ordered according to last domicile; there are also crossing-outs in these lists, which however do not necessarily mean a deferment from deportation. They could also be corrections carried out – eventually after the war – by official entities. Usually attached to the third type lists are the identification documents and ration cards from Westerbork stamped as invalid, which is marked by a cross on the list.
The third type lists are also in the archives of the Netherlands Red Cross.
As concerns the victims who died at Sobibór the status of information was relatively good from the beginning. To be sure, there are no documents that would prove the arrival of the trains that departed from Westerbork in the direction of Sobibór. On hand of reports from survivors and by checking the names of other deportees mentioned by survivors with the available list material it has been possible, however, to establish with certainty that the trains departing from Westerbork in the period that is the subject of these proceedings were in fact directed to Sobibór.
Whereas reports of survivors about deaths already during the transport from various European countries to the extermination camps are known, there are no such reports specifically regarding the transports from Holland to Sobibór. An eventual portion of persons who died already on the way to Westerbork [read: Sobibór, translator’s note] must therefore be considered extremely small.
It has also been researched with the help of information provided by survivors whether persons from trains that went from Westerbork to Sobibór were selected during the trip and sent to other labor camps. Therefore one can say with certainty that persons whose place of death is stated as being "Sobibór" were in fact killed there.
2. Expert Dr. Grüter explained that in what concerns the 15 transports from Westerbork to Sobibór in the period that is the subject of the proceedings the Westerbork list included a total of 1,939 deportees whose place of birth was recorded as having been in Germany, as follows:
Transport of 30 March 1943: 62 persons,
Transport of 6 April 1943: 100 persons,
Transport of 13 April 1943: 75 persons,
Transport of 20 April 1943: 68 persons,
Transport of 27 April 1943: 105 persons,
Transport of 4 May 1943: 90 persons,
Transport of 11 May 1943: 103 persons,
Transport of 18 May 1943: 215 persons,
Transport of 25 May 1943: 195 persons,
Transport of 1 June 1943: 100 persons,
Transport of 8 June 1943: 91 persons,
Transport of 29 June 1943: 100 persons,
Transport of 6 July 1943: 153 persons,
Transport of 13 July 1943: 156 persons,
Transport of 20 July 1943: 311 persons.
The list of these persons, according to the expert, was checked separately and individually as concerns nationality. The sources were the registration cards at the registry in Westerbork, the files of the Jewish Council and the European Central Database.
At the Westerbork registry registration cards were kept for persons who had been in the camp longer than four weeks. In these cards the nationality was mentioned in most cases. The files of these registration cards have been archived and could be assessed. The Jewish Council’s files were put together during the occupation and contain data of nearly all Jews who lived in the Netherlands during the occupation. In a part of these cards the nationality is also mentioned. The files are archived at the Netherlands Red Cross.
The European Central Database is a collection of the results of investigations regarding deceased and missing persons, which was put together after the end of the war by the Information Bureau of the Dutch Red Cross and is available there. In a small part of the personal cards the nationality is stated. A check regarding all 1,939 persons on hand of these sources turned out that 51 % had German nationality. 16 % had not been German nationals. For another 33 % the nationality could not be established with certainty on hand of the sources. It is furthermore possible that also persons not born in Germany had German nationality, although no quantitative information can be provided in this respect. In any case approximately 1,000 persons deported to Sobibór in the period that is the subject of the proceedings were German citizens, with German citizens in every one of the 15 trains.
3. The expert’s expositions were visible supported by long years of professional experience and intensive handling of the source material and raised no doubt that the "Westerbork Lists" are a basis for establishing the numerous victims that is solid and especially the result of intensive investigations.
As concerns the transport lists used the expert's expositions are also confirmed by the statements of witness Prof. Dr. Houwink ten Cate, who works as a historian at the Center for Holocaust Studies in Amsterdam and in this capacity also looked at the transport lists used as sources by expert Dr. Grüter and used them within the scope of his professional work. The witness reported that he had also seen three different types of lists, describing their structure and content – also on hand of copies. In this the witness made no conclusions of his own. There were no diverging finds that might call into question the expert statements of expert Dr. Grüter.
4. The findings from the expert exposition of expert Dr. Grüter are also in accordance with the statements of joint plaintiff Jules Schelvis when questioned as a witness.
Jules Schelvis, who is now 90 years old, dedicated himself comprehensively over a period of decades to reconstructing the history of Sobibór extermination camp and published a standard work in which he also published the Westerbork lists. He reported from his own memory in precise, clear and understandable words about his deportation.
He was brought with his young wife on the train leaving Westerbork for Sobibór on 1 June 1943. While his wife was killed still on the day of arrival, 4 June 1943, he managed by chance to join a selected group of 80 persons who were meant for labor activities, as the 81st man. He came to the Dorohucza labor camp.
[…]
5. On the whole there is thus no doubt that the 15 transportation trains from Westerbork arrived at Sobibór with the persons respectively mentioned in the Westerbork lists, and that the overwhelming majority of the passengers were killed immediately after arrival, including the relatives of the joint plaintiffs, for whose having died earlier there are no indications, especially not according to the research by expert Dr. Grüter concerning the read-out death certificates.
As nevertheless persons who can no longer be established may not have been immediately killed upon arrival because they were selected as labor inmates like in the one documented case of 4 June 1943 or because they died earlier, the jury court moderately corrected the ascertainable numbers of victims downwards from the basis of the Westerbork lists, this also in accordance with the statements of Dr. Pohl that nothing is known about further selections for "outer camps" at Sobibór.
Bigfoot wrote:Like I mentioned before, I will present some paper trails of some Jews transported to the east via the AR-camps.
Yeah, you will present documents at odds with all known documentary and eyewitness testimony that neither the meticulous work of the Dutch Red Cross and the other Dutch organizations mentioned in the above quote, not the research of any historian, nor any criminal investigator, nor any defense attorney, has been able to find in over 70 years. And also no "Revisionist", by the way. Jürgen Graf (who has desperately tried to find evidence in support of his "transit camp" theory in, among others, the archives of Russia and other countries of Eastern Europe, said it all about the absence of a "Revisionist" case for transit to the "Russian East" when, on page 1503 of MGK’s overlong response to the HC critique (critique under https://archive.org/details/BelzecSobib ... .ACritique, response under https://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/28-tecoar-long.pdf), he wrote the following (emphasis added):
Jürgen Graf wrote:The only chapter where our opponents could hope to come close to a draw was their fourth one, authored by Harrison and Romanov about the resettlement thesis. While we revisionists can easily prove that Bełżec, Sobibór and Treblinka were transit camps, we are unable to produce German wartime documents about the destination and the fate of the deportees.

