David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

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Huntinger
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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Huntinger »

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:23 am
The lack of a meaningful response renders the rest if his claims meaningless.
David Cole like all Shylocks runs with the hares and hunts with the hounds. I originally admired his tenacity but now to me he is just another yid, though a little more touched. While there is still a dearth of information for multivariate reasons, the information given by an interested German on the Zollgrenzschutz totally corroborates their actions and plans with the locations of the alleged extermination camps; this is no mere coincidence. David Cole simply threw up the white flag too early, perhaps soothing the synapses with ethanol. I do not think the problem is with Nationalsozialisten. :D
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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by been-there »

Loog wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:12 am
...it is clear why Germans would have destroyed orders or communicated orally and in great secret about such things, whereas there's presumably no reason for them to have done so for mass resettlement.
Actually it isn’t clear.
Why would they have destroyed all orders and operated in such amazingly successful “great secret” if Hitler had supposedly ALREADY openly and publically admitted he intended to exterminate all Jews in Axis-occupied Europe in ‘Mein kampf’ AND in public speeches? (Discussed here and here.

I think this demonstrates yet another deceit and/or self delusion in the currently believed and enforced ‘Holocaust’ narrative.
It really has to choose whether Hitler:
1.) openly admitted and publicised his intention to mass-murder every Jew they could get their hands on,
or
2.) managed to implement such a genocidal policy under cover of incredble top secrecy and managed to meticulously destroy all documentary and forensic evidence of the crime.
It can’t credibly have it both ways. And yet it DOES attempt to do exactly that.

Loog wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:12 am
...to clarify, if hypothetically the Nazis were committing mass genocide, I believe it makes sense they *would* try to cover it up.

I see no reason for them to cover up or disguise mass resettlement or whatever else non-murderous things they may have been doing with the Jews.

Any disagreements here?
Agreed the Third Reich would have no “reason for them to cover up or disguise mass resettlement or whatever else...”.

But can you agree that given what Sefton Delmer and British psy-ops was engaged in, the victorious Allies WOULD “have reasons” to?

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Admiral E. Rastus »

Loog wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:04 am
You're stretching it here (yes it's likely Berlin would have cared about and had some opinions re the treatment and status of millions of Polish Jews deported into a warzone), but let's move on from this point.
No, it doesn't make sense that the Reich would micromanage anything of the sort, actually.
Loog wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:04 am
I offered the Arolsen archives as an example of a publicly accessible database featuring tens of thousands of documents concerning whereabouts and status of Jews in occupied USSR.
Sure. And for example, you can see the more detailed RSHA guidelines for deporting Inland Jews that you imply don't exist there, but I'm not going to try and find them again.
Loog wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:04 am
A more telling example may be here: https://www.ushmm.org/research/publicat ... s/download

You can download the Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos free of charge, there's 2000 pages on obscure camps and ghettos all throughout eastern Europe, hundreds at least in Ukraine/Ostland/Russia. Check the sources, they are mostly German documents.
I'm familiar with the publications from before the first two volumes were freely offered online. That's funny, you check the sources and read the text to get a yardstick of how undocumented they are. You'll have difficulty finding German details on the "accommodations" or systematic records of entry of Jews in those ghettos or whatever zany thing you pretend to be after.
Loog wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:04 am
The archives exist and anyone can visit them: Mattogno (who knows Russian) claims to have done so here!
You can, of course, see what archives Graf and Mattogno researched in. They footnote their works and offer bibliographies. It's not the archive fairy that puts German documents in "the archives," and not all archives are the same. I have referred to two things: First, Record Group K-779 in the Central Archive of the FSB in Moscow, apparently composed of two separate hauls of Trawniki Training Camp files and Trawniki personnel files. Its contents are only known through selected files given to West German and American prosecutors or used in Soviet trials, unless something changed. And then there's the archive the bloggers were tipped off to containing Auschwitz camp construction documents thought lost (as well as SK scrolls not known about). Unless I misread, that one's closed to researchers and formally you have to intervene with the Russian military for any access; good luck if there's no catch for them.

