"Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

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Greg Gerdes
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Greg Gerdes »

Here's another slam dunk in your face creative1:

#44 - The MAXIMUM number of the 33 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Belzec identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Roberto Muehlenkamp's single numeric answer: 0
 
#46 - The MAXIMUM number of the 15 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Chelmno identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Roberto Muehlenkamp's single numeric answer: 0
 
#48 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Roberto Muehlenkamp's single numeric answer: 0
 
#50 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Roberto Muehlenkamp's single numeric answer: 0

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Greg Gerdes
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Greg Gerdes »

creative1:
So you see what I mean? It's not like these denier claims are like laws of physics, right? Many have reasonable explanations.
Since when is espousing a "magically disappearing jew / 'huge mass graves' theory" considered "reasonable"?

Oh that's right, I forgot that I'm dealing with a delusionalist.

:lol:

Roberto
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Roberto »

Wurm wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:48 pm
Roberto wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:48 pm
Wurm wrote:*"Not mentioned in the Gulag records" - again, the argument is that these deportations occurred outside the normal Gulag system.
Yeah, an enormous but completely invisible "Gulag II" that left no witnesses, no documents, no nothing, whereas both are abundant as concerns the well known "Gulag !". Preposterous.
The ordinary Gulag was not a well-kept secret because some people returned from limited sentences and one of the purposes of the system was not to be a secret but to scare other into not disobeying the regime.

Now, if a regime really wanted to kill in secret without traces, it would of course do everything very different. No documents in the first place, killings located to a few places where all traces could be destroyed afterwards, very limited numbers of personnel who would be killed themselves or all keep quiet because they had directly participated in the mass killings and who anyhow had no evidence of what had happened.
Which of course is utter nonsense. No regime that "wanted to kill in secret without traces", especially to the claimed extent, has ever managed to keep its endeavor complete secret. And "no documents" is also utter nonsense, as the related organization would create some paper trail. It's also nonsense that the killings would involve "very limited numbers of personnel" - if they were done by shooting they would have involved a lot of personnel, and if they were done by segregating the victims large camps where they were meant to die of starvation and disease it would have required even more. Killing all those perpetrators (who moreover were killers themselves and would exactly have let themselves be killed just like that) would have been quite an endeavor. Keeping "all quiet", even in the glasnost and Yeltsin period when revelation of Communist atrocities was the order of the day, would have been impossible. And so on.
Wurm wrote:Anyhow, Stalin's successors, if they learned of the existence of such a mass killings of Jews, would have ordered all traces of this to be utterly destroyed if Stalin had not already done so, and they had many decades of Communist rule to utterly annihilate all evidence.
Yeah, especially Krushchev, who as a member of Stalin's closest circle would have learned about these supposed killings. Krushchev, who was the first Soviet politician to denounce Stalin's crimes, would hardly have kept silent about those supposed mass killings.

Bottom line, all of Wurm's could-woulda-dooda "arguments", which he indulges in for utter lack of such evidence as would correspond to a crime of such proportions, are a load of blatant nonsense. And the fact that "Revisionists" shun solid evidence incriminating their Nazi heroes while indulging fantasies based on mere conjecture and the flimsiest of supposed "indications", clearly shows that historical facts are the least these people are interested in.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Roberto
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Roberto »

Roberto wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:11 am
Greg Gerdes continues on ignore until he has done a lot of homework.

See my post under
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2987&p=111754#p111754

However, anyone else (e.g. Bigfoot) is welcome to ask GG's questions by copying them into one of this posts if he considers them pertinent. I'll respond to these questions to the best of my knowledge as time permits.

Bigfoot, that not "Russian soul". That's Russian soil to a small extent (not many Jews in Russia proper), but mainly the soil of present-day Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic Countries.

Tell me, just how many "millions" according to "the orthodox holocaust version" do you have in mind?