So you’re going to produce "some paper trails of some Jews transported to the east via the AR-camps" like I’m Himmler’s grandson. What you will produce is the same meaningless junk that Mattogno, Graf and Kues produced: speculation based on contemporary newspaper articles (remember Saddam Hussein’s alleged weapons of mass destruction?) and what so-and-so claimed to have seen or heard about here-and-there in the occupied territories of the USSR east of Sobibór and the other AR camps. Strictly for the birds.
Jürgen Graf wrote:I will do that later (me too have a very busy live) Let me give you already one example regarding the Dutch Jews:
From Kues: Evidence of "gassed" jews in occupied eastern Territories
Kruk’s entry from 16 April 1943 is of extreme interest:
“I learn that for the past two weeks, two trains have been halted in Vilna, each with 25 cars of objects, apparently from the Dutch Jews. [...] Today a rumor is circulating that there are about 19,000 Dutch Jews in Vievis.”[130]
Later in his diary, Kruk acknkowledged that it where indead Dutch Jews. So may be there were Dutch Jews transported to the east via AR camp or Auschwitz. I will describe this in a post I have to prepare. The reason this is not confirmed by Jewish survivors is because there were no survivors of this group of Jews.
Yeah, they must have all succumbed to a particularly virulent (and yet undocumented) strain of some lethal infectious disease, or something like that. Except, of course, for the survivors who recalled mass extermination at Sobibór including the killing of their relatives, and whose testimony is confirmed as concerns mass extermination by every interrogated SS-man, Trawniki guard and local bystander. It speaks volumes about the "Revisionist" approach to history that, while on the one hand unreasonably high demands are made as concerns evidence proving mass extermination, on the other hand the flimsiest of indications are considered solid evidence supporting "Revisionist" fantasies. When it serves the "Revisionist" cause, rumors count more than direct testimonies, and so on.

