David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

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Loog
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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Loog »

Huntinger wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:50 am

It is most likely the L in the Höfle telegram refers to the ZG outpost Lazow or Lupkow close to the border with Slovakia.
As most people know the GG extended its borders south after Barbarossa, which meant that Belzec was no longer a border camp; this will explain why in the Höfle telegram there were no transports to that place.
The telegram gave train arrivals in the prior fortnight, as well as cumulative arrivals until 31 December 1942.
Recorded arrivals until 31 December 42, L 12761, B 0, S 515, T 10335

Huntinger, I really don't want to talk to you, since no offense your research is horrible and it's not worth my time arguing against something like that. You can get better, I believe in you, but it's going to be tough and take a lot of hard work. No offense.

But for now, let me just clear up what you're getting wrong here since it's an easy one.

The exact translation of the Hoefle report is:

"
Re: 14-day report Operation REINHARD. Reference: radiogram from there.
Recorded arrivals until 31 December 42, L 12761, B 0, S 515, T 10335 totaling
23611. Situation [ ... ] 31 December 42, L 24733, B 434508, S 101370,
T 71355, totaling 1274166.
SS and police leader of Lublin, HOEFLE, Sturmbannführer. "

So there were zero arrivals at Belzec for 14 days prior to 31, December 1942

After that is presented another, much higher set of numbers which are seen as the overall death totals. Belzec is listed at 434,508. The cumulative totals here more or less confirm the numbers presented earlier for transports to these camps, which were based on train records. Historians established the rough death tolls at each camp this way, and the numbers match those reported in this document (eg in 1978 Yitzhak Arad stated the death toll at Treblinka was at least 763,000 people between July 1942 and April 1943*), which was first discovered in the year 2000.

*This is what I call good research. btw the total for Treblinka is incorrectly listed at 71355 and should be 713555, which is what you get when you subtract 24733, 434508, 101370 from 1274166.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Huntinger »

Loog wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:36 am
*This is what I call good research. btw the total for Treblinka is incorrectly listed at 71355 and should be 713555, which is what you get when you subtract 24733, 434508, 101370 from 1274166.
Thank you Loog, I am well aware of the statistic of Belzec up to the telegram. If you can differentiate those totals prior to Barbarossa and afterwards that would be most appreciated.

I think you will find that Belzec stopped at the expansion of the GG when it was no longer functioning as a ZG outpost.
This would explain why there no arrivals.
I suspect strongly that if there were more Höfle telegrams giving two weekly reports Belzec would remain close to zero since shortly after the 5 Dec 1941, perhaps slightly before. The only question is why it is still mentioned at all, though it is necessary for Korherr to make up the final statistics based on those transported through. Belzec is an important part of those figures of evictions.

If someone, can provide hard evidence of transportations to Belzec after Barbarossa that might nullify the ZG hypothesis.
However there was a ZG district customs office at Belzec; Command post Tomaszow-Ost, 600 men, managed by Ritzka Customs Councilor.
Himmlers order of 19 July, 1942, demanded that the Generalgovernement was to be cleared of Js by 31 December, 1942, almost a year after Barbarossa; the question remains why these were not cleared out earlier. There are reports of 1942 transports but these seem fake.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Loog »

the "hard evidence" (funny cuz you can always claim they're fabricated) is the train records. There theoretically should be some way to verify, if you're willing to go to the actual archives. In my google drive (folder: secondary recommendations) you will be able to find a pdf of Y Arads book, Belzec Sobibor Treblinka. In appendix A are 15 pages of train departures with dates, all from 42-43 based on deportation from ghettos.


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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Huntinger »

Loog wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:53 am
the "hard evidence" (funny cuz you can always claim they're fabricated) is the train records. There theoretically should be some way to verify, if you're willing to go to the actual archives. In my google drive (folder: secondary recommendations) you will be able to find a pdf of Y Arads book, Belzec Sobibor Treblinka. In appendix A are 15 pages of train departures with dates, all from 42-43 based on deportation from ghettos.

