Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the Americans

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been-there
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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by been-there »

Nessie wrote:
been-there wrote:Absolutely zero verifiable references, just more hot air and unsupported, arrogant, ignorant opinion. :roll:
And opinion that demonstrates again a lack of comprehension of key terms, e.g. such as what was referred to with the term 'area bombing'.
Do you deny what I said is true? Yes or no.
Why should anyone believe an opinion? Who do you think you are that we should accept as accurate any opinion from you?
Its really simple. Provide reputable, verifiable sources or shut up and fuck-off. You are demonstrating again stupid troll tactics. I imagine you are an embarassment to any genuinely informed person who adheres to the exterminationalist WW2 history.
Nessie wrote:
been-there wrote:E.g. "Warsaw, Wielun, Frampol and Rotterdam" were NOT 'area bombed'. That demonstrates the level of wilful self-delusional and stupidity/miscomprehension AGAIN. :roll:
Explain how those four places were not area bombed.
Oh dear. You sad idiotic troll. :roll:
Verifiable, reputable sources have already been provided explaining this. If you disagree then YOU have to refute them with something other than merely your ill-informed opinion.
If you can't understand the provided citations and instead miscomprehend and fallaciously cherry-pick to present a false argument by voicing mere opinion, then you are trolling. Just as you did on lividity.

To help you here are the facts concerning one of your bogus, non-relevant, cherry-picked examples:

The bombing of Rotterdam was performed against a defended part of a city vital for the military objectives and in the front-line, and the bombing respected Article 25 to 27 of the Hague Conventions on Land Warfare.
(Germany and the Second World War, by Horst Boog. 2001, Vol. VII, p. 361,362.)

The Rotterdam bombing was against well-defined targets, albeit in the middle of the city, and would have assisted the advancing German Army.
('The other battle: Luftwaffe night aces versus Bomber Command.' Peter Hinchliffe, 2000. p. 43)
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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by Nessie »

All three questions dodged, lets try again.

I did not state an opinion. I stated facts, do you deny what I said is true? Yes or no.

Is cherry picking an honest and reliable way of presenting an argument? Yes or no.

Explain how those four places were not area bombed.

You managed to answer about Rotterdam. The whole city was defended and negotiations to surrender were at a conclusion when the planes arrived. So instead of attacking the defenders the Nazis carpet bombed the city centre, not what the commanders at Rotterdam had asked for;

http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.php?page=rotterdam-4

"Briefly we would like to raise the question of guilt. It is perfectly clear that the commanders of the local German troops are not to be blamed for this devastating event. Both Student and Schmidt had only required a tactical bombardment by dive-bombers. Also both these officers did not - at any time - try to cover up the fact that this bombardment was the responsibility of the German Army. Unlike others, they never blamed the Dutch or the circumstances. They also were horrified by the events."

The Nazis back in Germany wanted the point made that civilians would be bombed and there would be mass casualties;

"Should the German high command have had the genuine intention to follow the international rules, they would not have launched their bombers prior to a confirmation from Schmidt of failed negotiations. They would also have instructed that the bombardment would only be on after red flares would have been sighted, rather than the other way round, which incorporated the substantial chance of missed identification of flares."

To avoid more Nazi attacks on civilians in the cities the Dutch surrendered the Netherlands. According to denier/revisionists the bombing of civilians as a means of war did not start till the British bombed Germans. :?
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by been-there »

been-there wrote:What we have again here is ironic 'holocaust denial' by an exterminationalist.

Genuine decimation by fire can more accurately be called a holocaust than alleged systematic mass-gassings, deaths from epidemics, or by mass shootings of partisan communities in Russian territory.