As to Mr. Kruk, I wrote about him in my deconstruction of Kues’ speculations, which you can find in the blog article series’ starting under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ws-in.html. Kues’ speculations in connection with Mr. Kruk are addressed under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... in_16.html. More about Kues’ "Kruk" speculations you find under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... assed.html and on pp. 256-258 and 375-378 of the Holocaust Controversies’ critique of Mattogno, Graf and Kues (https://archive.org/details/BelzecSobib ... .ACritique).
Bigfoot wrote:I also saw a documentary on Dutch TV regarding a Dutch Jew visiting Auschwitz but he was astonished when the guide told him that he was registered as being gassed in Auschwitz. However he survived and was transported instead of being gassed to another camp. I believe you can see this fragment in "Illuminationg the holocaust" a youtube documentary about revisionism. The Auschwitz administration corrected this." Transported, not gassed".
So one swallow makes a summer when it serves "Revisionism"? In the real world exceptions to the rule confirm the rule. Note that, in order to be registered in or according to the camp records as being "gassed in Auschwitz", the person in question had to be registered as an inmate of Auschwitz in the first place. He must have been confounded with someone else when a list of the names of inmates and their fate was put together. Big deal.
Bigfoot wrote:Another Example: Ernst Hollander. Who try to convince David Cole that two relatives (a brother and I believe a nephew) were gassed. However, a few days after the TV show it appeared they were not gassed but still alive! They were not gassed at arrival in Auschwitz but transported to Russia instead! It was a beautiful reunion.
You can see it here: Ernest Hollander reunited with his brother
Another of those swallows? I watched a part of that show and didn’t hear anything about the brother having been supposedly killed at Auschwitz. Starting at 11:18, Hollander tells a rather different story. The brother in question was the only one he didn’t see dying. He states that he met somebody in Israel who told him that his brother, who was fighting with the Yugoslavian partisans, had been hanged by the Germans after they had captured him. So he had assumed that his brother was not alive. Then somebody recalled that he had seen the brother in question alive in a labor camp in Yugoslavia. So the supposed death and survival of that brother had nothing to do with Auschwitz, and "transported to Russia instead" is bullshit. Did you even watch that video?
Bigfoot wrote:I also doubt the claim that 6 million Poles were murdered by the nazies.
So do I. About 2.7 million Jewish and a maximum of about 1.8-2 million non-Jewish citizens of prewar Poland is more like the real thing.
Bigfoot wrote:I do not doubt, however, that many were murdered in massacres.
Here some proof:
Title: The Personal Letters of Stephen Wise.
Description: Boston, Boston Press. 1956. Hb. illustrated.
President of the World Jewish Congress
The personel letter of Stephen Wise: 1933-1949
one and a quarter to one and a half million remain homeless on the European continent, afraid to return to poland for they rightly dread progroms, with only one place to which to go- Palestina
So after the war, there were many Polish Jews who did not survive, but there were also many Polish Jews who did survive, according to a Jewish prominent leader, Stephen Wise.
So "Jewish prominent leader, Stephen Wise" didn’t know what he was talking about, big deal. Putting Wise’s ignorant claims above detailed country-by-country studies of Jewish mortality in Nazi-occupied Europe, including two in the immediate postwar period and others (like that of Hilberg) in later decades, is further proof of the deplorable "Revisionist" approach to history. Detailed demographic studies are topped by someone’s bullshit when it serves the "Revisionist" cause. Pathetic.
Bigfoot wrote:Now a fragment of the book: Holocaust revised, written by an unknown Dutchman who whissed bo be incognito:
An interesting table about Polish population figures from: It's People, It's Society, It's Culture
(of Clifford Barnett 1752 Barnett, et al., Clifford. Poland: It’s People, It’s Society, It’s Culture. 1958. 472 page., 30
tables. HRAF Press, New Haven, CT.) .
That table presents the pre-war Polish population (1931) to 29,892,000 and post-war (1946) at 23,625,000. a difference of about 6 million (21%).
That seems to be the statement of "6 million Poland, of which" half the Jews ", so to confirm, but ... the opposite is the case.
An interesting table about Polish population figures from: It's People, It's Society, It's Culture
(of Clifford Barnett 1752 Barnett, et al., Clifford. Poland: It’s People, It’s Society, It’s Culture. 1958. 472 page., 30 tables. HRAF Press, New Haven, CT.) .