And how large a part of the places of burial do you expect to have been located, considering for comparison what part of the places of burial of Stalin's victims have been located?
Well, Bigfoot?
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Roberto
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Roberto »

Bigfoot wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:15 pm
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:08 pm

What examples of "only 6 % of a group of people transported to concentration camps" surviving are you talking about? And why should mortality among the supposed Jewish deportees have been so much higher than among (other) Gulag inmates or among the deported Volga Germans, Crimea Tatars and Chechens?
I will also answer your other questions. I am also working on a document, proving that paper trails exist containing information that many Jews were deported to east, but probably these Jews died/were murdered because there are no survivors with testimonies for a few examples of groups I found, like a group of 19.000 Dutch Jews and a Group of thousands French Jews.
I don't think you can come up with something more solid than the nonsense produced by Thomas Kues, which is based on "so-and-so claimed to have seen or heard about a transport of Jews who spoke this and that foreign language", "this and that contemporary newspaper reported this and that", "there must have been French Jews in the Soviet Union because the Soviets so claimed in a radio message", and other hollow conjectures. But I'm curious to see what you got. If it's significantly better than what one of the foremost "Revisionist" scholars (before he withdrew from the scene) managed to produce, it will make you a "Revisionist" hero overnight.
Bigfoot wrote:I do not believe that the Jews were gassed in the extermniation camps for many (forensic) reasons.
So what "many (forensic) reasons" do you have in mind, specifically regarding Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibór and Treblinka?
Bigfoot wrote:I do believe that they were mainly transported to the east (1.4 million via AR camps, the rest (approximately 600.000)) via other camps, not all of them were transporte to the east, perhaps 1.8 million. However I do think that it is possible that there were no survivors. Both can be truth.
Believe is the right term. In the absence of even a shred of evidence suggesting such deportations "to the east", where one should expect a huge paper trail and thousands upon thousands of witnesses (especially from among the deportees themselves, but also from among the Germans who would have organized and/or carried out and/or guarded the supposed transports, the local Polish civilians who would have seen transport upon transport leaving the camps in easterly direction, the German officials who would have been in charge of receiving, accommodating and further processing the deportees in the "Russian East", the German servicemen who would have been in charge of guarding them, the locals in the "Russian East" who would have witnessed these deportees' arrival and further processing), what you need to support a claim that 2 million deportees (your addition is incorrect) were taken to the "Russian East" via certain camps is a quasi-religious belief.
Bigfoot wrote:Yet about my claim of the 6 percent. Almost the same percentage of Dutch Jews survived the concentration camps. So it is possible that a small percentage survived, without murders.
Yeah, sort of like it is possible that you fell out of bed last night and broke your nose. The evidence suggests otherwise.
Bigfoot wrote:In the Netherlands it is well known that hundreds of Dutch man of the village of Putten were taken to the most brutal concentration camp, because of the raid of Putten. In fact, at the end of the war there were also razzia's catching Dutch civilians (like my grandfather as a matter of fact, who do not return after the war either).

You can read it here The Raid of Putten

The remaining 602 men left Amersfoort on 11 October and taken to Neuengamme concentration camp as forced labour. During the transportation, 13 men escaped by jumping from the train. From Neuengamme, some were moved on to other camps or sub-camps, including Ladelund, Bergen-Belsen, Meppen-Versen, Beendorf, Wöbbelin and Malchow. Only 48 men returned after the end of the war, but another 5 died from their mistreatment after they arrived home. Some people returned crippled as they were kept in small cages they could not stand in. A total of 552 men and 1 woman died, mostly victims of malnutrition, slave labour and infectious diseases.