Thank you, at this stage I am more interested in the Zollgrenzschutz presence in the area and how the transports relate to them. One does not have customs border officials without a border, normally. Your friends at Klowns have mentioned there were several Belzec camps.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Admiral E. Rastus »

Loog wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:20 am
Admiral E. Rastus wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:06 pm
It's a ridiculous question. It's as if I were to ask: what are the accommodations of ethnic Finns not working physical labor living in Bulgaria in the past decade, and how are they distributed?
You bring up an interesting point, can you find another mass population transfer as poorly documented as this one?
Almost every mass population transfer from the Assyrian Empire on.
Loog wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:20 am
Volga germans suffered tremendously during their expulsion from Ukraine, yet even though USSR was the perpetrator here, concrete records exist and have been studied.
The way I remember it, some of those unassigned to collective farms or labor groups were reportedly dumped in the steppes and had to scavenge to build or repair makeshift housing for the coming winter with some of their belongings confiscated. The concrete records are mostly the train rides, and even as to the overall German deportees the best assessment as to the % of Germans they deported from the existing population is based on comparing the deportees to a projection from the Soviet census. The eviction notices are incomplete. The individual housing situation is not something that's solved in the documents. The deaths are still guesswork.
Loog wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:20 am
One can find wartime examples of population movements initiated by Germans that are copiously documented in comparison. For example the expulsion of Poles from Zamojszczyzna. This included 30,000 children, 13k of which passed through this camp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_KZ again it's all about the details

In comparison perhaps half a million Jewish children were processed during 42/43, of which no further documentation of exists.
Not quite, and from what I've read Zamosc processing is a good case study for why your demands are spurious. I'm sure you can say "concrete records" and "copiously documented" all day, though.
Loog wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:20 am
Most German POWs were held by USSR were repatriated in 1946

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_pr ... viet_Union

according to this table only 1.1 million were held in 1946
Didn't use the term POW, did I?
Loog wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:20 am
Additionally many POWs (more in fact than the soviets) were held by the western allies. During Nuremberg trials defense lawyers were able to able to get 136,000 sworn affidavits from SS members

http://www.nizkor.com/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tg ... 7-03.shtml

"Those 136,000 statements in the collection were divided into various subjects, and they form part of the defence case of the SS."

Many of these affidavits seemingly contradicted the official story (not really but this is a separate argument).

"On the question of whether the SS members recognized the destruction of Jewry as an aim of the leaders, 1,593 out of 1,637 affidavits which mention this problem state that the Jewish problem was not to be solved by killing, or by the so-called "final solution"
Yes, so you have 170,000 affidavits potentially giving a different story as to the charges, of which 136,213 sworn, and at least 1,637 in a specific rubric. Pertinently as to what I said:
A. Mostly from camps in the American and British zones; to a smaller extent, from the French zone; none at all from the Russian zone and from Austria.
a phenomenon described as creating
considerable deficiencies
And that's just on former Altreich territory. Of course, "POWs" can have their personnel file read and transferred around to less accessible jurisdictions or locations, at least until the Nuremberg dogma sets in.

I don't think the cache of 136,213 sworn statements was maintained, testifying to certain archival practices when it comes to certain documents if the case. However, you seem to think it suffices that they are analyzed in a single sentence.
On top of all this, the bringing to light of the existence of holding camps for Jews unfit for work, would not in itself have promoted any "grand conspiracy", but rather minimized (at least at first) the Jewish death toll, which certainly was an aim of the defense.
Are you saying that because the defense did such an excellent job disproving the Auschwitz death toll with statistics about Jews and other populations? Defendants such as Rosenberg thought the Hoess presentation was a deliberate game to undermine his own testimony on Nazi ideology and sully things. If you figure the defense had the sum total knowledge of living Nazis to work with or something approaching it, and the opportunity to respond to the allegations, wouldn't have Rosenberg loved to show Hoess' figure is undoubtedly false? Pulling the prosecutors' pants down by proving that Hoess' number didn't even ever reach the Auschwitz camp system would have been a good showing and according to you "certainly an aim of the defense."

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Loog »

Admiral E. Rastus wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:23 pm
Almost every mass population transfer from the Assyrian Empire on.
Give me an example from a centralized bureaucratic state conducting a mass population transfer.