The deliberate policy of 'area bombing' with incendiaries to cause incineration of entire cities is an irrefutably Allied crime. It was not a German one. The fire-bombing of civilian Dresden (as well as Nagasaki and Hiroshima) stands as the most wicked example of that because it clearly did not serve any military objective but appears to have been done partly to demonstrate to Stalin that though he had troops on the ground, he should admit and submit to Anglo-American air-bomber-superiority.
An internal RAF memo spreads some light on the reason for the bombing:
“Dresden, the seventh largest city in Germany and not much smaller than Manchester, is also far the largest unbombed built-up the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westwards and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium. The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front, to prevent the use of the city in the way of further advance, and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do.”
RAF January 1945
The burning to death,
- the asphyxiation from smoke and oxygen depletion by fire,
- the boiling to death from broken water pipes of people sheltering in cellars,
- the death by being crushed by falling masonry,
- by being roasted alive while trapped in melting asphalt
of the elderly, women and children has to be one of the most wicked acts of the war.
It was a genuine and completely undisputed HOLOCAUST. A wicked 'holocaust' perpetrated by the victorious, supposedly 'good guy' Allies.

Yet trolls like Nessie can't bring themselves to accept and condemn without quibble that irrefutable reality.
They would rather believe and defend idiotically a flawed mythology. One that is used to perpetuate an ongoing racist crime in the middle east.

Why?

From a filmed 1977 RAF interview of Sir Arthur 'butcher' 'bomber' Harris:
"I lived in a shower of directives from the day I took over to the last day of war. The directive when I took over was that I wasn't to specifically aim at anything unless ordered to do so and to blast the German cities as a whole."
In March, 1945, Winston Churchill gave instructions to Arthur Harris to bring an end to what was called area bombing or 'carpet bombing' and 'blanket bombing'.
Sir W. Churchill wrote:"It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land."
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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by Cerdic »

But Churchill it was who started what was called 'Area bombing' of civilian targets.
Not true. Frampol in September 1939, for instance, was an example of area bombing (defined as a type of aerial bombardment that targeted indiscriminately at a large area, such as a city block or an entire city). The same was done to Warsaw later that month.

What we've seen is this: In May 1940, some RAF raids on military targets on German soil were authorised. Examples include Monchengladbach. In the Battle of Britain, both sides bombed each other's military targets, leading to some civilian casualties. About Portsmouth, we can read:
in the early part of that sunny Thursday evening on July 11, 1940, 24 German planes of Hitler's Luftwaffe brought carnage to the city.

In the space of a few minutes those bombs left 18 people dead and 80 injured.
http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/local/ ... -1-1257068

Overall, in July 1940, 258 British civillians died from German bombs. In August 1940, the figure was 1,075.

In retaliation for the event of the German bombs falling on central London on August 25th, Berlin was bombed for the first time.
On the night of August 25th-26 Bomber command sent 81 bombers to strike industrial targets in Berlin
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Udi ... ng&f=false

These raids on Berlin were therefore targeted - not area bombing - but they angered the Germans, who hadn't believed their capital could be bombed.

In response, Hitler then launched the area bombings of London and other cities.

Whichever countries you look at, either 1939 Germany-Poland or 1940 Germany-UK, it was the Germans that started the policy of area bombing.

That said, I find discussions of "who started it" to be rather boring and dominate discussion of WW2 bombing far too much. Sure, the Germans can be shown as hypocrites, but the bigger issue is whether strategic bombing was useful and acceptable, or not.
What we have again here is ironic 'holocaust denial' by an exterminationalist.
Where's your evidence that Nessie, or indeed me, have denied any known facts about Dresden?

Additionally, to use your own highly literal meaning of the word Holocaust, Dresden doesn't fit. Temperatures didn't reach crematoria levels.
The historians refuted several myths, including the widespread belief that temperatures in the city reached 2,000 degrees in the firestorm — a temperature at which humans turn to ash.

“We were able to prove that wasn’t the case,” said Thomas Wildera of Dresden’s Technical University, a member of the commission. “We disproved the notion that tens of thousands of people disappeared without trace.”