So 43 survived, that is 7 percent. So I was not completely right about the 6%, although I read it somewhere. I see also that I do not taken into account that 13 escaped by jumping of the train. But that only a small percentage survived remains
Yeah, 6 %. Do you know how many of the 34,313 Jews transported from the Netherlands to Sobibór between 2.3.1943 and 20.7.1943 survived? 19 in all, thereof 16 women and three men (Benz et al, Dimensionen des Völkermords, pp. 153-154. Have a look at the Dutch Archives' documents available online under
https://www.archieven.nl/nl/zoeken?miv ... le=Sobibor. Documents 55-63 are name lists of Jews transported from Westerbork to Sobibór. Documents 13-20 are records of depositions by Sobibór witnesses, including Dutch citizens like Selma Engel-Wijnberg. In documents 46-49 you find depositions of former Sobibór SS-men. What you won't find in any of these documents is any mention of transports from Sobibór to what Korherr called the "Russian East". But you are welcome to give it a try.
Bigfoot wrote:This proves that all those sceptic people are wrong, claiming that infectious disease (like tyfus) was not an important reason for dying in concentration camps.
What are you talking about?
Bigfoot wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:08 pm
Bigfoot wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:06 pm
It is an interesting fact that Stalin was in favour of a Palestine state ruled by Jews during the second world war.
Was he? I didn't know that. Sources?
No sources for your "Palestine state" thing, Bigfoot?
Bigfoot wrote:The reason: the Jews were very dominant in the communistic revolution, a substantial part of the members of the communistic party contains Jews. He hoped that with a land as Palestina, owned by the Jews, the communistic influence, and also Russian influence, would be available also in the Middle East.

Also new to me.
No sources for your "he hoped that with a land as Palestina" thing. I see. By the way, your claim that Stalin wanted a land "owned by the Jews" doesn't exactly go well with your other conjecture that Stalin murdered all or most of those 2 million Jewish deportees to the "Russian East, does it?
Bigfoot wrote:And just what percentage of Communist Party members and Soviet government officials were Jews under Stalin?

Now about the Jews and the Russia communistic party:
Noble price winner Alexander Solzhenitsyn wrote a book about this subject
The Guardian-Solzhenitsyn breaks last taboo of the revolution
with the following conclusion:
Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who first exposed the horrors of the Stalinist gulag, is now attempting to tackle one of the most sensitive topics of his writing career - the role of the Jews in the Bolshevik revolution and Soviet purges.
In his latest book Solzhenitsyn, 84, deals with one of the last taboos of the communist revolution: that Jews were as much perpetrators of the repression as its victims. Two Hundred Years Together - a reference to the 1772 partial annexation of Poland and Russia which greatly increased the Russian Jewish population - contains three chapters discussing the Jewish role in the revolutionary genocide and secret police purges of Soviet Russia.
All very interesting, but I see no percentage here.
Bigfoot wrote:Regarding the influence of the Jews in the communistic party


Robert Wilton, the Russian correspondent of The Times. In 1920 he published a book in French, Les Derniers Jours des Romanofs, which gave the racial background of all the members of the Soviet government. (This does not appear in the later English translation, for some odd reason.) After the publication of this monumental work, Wilton was ostracised by the press, and he died in poverty in 1925. He reported that the Central Committee of the Bolshevik Party was made up as follows


Here an overview:
NAME NATIONALITY
Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Lourie (Larine) Jew
Ouritski Jew
Volodarski Jew
Rosenfeldt (Kamanef) Jew
Smidovitch Jew
Sverdlof (Yankel) Jew
Nakhamkes (Steklof) Jew
Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian
Krylenko Russian
Lounatcharski Russian

“The Council of the People’s Commissars comprises the following:

MINISTRY NAME NATIONALITY
President Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian
Foreign Affairs Tchitcherine Russian
Nationalities Djugashvili (Stalin) Georgian
Agriculture Protian Armenian
Economic Council Lourie (Larine) Jew
Food Schlichter Jew
Army & Navy Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
State Control Lander Jew
State Lands Kauffman Jew
Works V. Schmidt Jew
Social Relief E. Lelina (Knigissen) Jewess
Public Instruction Lounatcharsky Russian
Religions Spitzberg Jew
Interior Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Hygiene Anvelt Jew
Finance Isidore Goukovski Jew
Press Volodarski Jew
Elections Ouritski Jew
Justice I. Steinberg Jew
Refugees Fenigstein Jew
Refugees (assist.) Savitch Jew
Refugees (assist.) Zaslovski Jew


“The following is the list of members of the Central Executive Committee:

NAME NATIONALITY
Sverdlov (president) Jew
Avanessof (sec.) Armenian
Bruno Lett
Babtchinski Jew
Bukharin Russian
Weinberg Jew
Gailiss Jew
Ganzburg Jew
Danichevski Jew
Starck German
Sachs Jew
Scheinmann Jew
Erdling Jew
Landauer Jew
Linder Jew
Wolach Czech
Dimanstein Jew
Encukidze Georgian
Ermann Jew
Joffe Jew
Karkline Jew
Knigissen Jew
Rosenfeldt (Kamenef) Jew
Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Krylenko Russian
KrassikofSachs Jew
Kaprik Jew
Kaoul Lett
Ulyanov (lenin) Russian
Latsis Jew
Lander Jew
Lounatcharski Russian
Peterson Lett
Peters Lett
Roudzoutas Jew
Rosine Jew
Smidovitch Jew
Stoutchka Lett
Nakhamkes (Steklof) Jew
Sosnovski Jew
Skrytnik Jew
Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
Teodorovitch Jew
Terian Armenian
Ouritski Jew
Telechkine Russian
Feldmann Jew
Froumkine Jew
Souriupa Ukranian
Tchavtchevadze Georgian
Scheikmann Jew
Rosental Jew
Achkinazi Imeretian
Karakhane Karaim (Jew)
Rose Jew
Sobelson (Radek) Jew
Sclichter Jew
Schikolini Jew
Chklianski Jew
Levine (Pravdine) Jew


“The following is the list of members of the Extraordinary Commission of Moscow:

NAME NATIONALITY
Dzerjinski (president) Pole
Peters (vice-president) Lett
Chklovski Jew
Kheifiss Jew
Zeistine Jew
Razmirovitch Jew
Kronberg Jew
Khaikina Jewess
Karlson Lett
Schaumann Jew
Leontovitch Jew
Jacob Goldine Jew
Glaperstein Jew
Kniggisen Jew
Latzis Lett
Schillenkuss Jew
Janson Lett
Rivkine Jew
Antonof Russian
Delafabre Jew
Tsitkine Jew
Roskirovitch Jew
G. Sverdlof Jew
Biesenski Jew
Blioumkine Jew
Alexandrevitch Russian
I. Model Jew
Routenberg Jew
Pines Jew
Sachs Jew
Daybol Lett
Saissoune Armenian
Deylkenen Lett
Liebert Jew
Vogel German
Zakiss Lett
So sorry for Mr. Wilton, but his list of names, if accurate, refers to the year 1920. My question was about the Stalin era.

And as you like lists of names, you may want to look up the lists of German Jews deported to Chelmno (5,193 names), Belzec (356 names), Sobibor (6,439), Treblinka (7,965 names) and Auschwitz (53,644 names). Do you think you can find one of these who was transported to the "Russian East" from any of these lovely places? If so, just go ahead. Good luck.

As concerns Sobibór (to where, as mentioned above, 34,313 of your fellow Dutch citizens were deported), you may also be interested in the translated excerpts from judgments by courts of the German Federal Republic available under
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/holocau ... tml#p28328 and
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/holocau ... tml#p34471.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Wurm
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Wurm »

Roberto wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:47 pm
Wurm wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:48 pm
Roberto wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:48 pm
Wurm wrote:*"Not mentioned in the Gulag records" - again, the argument is that these deportations occurred outside the normal Gulag system.
Yeah, an enormous but completely invisible "Gulag II" that left no witnesses, no documents, no nothing, whereas both are abundant as concerns the well known "Gulag !". Preposterous.
The ordinary Gulag was not a well-kept secret because some people returned from limited sentences and one of the purposes of the system was not to be a secret but to scare other into not disobeying the regime.