Bigfoot: I do not know how to upload the table available on my local PC, but I can tell you this:
*1000
1931: Total population 29892
1946: Total population 23625
1950: Total population 24533
1955: Total population 27544
Percent change:
1931:1946 -21
1936:1950 3.8
1950:1955 12.3
That table presents the pre-war Polish population (1931) to 29,892,000 and post-war (1946) at 23,625,000. a difference of about 6 million (21%).
That seems to be the statement of "6 million Poland, of which" half the Jews ", so to confirm, but ... the opposite is the case.
The table shows a nearly complete recovery of the population in ten years to 1955 - at 2 million. Between 1950 and 1955, growth of 3,011,000 in 5 years!
Could this birth have been due to death? No. The rise can also not be caused by Germans, Ukrainians or Lithuanians returning to Poland, because after the war hundreds of thousands of them were murdered and expelled in Poland. Moreover, Poland is now one of the most ethnically homogeneous states. Was this excessive rise caused by Jews returning from the US, or may it indicate other causes (many too low numbers of Jews after the war)?
The 'loss' since 1931 (!) Of 6.27 million Poland has recovered in 63 post-war years for 63%! This is demographically impossible, especially since the post-mortem deaths in Poland exceeded the birth rate far beyond.
Leading Poland recently resounded over these remarkable population statistics with six million (supposedly by the Nazis) murdered Poland between 1939 and 1945.
Interview Jaruzelski in Izwestia, oktober 2009.
Jaruzelski: "Until now, I can not understand how my country counted 24 million Poland after the war, which in reality was no more than 14 million in the first census in 1970. Then suddenly the population explosion ended to swing steadily Around the current 38 million, a number of 14 million more, which remained unchanged since then. Apparently there was a strong aphrodisiac after the war leading to the birth of X-million new Poland, although millions died and the shops sold only vinegar . "
Which only means that Jaruzelski didn’t know what he was talking about.

Under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Poland you see that the birth rate of the Polish population before the war was 32.7 per thousand in 1921, reached a maximum of 35.6 per thousand in 1923 and then gradually declined, with some increases in between, to 24.4 per thousand in 1938. Due to the high death rate (which was 20.9 per thousand in 1921 and still stood at 13.8 per thousand in 1938), the annual population increase never exceeded 18.5 per thousand (in 1925), had gone down to 14.7 per thousand in 1931 and declined from then onward to 10.6 per thousand in 1938. Nevertheless, between 1931 and 1938 the population of Poland (including the eastern territories later annexed to the Soviet Union) had increased from about 31,935,000 to about 34,849,000, an increase of 9.12 %.

Then came the war, and after the war (see under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Poland) , the population of the new Polish territory (i.e. minus the eastern territories annexed to the Soviet Union, plus the formerly German territories added to Poland according to the Potsdam Conference, whose German population was mostly expelled) was about 23,777,000, the loss of 11,072,000 being both due wartime excess mortality and territorial changes. The crude birth rate in 1946 was 24 per thousand, slightly below that of 1938.

Then, starting in 1947, Poland started experiencing the post-World War II baby boom (see under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%8 ... _baby_boom) , which peaked at 31 per thousand in 1951 – higher than that of 1931, but lower than that of every year before 1931. At the same time the crude death rate kept declining (which suggests a relatively young population and better living conditions and health services) and was below 10 per thousand by 1955. The increase in Poland’s fertility rate during those years, which peaked at 3.745 in 1951, was not much different from that of the United States:
Family size increased sharply throughout the baby boom: the average woman bore 3.09 children in 1950 which increased to 3.65 children per family in 1960; the peak was in 1957, when the figure stood at 3.77. Most women became pregnant with their first child within seven months of their wedding; between 1940 and 1960, the number of families with three children doubled and the number of families having a fourth child quadrupled.
In the United States more babies were born during the seven years after 1948 than the previous 30, causing a shortage of teenage babysitters. Madison, New Jersey, for example, only had 50 high-school girls to babysit for a town of 8,000, and any sitter could have had two sitting jobs at once if desired. $5 of the $7 that a California couple spent to go to the movies in 1950 went to the babysitter.