I don't believe you can make the case that Graf and Mattogno - or a significant amount of historians who've published, for that matter - visited these archives at all, let alone thoroughly researched them.

The Soviets constantly fed "incriminating" documents, without the wider documentary context, to West German prosecutors. Declassified German prosecution case files and some copies thereof in USHMM or elsewhere are still maybe the only public source for some of these Russian-captured documents, pending further declassification by the Russian Federation.

Add to that that what the Russians did release and are releasing was barely researched by anyone. So not very impressed with crying that the Germans ate your homework given the above.
Loog wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:04 am
So the question is not 'where did they gooooo!!!' (that ones for you Huntinger but I will almost certainly not be responding to any of your posts so don't bother lol)

but rather- why still no German documentation found showing anything close to the resettlement of 2-3 million people? (both Poles and Soviet Jews unfit for work)

I see a few possible answers:

The Germans kept no documentation about these matters

The historians looking through these archives are uniformly incompetent/dishonest

The Russians destroyed all documents pertaining to resettlement. l

Anything to add here? To me these seem quite unlikely.
The documentation is there and, in my opinion, consistent with that of other verified deportations. You're just supposing it's fake, I guess, which is your historical take to have, of course. What you're referring to is your niche requests of documents that would have probably been found in Soviet occupied zones, if at all, and even for those there are more options.
Loog wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:04 am
Yes, but also confusion. "Mass Genocide" is vague. What is and isn't "mass genocide?" What's the death figure for "mass genocide" out of the "Holocaust" total? What are the instances of "mass genocide" - did "mass genocide" only happen at your special camps?
hypothetically (big hypothetical I know): 3 million murdered (not worked to death) in camps specifically constructed for this purpose - does it make sense the Germans would have tried to conceal this? (through among other things, use of specialized language and destruction of incriminating documents)
So hypothetically, everything else was fine for involved Germans to openly discuss in documents without the use of specialized language, except the very camps that Jews made a religion out of to replace traditional Jewish identity and that Western leaders now make pilgrimages to?

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Loog »

Admiral E. Rastus wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:40 pm

The documentation is there and, in my opinion, consistent with that of other verified deportations. You're just supposing it's fake, I guess, which is your historical take to have, of course. What you're referring to is your niche requests of documents that would have probably been found in Soviet occupied zones, if at all, and even for those there are more options.
Admiral, please! I really want to see these documents you think I will "suppose" to be fake.

I didn't think the transport document was fake, just that it didn't demonstrate mass migration - rather the movement of a few thousand people into occupied territories for entirely unspecified reasons, probably labor related. A lot of documents attest to the transfer of workers to the east - being German speakers they were likely quite valuable.

I was just reading this document, a letter by Wetzler. In this letter he makes clear that camps are being set up in Riga and Minsk for Old Reich Jews,

http://web.archive.org/web/201408220602 ... zel-no365/

Yet he also makes clear that these camps are to be reserved only for Jews "capable of work".

Admiral, this is not mass migration as I would define it. Perhaps I wasn't making myself obvious (if so I apologize) but my concern here has always been with those Jews deemed - unfit - for work.

Hopefully your documents can shed some light on this mystery

what were the camps like where these Jews went? were they open air enclosures like with the Russian POWs? Or were they like towns perhaps, with stores and schools and bathing areas and dining halls?

what happened to the sick Jews, what happened to the insane Jews - did they kill them? We know they killed thousands of their own who had debilitating conditions.

Looking forward to these documents,

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Admiral E. Rastus »

Loog wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:14 am
Admiral E. Rastus wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:40 pm

The documentation is there and, in my opinion, consistent with that of other verified deportations. You're just supposing it's fake, I guess, which is your historical take to have, of course. What you're referring to is your niche requests of documents that would have probably been found in Soviet occupied zones, if at all, and even for those there are more options.
Admiral, please! I really want to see these documents you think I will "suppose" to be fake.