Now, if a regime really wanted to kill in secret without traces, it would of course do everything very different. No documents in the first place, killings located to a few places where all traces could be destroyed afterwards, very limited numbers of personnel who would be killed themselves or all keep quiet because they had directly participated in the mass killings and who anyhow had no evidence of what had happened.
Which of course is utter nonsense. No regime that "wanted to kill in secret without traces", especially to the claimed extent, has ever managed to keep its endeavor complete secret. And "no documents" is also utter nonsense, as the related organization would create some paper trail. It's also nonsense that the killings would involve "very limited numbers of personnel" - if they were done by shooting they would have involved a lot of personnel, and if they were done by segregating the victims large camps where they were meant to die of starvation and disease it would have required even more. Killing all those perpetrators (who moreover were killers themselves and would exactly have let themselves be killed just like that) would have been quite an endeavor. Keeping "all quiet", even in the glasnost and Yeltsin period when revelation of Communist atrocities was the order of the day, would have been impossible. And so on.
Wurm wrote:Anyhow, Stalin's successors, if they learned of the existence of such a mass killings of Jews, would have ordered all traces of this to be utterly destroyed if Stalin had not already done so, and they had many decades of Communist rule to utterly annihilate all evidence.
Yeah, especially Krushchev, who as a member of Stalin's closest circle would have learned about these supposed killings. Krushchev, who was the first Soviet politician to denounce Stalin's crimes, would hardly have kept silent about those supposed mass killings.

Bottom line, all of Wurm's could-woulda-dooda "arguments", which he indulges in for utter lack of such evidence as would correspond to a crime of such proportions, are a load of blatant nonsense. And the fact that "Revisionists" shun solid evidence incriminating their Nazi heroes while indulging fantasies based on mere conjecture and the flimsiest of supposed "indications", clearly shows that historical facts are the least these people are interested in.
Krushchev as a honest man? The same Krushchev who headed the investigations who found that 100,000 were killed at Babi Yar and that Germans killed Soviets by forcing them to climb up trees before cutting them down? Khrushchev who participated in the Great Purge by having many of his friends and colleagues in Moscow killed? Who more generally was complicit in the killings of thousands in Moscow? Who later moved to Ukraine in order to purge the region? The same Krushchev who participated in the killings of many hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians after the war?

Sure, Krushchev would have been interested in exposing everything that occurred during Stalin's regime... Most likely he himself had a very active role during the postwar period in the killings of Jews deported by Germany during the war to Ukraine.

What is more likely, that a regime as harsh, brutal, and secretive as Stalin's (and his successors) could conceal the killings of some hundreds of thousands of individuals who everyone already believed had been killed by Hitler (and killing at most a few thousand of real but low-ranking Soviet killers in addition if necessary), or that the absurdities mentioned in these articles are correct?

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Belzec,_So ... inka_camps
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Ge ... _Holocaust

Roberto
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Roberto »

Wurm wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:05 pm
Roberto wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:47 pm
Wurm wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:48 pm
Roberto wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:48 pm


Yeah, an enormous but completely invisible "Gulag II" that left no witnesses, no documents, no nothing, whereas both are abundant as concerns the well known "Gulag !". Preposterous.
The ordinary Gulag was not a well-kept secret because some people returned from limited sentences and one of the purposes of the system was not to be a secret but to scare other into not disobeying the regime.

Now, if a regime really wanted to kill in secret without traces, it would of course do everything very different. No documents in the first place, killings located to a few places where all traces could be destroyed afterwards, very limited numbers of personnel who would be killed themselves or all keep quiet because they had directly participated in the mass killings and who anyhow had no evidence of what had happened.
Which of course is utter nonsense. No regime that "wanted to kill in secret without traces", especially to the claimed extent, has ever managed to keep its endeavor complete secret. And "no documents" is also utter nonsense, as the related organization would create some paper trail. It's also nonsense that the killings would involve "very limited numbers of personnel" - if they were done by shooting they would have involved a lot of personnel, and if they were done by segregating the victims large camps where they were meant to die of starvation and disease it would have required even more. Killing all those perpetrators (who moreover were killers themselves and would exactly have let themselves be killed just like that) would have been quite an endeavor. Keeping "all quiet", even in the glasnost and Yeltsin period when revelation of Communist atrocities was the order of the day, would have been impossible. And so on.
Wurm wrote:Anyhow, Stalin's successors, if they learned of the existence of such a mass killings of Jews, would have ordered all traces of this to be utterly destroyed if Stalin had not already done so, and they had many decades of Communist rule to utterly annihilate all evidence.
Yeah, especially Krushchev, who as a member of Stalin's closest circle would have learned about these supposed killings. Krushchev, who was the first Soviet politician to denounce Stalin's crimes, would hardly have kept silent about those supposed mass killings.