Even during the peak year of the baby boom in Poland (1951, 31 per thousand), the crude birth rate was somewhat below the world average between 1950 and 1955, which was 37.2 per thousand (see under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_rate#United_States). On the other hand, the crude death rate in that year in Poland (12.4 per thousand, up from 11.6 per thousand in 1950) was somewhat below the world average (19.1 per thousand between 1950 and 1955, see under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortality_rate).

Bottom line, there’s nothing implausible about Poland’s demographic recovery between 1946 and 1955 and especially between 1950 and 1955. A baby-boom like that in other countries, plus a marked reduction of the death rate starting in 1947, nicely explain this evolution. Jaruzelski is full of shit, and so is that anonymous Dutch author.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Bigfoot »

A few months ago I saw a video, which I thought today it would be intrested for this thread.
The video is about a Dutch man, his name is Wim, who volunteers the SS (Wiking division I believe) in the east front. It had also English subtitles.
Unfortunately, it is marked now as hate speech. The man only told in the video what his experiences where, nothing more and nothing less. Because it is marked as hate speech, some functions are disabled, like the English subtitles, but may be you can use the standard translation of youtubes, via properties, which is not very good but may be good enougf.
May be it is marked as hate speech because he mentioned a big massacre, and piles of corpses of orthodox Christians in cellars. According to the man interviewed, the NKVD were blamed for these murders.

Another thing is that the SS people were welcomed by the civilians as the people who released them from the enemy.

The very interesting fact is that the man told that the Ukraine people (so not the German soldiers) started to pick up all the Jewish people who where suspected of communist tights. The Dutch man asked a German officer if they had to stop this, but the German officer said: No, it is their business, we cannot interfere in this. They must handle their own problems.
So this is an eye witness who are telling that not only the Germans, but also Russian people participate in hunting the Jews. That is interesting and may be explained why the mass graves of so many Jews are still hidden.
Here the video marked as hate speechs, the interesting part starts at 5:10, I made a translation of that part:

Eye witness of Ukraine razia against communist Jews

Not yet marked as hate speech, unfortunately without English subtitles
Eye witness of Ukraine razia against communist Jews

Translation 5:15
Wim: In Dnjerpopetrosj they show us the cellars, when the Russians withdrawn. Orthodox Christians and Catholics were shot and gathered in the cellars. The NKVD exterminate those people. (I) Can you remember the first contact with the Ukraine people?
Wim: Yes, that was marvellous. They celebrate us, like the Americans by the Netherlands when they entered The Netherlands at the end of the war. We get food, a Church was celebrating and we were blessed by them. (...)
And then the Ukraine people started Razias, with billets. It were Jews who where captured by the Ukraines. They were beaten with the Billets by the Ukraines. I asked my officer, should we stop this? But the officer said, no we do not interfere, it is their business

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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Nessie »

Bigfoot wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:23 pm
A few months ago I saw a video, which I thought today it would be intrested for this thread.
The video is about a Dutch man, his name is Wim, who volunteers the SS (Wiking division I believe) in the east front. It had also English subtitles.
Unfortunately, it is marked now as hate speech. The man only told in the video what his experiences where, nothing more and nothing less. Because it is marked as hate speech, some functions are disabled, like the English subtitles, but may be you can use the standard translation of youtubes, via properties, which is not very good but may be good enougf.
May be it is marked as hate speech because he mentioned a big massacre, and piles of corpses of orthodox Christians in cellars. According to the man interviewed, the NKVD were blamed for these murders.

Another thing is that the SS people were welcomed by the civilians as the people who released them from the enemy.

The very interesting fact is that the man told that the Ukraine people (so not the German soldiers) started to pick up all the Jewish people who where suspected of communist tights. The Dutch man asked a German officer if they had to stop this, but the German officer said: No, it is their business, we cannot interfere in this. They must handle their own problems.
So this is an eye witness who are telling that not only the Germans, but also Russian people participate in hunting the Jews. That is interesting and may be explained why the mass graves of so many Jews are still hidden.
Here the video marked as hate speechs, the interesting part starts at 5:10, I made a translation of that part:

Eye witness of Ukraine razia against communist Jews

Not yet marked as hate speech, unfortunately without English subtitles
Eye witness of Ukraine razia against communist Jews