I didn't think the transport document was fake, just that it didn't demonstrate mass migration - rather the movement of a few thousand people into occupied territories for entirely unspecified reasons, probably labor related. A lot of documents attest to the transfer of workers to the east - being German speakers they were likely quite valuable.
I don't know what you're on about. There's something called a Jewish evacuation starting in 1941 with Reich Jews and some others. It continues and is named as such in the years following. On a documentary basis, the situation is what it is.
I was just reading this document, a letter by Wetzler. In this letter he makes clear that camps are being set up in Riga and Minsk for Old Reich Jews,

http://web.archive.org/web/201408220602 ... zel-no365/

Yet he also makes clear that these camps are to be reserved only for Jews "capable of work".

Admiral, this is not mass migration as I would define it.
No, he doesn't. You have an odd way of reading. The Brack stuff was pretty much never in play, by the way.
Perhaps I wasn't making myself obvious (if so I apologize) but my concern here has always been with those Jews deemed - unfit - for work.

Hopefully your documents can shed some light on this mystery

what were the camps like where these Jews went? were they open air enclosures like with the Russian POWs? Or were they like towns perhaps, with stores and schools and bathing areas and dining halls?

what happened to the sick Jews, what happened to the insane Jews - did they kill them? We know they killed thousands of their own who had debilitating conditions.

Looking forward to these documents,
I would assume it varied with time and location.

Some Jews who were deemed not to make it were killed, usually by shooting, in the course of physically removing the population and in other instances.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Loog »

Admiral E. Rastus wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:16 am

I would assume it varied with time and location.

Some Jews who were deemed not to make it were killed, usually by shooting, in the course of physically removing the population and in other instances.
Did they set up a few big camps or distribute these non-employable Jews piecemeal across the existent labor camps? Assuming 2 million non-employable Jews, this would mean a hundred camps with 20,000 sent to each or 2000 spread across a thousand camps.

And did they just sit around while the others worked?

Why when the holocaust accusations were made in the post-war trials (say against Rosenberg, Kaltenbrunner, Pohl, and many others) couldn't the defense find a single German or Russian witness who could speak to the existence of these camps, nor has a single witness surfaced since then?
Last edited by Loog on Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Huntinger »

Loog wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:07 am


Why when the holocaust accusations were made in the post-war trials (say against Rosenberg, Kaltenbrunner, Pohl, and many others) the defense couldn't find a single German or Russian witness who could speak to the existence of these camps, nor has a single witness surfaced since then?
Think Soviet extraordinary special commission, staff of 7 million backed up by the Soviet Secret Polizei. Think war time atrocity propaganda and a great desire to blame the Katyn massacre on the Reich.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

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It's a ridiculous question. It's as if I were to ask: what are the accommodations of ethnic Finns not working physical labor living in Bulgaria in the past decade, and how are they distributed? It probably depends on the people, place and moment in time. In or around Riga for example, at one point food for non-working Reich Jews was allegedly paid for partly through the employment of working Jews in the area. So in a sense these sat around while the others worked.

Did the Soviet authorities give leave to defendants and their counsel to make fact-finding trips in Soviet-controlled areas, question witnesses who would not fear Soviet reprisal as well as inspect all Soviet-captured German documents? Were former German officials and NSDAP members released from worldwide prisons and concentration camps during the pendency of the pre-trial and trial period in order to aid the defense? Did they have time to prepare? Was this modern troll issue even brought up? Not really. They had to focus on the thing in front of them. Rosenberg, for instance, an extremely sidelined official as things were, stood accused of his academic/philosophical work being part of some grand conspiracy hatched pre-1933 that later necessarily led to the war and then wartime excesses. His preparatory time was devoted to explaining his ideology and refuting that nonsense. Pohl in his later trial was confronted with the vague notion of 'atrocities at the camps.' Given that even a couple of executions would have been assumed to be motivated by the grand conspiracy and would have harmed their defense and appeals, the defense had to go with non-involvement not explanations. Kaltenbrunner was likewise somewhat screwed given his position.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Loog »

Admiral E. Rastus wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:06 pm
It's a ridiculous question. It's as if I were to ask: what are the accommodations of ethnic Finns not working physical labor living in Bulgaria in the past decade, and how are they distributed?
You bring up an interesting point, can you find another mass population transfer as poorly documented as this one?