Bottom line, all of Wurm's could-woulda-dooda "arguments", which he indulges in for utter lack of such evidence as would correspond to a crime of such proportions, are a load of blatant nonsense. And the fact that "Revisionists" shun solid evidence incriminating their Nazi heroes while indulging fantasies based on mere conjecture and the flimsiest of supposed "indications", clearly shows that historical facts are the least these people are interested in.
Krushchev as a honest man? The same Krushchev who headed the investigations who found that 100,000 were killed at Babi Yar and that Germans killed Soviets by forcing them to climb up trees before cutting them down?
100,000 killed at Babi Yar may be too high an estimate, but that doesn't mean it was made in bad faith. As to the trees thing (not necessarily an improbable act of sadism by concentration camp guards, the presence of trees provided), are you sure that is claimed in a report about BY signed by Krushchev? Let's see that report, or at least a duly sourced translation thereof.
Wurm wrote:Khrushchev who participated in the Great Purge by having many of his friends and colleagues in Moscow killed? Who more generally was complicit in the killings of thousands in Moscow? Who later moved to Ukraine in order to purge the region? The same Krushchev who participated in the killings of many hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians after the war?
Yep, that same man, especially as concerns mass crimes that he had not participated in. And it's nice to see that your standards of evidence when it comes to Communist crimes are as lax as your standards of evidence are unreasonably rigorous when it comes to Nazi crimes.
Wurm wrote:Sure, Krushchev would have been interested in exposing everything that occurred during Stalin's regime... Most likely he himself had a very active role during the postwar period in the killings of Jews deported by Germany during the war to Ukraine.
Except, of course, that he couldn't have had an "active role" in something that never happened.

Deportation of about 1.5 million Jews from the AR camps and Chelmno (about 2 million if you also include AB) to the Reichskommissariat Ostland, the Reichskommissariat Ukraine or the Soviet territories under military administration would not only have left thousands upon thousands of potential witnesses from among the deportees themselves (which "Revisionists" feebly try to put on Stalin's killing record despite there being no evidence at all to such enormous mass killing ordered by Stalin). It would also have left numerous witnesses from among the neighboring Polish villagers who would have watched trainload upon trainload full of deportees leaving Treblinka and the other camps, the Germans who would have organized, carried out and guarded the transports, the Germans who would have received, accommodated, guarded and further processed the deportees in the aforementioned territories, etc., besides a huge paper trail that the Nazis would have had no reason to destroy as it would have been their best protection against claims that they had murdered these people. Yet none of this supposed evidence ever made it into the hands of historians and criminal investigators west of the Iron Curtain, and none was ever produced as evidence for the defense at any trial. How do your explain this utter absence of exculpatory evidence without resorting to hollow conspiracy theories, Wurm?

Another thing: it is known from what documentary evidence regarding Treblinka was left that trains taking deportees there returned on the same day. So how are the deportees supposed to have been taken from Treblinka to Riga, Minsk, Kovno, Kiev etc.? Are trains supposed to have come all the way from those places to pick them up?

By the way, transports of German and Czech Jews to Riga, Minsk and Kovno are well documented. None of these transports had a stopover at any of the supposed transit camps, of course.

And yet another thing: if Stalin had had those deported Jews killed in order to concoct a tail about the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews, would the Stalinist government and its successors not have expressly claimed that Nazi Germany had pursued a policy of exterminating Jews all over Europe and killed up to 6 million of them, and that Jewish victims of the Nazi genocide were accordingly in a different category than other victims of Nazi crimes? When (especially in the later years of Stalin's rule, which were the ones in which this invisible mass killing of Jews is supposed to have taken place if I understood correctly) is the Stalinist government supposed to have made such claim? Which of its successors claimed or acknowledged that there had been a Nazi program of genocide, not just haphazard and indiscriminate violence, specifically targeting Jews?

I could go on, but let's leave it at that for now.
Wurm wrote:What is more likely, that a regime as harsh, brutal, and secretive as Stalin's (and his successors) could conceal the killings of some hundreds of thousands of individuals who everyone already believed had been killed by Hitler (and killing at most a few thousand of real but low-ranking Soviet killers in addition if necessary), or that the absurdities mentioned in these articles are correct?