Translation 5:15
Wim: In Dnjerpopetrosj they show us the cellars, when the Russians withdrawn. Orthodox Christians and Catholics were shot and gathered in the cellars. The NKVD exterminate those people. (I) Can you remember the first contact with the Ukraine people?
Wim: Yes, that was marvellous. They celebrate us, like the Americans by the Netherlands when they entered The Netherlands at the end of the war. We get food, a Church was celebrating and we were blessed by them. (...)
And then the Ukraine people started Razias, with billets. It were Jews who where captured by the Ukraines. They were beaten with the Billets by the Ukraines. I asked my officer, should we stop this? But the officer said, no we do not interfere, it is their business
The videos are marked as "not available in your country". You say "started to pick up all the Jewish people who where suspected of communist tights" so that is Communists who are being targeted, then you switch to "Russian people participate in hunting the Jews". The video is also entitled "against Communist Jews". So this reads as Ukrainians attacking Communists more than people who are Jewish.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by been-there »

Bigfoot wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:23 pm
A few months ago I saw a video, which I thought today it would be of interest for this thread.
The video is about a Dutch man, his name is Wim, who was a volunteer in the SS (Wiking division I believe) on the eastern front. It had also English subtitles.
Unfortunately, it is marked now as hate speech. The man only told in the video what his experiences where, nothing more and nothing less. Because it is marked as hate speech, some functions are disabled, like the English subtitles, but may be you can use the standard translation of youtubes, via properties, which is not very good but may be good enough.
May be it is marked as hate speech because he mentioned a big massacre, and piles of corpses of orthodox Christians in cellars. According to the man interviewed, the NKVD were blamed for these murders.

Another thing is that the SS people were welcomed by the civilians as the people who released them from the enemy.

The very interesting fact is that the man told that the Ukraine people (so not the German soldiers) started to pick up all the Jewish people who where suspected of communist ties. The Dutch man asked a German officer if they should stop this, but the German officer said: ‘no, it is their business, we cannot interfere in this. They must handle their own problems.’
So this is an eye witness who is telling that not only the Germans, but also Russian people participated in hunting Jews. That is interesting and may be explained why the mass graves of so many Jews are still hidden.
Here the video marked as hate speech, the interesting part starts at 5:10, I made a translation of that part:

Eye witness of Ukraine razia against communist Jews

Not yet marked as hate speech, unfortunately without English subtitles
Eye witness of Ukraine razia against communist Jews

Translation 5:15
Wim: In Dnjerpopetrosj they show us the cellars, when the Russians withdrawn. Orthodox Christians and Catholics were shot and gathered in the cellars. The NKVD exterminate those people. (I) Can you remember the first contact with the Ukraine people?

Wim: Yes, that was marvellous. They celebrate us, like the Americans by the Netherlands when they entered The Netherlands at the end of the war. We get food, a Church was celebrating and we were blessed by them. (...)
And then the Ukraine people started Razias, with billets. It were Jews who where captured by the Ukraines. They were beaten with the Billets by the Ukraines. I asked my officer, should we stop this? But the officer said, no we do not interfere, it is their business


Fascinating. Thanks for this.

It certainly helps to answer the rather self-referential, unintelligent but common 'true-believer' question of ‘how they could be made to simply disappear’.
Naturally it is difficult — even during a vast war — to make a few million people "simply disappear". But it would be much “simpler” and easier to make the documentation that tells us where they went disappear. That would be easy, AFTER the war is over and when you control all the documentation and all the news media, etc., as the Allied victors did.
The freedom of the internet has changed that to some degree.

Conversely, if their bodies remain in precise locations — as is claimed — it should be extremely difficult — even during a vast war — to make a few million bodies "simply disappear". Their remains should still be there. So if the 'extermination camp' story is true, it should be "simple" to prove it.
Yet here we all are, 75 years later, still waiting.
I wonder why...?
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Nessie »

been-there wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:02 pm
....

It certainly helps to answer the rather self-referential, unintelligent but common 'true-believer' question of ‘how they could be made to simply disappear’.
Naturally it is difficult — even during a vast war — to make a few million people "simply disappear". But it would be much “simpler” and easier to make the documentation that tells us where they went disappear. That would be easy, AFTER the war is over and when you control all the documentation and all the news media, etc., as the Allied victors did.
The freedom of the internet has changed that to some degree.