Volga German expulsion:

https://www.norkarussia.info/uploads/3/ ... ermans.pdf
Exile of Ethnic Germans September 1941 to 1 January 1942
Moscow.......................................................8,640
Tula .............................................................2,702
Rostov .......................................................38,742
Krasnodar..................................................37,733
Ordzhonikidze...........................................99,900
Karbarino-Balkar ASSR .............................5,803
North Ossetia ASSR ...................................5,843
Voronezh.....................................................5,125
Kubishev .....................................................8,782
Zaporozhia ................................................31,320
Voroshilov ................................................12,488
Stalin Oblast, Ukraine...............................85,925

72Zemskov, “Kulatskaia,” tables no. 1 and no. 2, p. 5 and Bugai, Soglasno, tables nos. 7-9, pp. 246-248. 73Documents reproduced in Alieva, vol. I, pp. 294-297.
74Bugai, Ikh nado deportirovat’, doc. no. 44, p. 45. 75Bugai, Ikh nado deportirovat’, doc. no. 45, pp. 75-76. 76Bugai, Ikh nado deportirovat’, doc. no. 32, p. 65. 77Bugai, Ikh nado deportirovat’, doc. no. 44, p. 75.
Dnepropetrovsk...........................................3,250
Crimea ASSR..............................................1,900
Georgia......................................................20,423
Armenia,.........................................................212
Azerbaijan.................................................23,593
Stalingrad ..................................................26,245
Saratov ......................................................46,706
Volga German ASSR..............................371,164
Total ........................................................799,459
Table no. 278

Exile of Germans to Kazakhstan 25 November 1941
Oblast Planned Number Actual Number
South Kazakhstan .........................48,000................................23,832
Zhambul ........................................41,000................................ 20,994
North Kazakhstan .........................60,000................................48,303
Alma-Ata.......................................30,000.................................. 8,761
Aktiubinsk.....................................15,000..................................5,554
Pavlodar ........................................45,000................................ 43,202
Kustan ...........................................60,000................................ 30,010
Akmolinsk.....................................60,000................................ 56,753
East Kazakhstan............................32,000................................28,136
Karaganda .....................................29,000.................................. 8,304
Semipaltinsk..................................50,000................................38,170
Kzyl-Orda .....................................15,000.................................. 3,608
Total ............................................485,000.............................. 315,627
Against this (which is not nearly all the evidence, read the paper) you counter with documentation of 2 or 3 transports being sent to Russia for entirely unspecified reasons and during the early part of the mass deportations of Polish Jews from ghettos, absolutely nothing after autumn 1942.


As for your claims re Nuremberg, you're saying the defense knew (I assume certainly people like Kaltenbrunner and Pohl) that Jews had not been mass slaughtered in death camps, had access to witnesses (certainly among those who signed the 136,000 affidavits), and yet chose not to even attempt to solidify this alibi?

Instead, when they probably could have at the very least plead complete ignorance (given lack of evidence tying them to mass slaughter) both Pohl and Kaltenbrunner admitted they knew about it. Furthermore in post-Nuremberg trials every guard who could be proven to have worked at the camps in question admitted to knowing these were death camps instead of pleading ignorance.

All this makes me think that the defendants and lawyers in these trials were not only uniformly incompetent but sold out their people for no real reason at all (even after being sentenced to death they did not attempt to "set the record straight")

I think this is a big uphill climb for you here.

BTW you say the cache was not maintained, but have you done any research here? It seems like this exemplifies your 'wishful thinking' approach to this entire matter. https://www.archives.gov/research/guide ... s/238.html

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

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Admiral E. Rastus wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:06 pm

Are you saying that because the defense did such an excellent job disproving the Auschwitz death toll with statistics about Jews and other populations? Defendants such as Rosenberg thought the Hoess presentation was a deliberate game to undermine his own testimony on Nazi ideology and sully things. If you figure the defense had the sum total knowledge of living Nazis to work with or something approaching it, and the opportunity to respond to the allegations, wouldn't have Rosenberg loved to show Hoess' figure is undoubtedly false? Pulling the prosecutors' pants down by proving that Hoess' number didn't even ever reach the Auschwitz camp system would have been a good showing and according to you "certainly an aim of the defense."
While I await the findings of your research on population transfers, you raise an interesting question here.