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Belzec,_So ... inka_camps
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Ge ... _Holocaust
"These articles" contain the usual heady Metapedia mixture of ignorance, falsehoods, demonstrably nonsensical claims of logistical impracticability (based on, guess who, my old friends Mattogno et al, see in this respect by blog series starting under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... togno.html as concerns mass graves and under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... pedia.html as concerns cremation) and silly non-arguments of the "this and that other killing method was claimed before, oh how frightfully shocking", "this and that source claimed this and that number of victims, oh my goodness" and "they coulda-shouda-woulda built cremation ovens at the AR camps" variety, etc. I'll get to them in detail when I have time (I also have a life).

As to the number of killers, how are "a few thousand of real but low-ranking Soviet killers" supposed to have killed up to 2 million people, especially if the killing involved prior rounding-up and deportation to invisible Gulag II camps? Let's see your explanation of the manpower logistics of this supposed monumental invisible undertaking. The number of participants in the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews was about 200,000 according to German historian Dieter Pohl (http://www.taz.de/!5108024/), apparently not including local auxiliaries. Are the Soviets supposed to have been so much more efficient than the Germans in organizing and carrying out mass extermination?

And as to what is more likely, the answer to this question is simple: the explanation that takes the most evidence into account and requires the fewest conjectures unsubstantiated by evidence is the one likeliest to be the correct one (I think that's called the Occam's Razor principle). Which in this case means that the accepted historical record wins hands down over far-flung speculations unsupported by evidence.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Greg Gerdes
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Greg Gerdes »

Greg Gerdes wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:33 pm
Here's another slam dunk in your face creative1:

#44 - The MAXIMUM number of the 33 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Belzec identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Roberto Muehlenkamp's single numeric answer: 0
 
#46 - The MAXIMUM number of the 15 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Chelmno identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Roberto Muehlenkamp's single numeric answer: 0
 
#48 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Roberto Muehlenkamp's single numeric answer: 0
 
#50 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Roberto Muehlenkamp's single numeric answer: 0
creative1, are you still with us - or did those slam dunks in your face make you run away like Roberto from a bet?

Roberto
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Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Roberto »

Yawn ...

Greg Gerdes continues on ignore until he has done a lot of homework. Of which he doesn't seem have to done any, instead repeating his infantile multicolored, multi-sized hysterical hollering, loaded with self-projecting invective and so boring as to be somniferous. See my post under
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2987&p=111754#p112140.

Anyway, it's a good thing for critics of "Revisionism" (and a bad thing for "Revisionists") that Gerdes is allowed to spam this forum with his infantile multicolored, multi-sized hysterical hollering, loaded with self-projecting invective and so boring as to be somniferous.

The uninformed reader looking up this forum will thus get the (not wholly incorrect) impression that "Revisionism" is a realm of moronic, monomaniacal, loudmouthed bores. If Gerdes were a plant sent here by some "Industry" organization to make "Revisionism" look like shit, he couldn't be doing a better job.

The CODOH moderator seems to have realized that and thus banned Gerdes' "CWhite" alter ego in order to make the CODOH cesspit look just a little less idiotic than it did with "CWhite" howling around.

If Scott et al want to allow Gerdes to ruin what however remote impression of credibility "Revisionism" may have left, at least as far as RODOH is concerned, that's just fine with me.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Greg Gerdes
Posts: 861
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:26 pm
Contact:

Re: "Where did they go?" - "Stalin killed them"

Post by Greg Gerdes »

Greg Gerdes wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:33 pm
Here's another slam dunk in your face creative1:

#44 - The MAXIMUM number of the 33 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Belzec identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Roberto Muehlenkamp's single numeric answer: 0
 
#46 - The MAXIMUM number of the 15 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Chelmno identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Roberto Muehlenkamp's single numeric answer: 0
 
#48 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Roberto Muehlenkamp's single numeric answer: 0
 
#50 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Roberto Muehlenkamp's single numeric answer: 0
creative1, are you still with us - or did those slam dunks in your face make you run away like Roberto from a bet?

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