They did so by analysing photos that showed the condition of the brickwork on buildings after the raid. On lower floors, where people were likely to have been sheltering, temperatures rose no higher than 300 to 500, below cremation levels.
http://www.thelocal.de/20150203/dresden ... 3-february
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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by been-there »

What new level of pedantry and idiotic denial is this?
Dresden can't be called a holocaust because temperatures didn't reach 2000°C?? :o :lol:

These hasbara trolls really have no shame.
A holocaust is a sacrifice that is completely consumed by fire. The word derives from the Ancient Greek holocaustos (ὁλόκαυστος from ὅλος "whole" and καυστός "burnt"), which is used solely for one of the major forms of sacrifice.
Holocausts are conducted at night.
So do you REALLY wish to argue over whether the mass-murder by fire at Dresden and elsewhere WAS more deserving of the term?
And do you really deny that society, historians, our media and education boards HAVE played down these wicked firebombings of cities which were deliberate mass-murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent, civilian non-combatants by fire? Do you really deny they have been minimised in the popular consciousness in comparison to the hoo-hah and compulsion to "remember" the genuine suffering of Jews.

I do find you people's attitudes quite sickening and disgusting.
Have you really no pity or repugnance of these Allied crimes?
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they either cease being mistaken
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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by Nessie »

been-there wrote:What new level of pedantry and idiotic denial is this?
Dresden can't be called a holocaust because temperatures didn't reach 2000°C?? :o :lol:

These hasbara trolls really have no shame.
Cerdic was being ironic by using your level of pedantry back at you. Do Swedes understand irony?
been-there wrote:
A holocaust is a sacrifice that is completely consumed by fire. The word derives from the Ancient Greek holocaustos (ὁλόκαυστος from ὅλος "whole" and καυστός "burnt"), which is used solely for one of the major forms of sacrifice.
Holocausts are conducted at night.
So do you REALLY wish to argue over whether the mass-murder by fire at Dresden and elsewhere WAS more deserving of the term. And do you really deny that historians and education boards HAVE played down these wicked firebombings of cities which were deliberate mass-murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent, civilian non-combatants by fire? Minimised in comparison to the suffering of Jews, I mean.

I do find you people's attitudes quite sickening and disgusting.
Have you really no pity or repugnance of those crimes?
STRAWMAN

Not only have you tried to play down the Nazi involvement in the murder of thousands of innocents in mass bombing raids and use of incendiaries, you have denied that the Nazis were the first to do such and lied that it was the British. You have dodged a whole series of questions from me because you know that answering them means you have to own up to a truth you cannot deal with.

I find your attitude sickening and disgusting and your lack of pity repugnant.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

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What distinguished the American's contribution to this genuine holocaust was the quite murderous aspect of low flying U.S. Mustangs sent in to murder in cold blood any survivors from the inferno, including a column of rescue vehicles rushing to the city to evacuate survivors. They straffed the banks of the Elbe River, where refugees had huddled during the horrible night. Quite wicked behaviour, yet we in the UK, America, Scandinavia, etc., have no memorial days, or hollywood weepies, or endless documentaries about THIS undisputed act of Allied savagery and merciless cruelty. Why?
Dresden stands out as a genuine holocaust and the Hasbara trolls here are in denial as they attempt to minimise its wickedness with fallacious tu qouque arguments that do not withstand scrutiny.
Justice for Germans wrote:The following is a German documentary, probably from the 1990s, about the Dresden Firebombing which was translated into English. It is 1hr 15 mins in length. The first 25 minutes details the history of the city with pre-1945 film footage. It also includes quite a few eyewitness statements from survivors, as well as, a speech by Historian David Irving (speaking German, translated into English) about this heinous and deliberate British War Crime.



David Irving called out the War Criminal Winston Churchill, pointing to his policy of deliberately targeted civilians, quoting from Churchill’s own document archives, asking Bomber Command
“What can we do to roast the Germans?”

. . . . . . . . . . .

What where Churchill’s motives? They appear to have been political, rather than military. Historians unanimously agree that Dresden had no military value. What industry it did have produced only cigarettes and china.