Volga germans suffered tremendously during their expulsion from Ukraine, yet even though USSR was the perpetrator here, concrete records exist and have been studied.

One can find wartime examples of population movements initiated by Germans that are copiously documented in comparison. For example the expulsion of Poles from Zamojszczyzna. This included 30,000 children, 13k of which passed through this camp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_KZ again it's all about the details

In comparison perhaps half a million Jewish children were processed during 42/43, of which no further documentation of exists.


Did the Soviet authorities give leave to defendants and their counsel to make fact-finding trips in Soviet-controlled areas, question witnesses who would not fear Soviet reprisal as well as inspect all Soviet-captured German documents? Were former German officials and NSDAP members released from worldwide prisons and concentration camps during the pendency of the pre-trial and trial period in order to aid the defense? Did they have time to prepare? Was this modern troll issue even brought up? Not really. They had to focus on the thing in front of them. Rosenberg, for instance, an extremely sidelined official as things were, stood accused of his academic/philosophical work being part of some grand conspiracy hatched pre-1933 that later necessarily led to the war and then wartime excesses. His preparatory time was devoted to explaining his ideology and refuting that nonsense. Pohl in his later trial was confronted with the vague notion of 'atrocities at the camps.' Given that even a couple of executions would have been assumed to be motivated by the grand conspiracy and would have harmed their defense and appeals, the defense had to go with non-involvement not explanations. Kaltenbrunner was likewise somewhat screwed given his position.
Most German POWs were held by USSR were repatriated in 1946

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_pr ... viet_Union

according to this table only 1.1 million were held in 1946

Additionally many POWs (more in fact than the soviets) were held by the western allies. During Nuremberg trials defense lawyers were able to able to get 136,000 sworn affidavits from SS members

http://www.nizkor.com/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tg ... 7-03.shtml

"Those 136,000 statements in the collection were divided into various subjects, and they form part of the defence case of the SS."

Many of these affidavits seemingly contradicted the official story (not really but this is a separate argument).

"On the question of whether the SS members recognized the destruction of Jewry as an aim of the leaders, 1,593 out of 1,637 affidavits which mention this problem state that the Jewish problem was not to be solved by killing, or by the so-called "final solution"

On top of all this, the bringing to light of the existence of holding camps for Jews unfit for work, would not in itself have promoted any "grand conspiracy", but rather minimized (at least at first) the Jewish death toll, which certainly was an aim of the defense.
Last edited by Loog on Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: David Cole's 1994 IHR Conference Speech

Post by Huntinger »

Loog wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:20 am
On top of all this, the bringing to light of the existence of holding camps for Jews unfit for work, would not in itself have promoted any "grand conspiracy", but rather minimized (at least at first) the Jewish death toll, which certainly was an aim of the defense.
There were a few, with Birkenau being the main one. Most of the Polish juden were evicted into Soviet Poland prior to Barbarossa at 4 customs points, all closely associated with the konzentrationslager holding pens. The original camp was Malkinia until another one was made. The others are also within a few km, though it seems.
[*]Malkinia Zoll, 750 men aka Treblinka
[*]Wlodowa Zoll 600 men aka Sobibor
[*]Belzec Zoll 600 men aka Belzec.

It is most likely the L in the Höfle telegram refers to the ZG outpost Lazow or Lupkow close to the border with Slovakia.
As most people know the GG extended its borders south after Barbarossa, which meant that Belzec was no longer a border camp; this will explain why in the Höfle telegram there were no transports to that place.
The telegram gave train arrivals in the prior fortnight, as well as cumulative arrivals until 31 December 1942.
Recorded arrivals until 31 December 42, L 12761, B 0, S 515, T 10335

It was not known until Alexander Solzhenitsyn published his works that the 4 mass deportations of the Polish population took place; it seems there were 1.8 million juden in those transports to the Russian interior; he claims a good proportion perished.

It is likely most of these people were those evicted from the Reich prior to Barbarossa, becoming non persons, homeless refugees. It is clear that the Soviets tried to cover this up. The events are now corroborated by many sources.

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