Conversely, if their bodies remain in precise locations — as is claimed — it should be extremely difficult — even during a vast war — to make a few million bodies "simply disappear". Their remains should still be there. So if the 'extermination camp' story is true, it should be "simple" to prove it.
Yet here we all are, 75 years later, still waiting.
I wonder why...?
It has been proven and the remains are at the AR camps, Ponary etc. It is only a group of openly anti-Semitic, pro-Nazi, CT lovers (or combination thereof) who do not accept the proof. I wonder why.....?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Wurm »

Bigfoot wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:23 pm
A few months ago I saw a video, which I thought today it would be intrested for this thread.
The video is about a Dutch man, his name is Wim, who volunteers the SS (Wiking division I believe) in the east front. It had also English subtitles.
Unfortunately, it is marked now as hate speech. The man only told in the video what his experiences where, nothing more and nothing less. Because it is marked as hate speech, some functions are disabled, like the English subtitles, but may be you can use the standard translation of youtubes, via properties, which is not very good but may be good enougf.
May be it is marked as hate speech because he mentioned a big massacre, and piles of corpses of orthodox Christians in cellars. According to the man interviewed, the NKVD were blamed for these murders.

Another thing is that the SS people were welcomed by the civilians as the people who released them from the enemy.

The very interesting fact is that the man told that the Ukraine people (so not the German soldiers) started to pick up all the Jewish people who where suspected of communist tights. The Dutch man asked a German officer if they had to stop this, but the German officer said: No, it is their business, we cannot interfere in this. They must handle their own problems.
So this is an eye witness who are telling that not only the Germans, but also Russian people participate in hunting the Jews. That is interesting and may be explained why the mass graves of so many Jews are still hidden.
Here the video marked as hate speechs, the interesting part starts at 5:10, I made a translation of that part:

Eye witness of Ukraine razia against communist Jews

Not yet marked as hate speech, unfortunately without English subtitles
Eye witness of Ukraine razia against communist Jews

Translation 5:15
Wim: In Dnjerpopetrosj they show us the cellars, when the Russians withdrawn. Orthodox Christians and Catholics were shot and gathered in the cellars. The NKVD exterminate those people. (I) Can you remember the first contact with the Ukraine people?
Wim: Yes, that was marvellous. They celebrate us, like the Americans by the Netherlands when they entered The Netherlands at the end of the war. We get food, a Church was celebrating and we were blessed by them. (...)
And then the Ukraine people started Razias, with billets. It were Jews who where captured by the Ukraines. They were beaten with the Billets by the Ukraines. I asked my officer, should we stop this? But the officer said, no we do not interfere, it is their business
That seems to be dated early in the war. Possible killings by locals/pogroms and the Einsatzgruppen early in the war apply to Jews already present in the Soviet Union. Not to the Jews deported there later. Furthermore, the deported Jews would almost certainly have been guarded in some way, and thus not easily killed by locals/pogroms. Unless the locals were the guards, but that is not the situation described above.

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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Wurm »

Roberto wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:09 pm
And yet another thing: if Stalin had had those deported Jews killed in order to concoct a tail about the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews, would the Stalinist government and its successors not have expressly claimed that Nazi Germany had pursued a policy of exterminating Jews all over Europe and killed up to 6 million of them, and that Jewish victims of the Nazi genocide were accordingly in a different category than other victims of Nazi crimes? When (especially in the later years of Stalin's rule, which were the ones in which this invisible mass killing of Jews is supposed to have taken place if I understood correctly) is the Stalinist government supposed to have made such claim? Which of its successors claimed or acknowledged that there had been a Nazi program of genocide, not just haphazard and indiscriminate violence, specifically targeting Jews?
No particular reason for Stalin to make propaganda for the six million number or unique Jewish suffering. Alleged mass killings of Slavs were likely more important for Soviet propaganda. But the National Socialist anti-Semitism was well-known, so if Germany was going to be accused of various mass killings of various groups, then Jews must be very prominent on the list of victims. Also, mass killings of Jews had long been alleged by the (Soviet) Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee (and the other Allies), so there was no option but to continue prominently on this propaganda track at the end of the war.

Also, http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_ ... uniqueness

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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Duke Umeroffen »

I suppose Wurm is that guy at Skeptic, mmmm Monstrous then?
Viking; North Utsire; South Utsire; Forties; Cromarty; ; Firth; Tyne; Dogger. Fisher; German Bight; Humber; Thames *; Dover;

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