According to the exterminationist position - Rosenberg likely knew millions were killed in camps, but he wasn't directly involved so the details were sketchy. He couldn't evaluate that 2.5 million dead claim.

If we're to believe the Sassen transcripts and recordings are authentic, even Eichmann didn't have the numbers. Quoting from the book "Eichmann Before Jerusalem' which you can find in my google drive:
In this complex constellation, the attempt to refute the Jewish “lie of the
six million” became a farce in two senses. The group read one murder
statistic after another—tellingly, leaving out those they themselves had
falsified over the preceding years. In 1953 Gerald Reitlinger arrived at 4.2
to 4.7 million; the report to the World Jewish Congress from June 1946 put it
at six million; Léon Poliakov thought eight million was possible. The Sassen
circle tried to analyze each figure in the Wannsee transcript and in Korherr’s
report to Hitler from 1943. They read the statement by Camp Commandant
Höß about the extermination capacity of Auschwitz. Sassen rounded the
numbers down; Eichmann rounded them up. Eichmann exaggerated the
number of survivors; Sassen cast doubt on this, and together they tried to
extrapolate a figure. Reading this discussion sometimes feels like being in a
bazaar: once again only numbers, not people, exist for Eichmann: “So, he
[Reitlinger] says 65,000, I say 40,000, so let’s call it around 50,000.”281
Another instance: “381,000 is a little high, but it may have been around
300,000.”282 And whenever Sassen starts to be even slightly optimistic,
Eichmann’s words invariably throw everything into confusion again. “Half of
them always lived,” Eichmann claims on the selections in Auschwitz, and
although this is an incredible underestimation of the murder rate for the
transports from Hungary, Sassen’s reaction is almost panicked: “No, no, we
worked out that the absorption capacity was around 250,000, but if two
million went there in total …,” then a million Jews would have been gassed in
Auschwitz alone. As we now know, this is close to the truth, but it
certainly wasn’t what Sassen wanted to hear in 1957.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Huntinger »

Loog wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:31 am
Rosenberg likely knew millions were killed in camps, but he wasn't directly involved so the details were sketchy.
Very sketchy to the point of absolute ignorance. People were not killed in the camps, they died, due to allied interdiction; the necessities of life allowing disease to thrive.
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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

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Loog wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:31 am
If we're to believe the Sassen transcripts and recordings are authentic, even Eichmann didn't have the numbers. Quoting from the book "Eichmann Before Jerusalem' which you can find in my google drive:
...“Half of them always lived” Eichmann claims on the selections in Auschwitz, and although this is an incredible underestimation of the murder rate for the transports from Hungary, Sassen’s reaction is almost panicked: “No, no, we worked out that the absorption capacity was around 250,000, but if two million went there in total…” then a million Jews would have been gassed in Auschwitz alone. As we now know, this is close to the truth, but it certainly wasn’t what Sassen wanted to hear in 1957.
This quote from the book "Eichmann Before Jerusalem' reveals the delusional confirmation bias that informs all ‘holocaust history’ that is deemed acceptable.

Look at just the actual quotes from the admittedly questionable Sassen transcripts.
Eichmann: “Half of them always lived”...
Sassen: “No, no, we worked out that the absorption capacity was around 250,000, but if two million went there in total…”

The accepted ‘authors’ of ‘holocaust history’ have to invent “gassed” wording to put in the mouths of the scapegoats.

“As we now know” really means ‘we retroactively make everything fit the ludicrous and physically unevidenced mass-gassing narrative. Even if we have to cheat, twist and invent to make it fit’.
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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Turnagain »

b-t wrote:
“As we now know” really means ‘we retroactively make everything fit the ludicrous and physically unevidenced mass-gassing narrative. Even if we have to cheat, twist and invent to make it fit’.
LOL! IOW ya' gotta' "Nessie-ize" it. :lol:

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