But the Yalta Conference was coming up, in which the Soviets and their Western allies would sit down like ghouls to carve up the shattered corpse of Europe. Churchill wanted a trump card — a devastating “thunderclap of Anglo-American annihilation” — with which to “impress” Stalin.

That card, however, was never played at Yalta, because bad weather delayed the originally scheduled raid. Yet Churchill insisted that the raid be carried out–to “disrupt and confuse” the German civilian population behind the lines.

Dresden’s citizens barely had time to reach their shelters. The first bomb fell at 10:09 p.m. The attack lasted 24 minutes, leaving the inner city a raging sea of fire. “Precision saturation bombing” had created the desired firestorm.

A firestorm is caused when hundreds of smaller fires join in one vast conflagration. Huge masses of air are sucked in to feed the inferno, causing an artificial tornado. Those persons unlucky enough to be caught in the rush of wind are hurled down entire streets into the flames. Those who seek refuge underground often suffocate as oxygen is pulled from the air to feed the blaze, or they perish in a blast of white heat–heat intense enough to melt human flesh.

One eyewitness who survived told of seeing “young women carrying babies running up and down the streets, their dresses and hair on fire, screaming until they fell down, or the collapsing buildings fell on top of them.”

There was a three-hour pause between the first and second raids. The lull had been calculated to lure civilians from their shelters into the open again. To escape the flames, tens of thousands of civilians had crowded into the Grosser Garten, a magnificent park nearly one and a half miles square.

The second raid came at 1:22 a.m. with no warning. Twice as many bombers returned with a massive load of incendiary bombs. The second wave was designed to spread the raging firestorm into the Grosser Garten.

It was a complete “success.” Within a few minutes a sheet of flame ripped across the grass, uprooting trees and littering the branches of others with everything from bicycles to human limbs. For days afterward, they remained bizarrely strewn about as grim reminders of Allied sadism.

At the start of the second air assault, many were still huddled in tunnels and cellars, waiting for the fires of the first attack to die down. At 1:30 a.m. an ominous rumble reached the ears of the commander of a Labor Service convoy sent into the city on a rescue mission.
He described it this way:
“The detonation shook the cellar walls. The sound of the explosions mingled with a new, stranger sound which seemed to come closer and closer, the sound of a thundering waterfall; it was the sound of the mighty tornado howling in the inner city.”

MELTING HUMAN FLESH
Others hiding below ground died. As the heat intensified, they either disintegrated into cinders or melted into a thick liquid — often three or four feet deep in spots.

Shortly after 10:30 on the morning of February 14, the last raid swept over the city. American bombers pounded the rubble that had been Dresden for a steady 38 minutes. But this attack was not nearly as heavy as the first two.

However, what distinguished this raid was the cold-blooded ruthlessness with which it was carried out. U.S. Mustangs appeared low over the city, strafing anything that moved, including a column of rescue vehicles rushing to the city to evacuate survivors. One assault was aimed at the banks of the Elbe River, where refugees had huddled during the horrible night.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Irving stated that bomber crews were later interviewed and asked about what they had been told about the mission. They said “they were made aware of the refugees but were told that Dresden was an arsenal; a city of munitions factories, railway lines, armament factories, and that the Party Headquarters had been moved to Dresden”. Irving called that “utter nonsense!” He then quoted from a military directive from the British archives sent via Telex to all airfields giving instruction to the crews “the aim is to hit the enemy where it will hurt most” and also “to warn the Russians” by example of British bomber capabilities. Bomber Harris carried out the order.

Later Irving answered the question “who started the aerial warfare campaign?” He said, ‘it is proven beyond doubt that Churchill unleashed the aerial warfare on German cities in the Summer of 1940. Churchill had just become Prime Minister and at that time, the desire for peace was becoming vocal. There were even rallies in the street in front of the PM’s residence as people could no longer see any sense in the war. Poland no longer existed, France had been conquered and the Germans had already offered peace conditions which were quite acceptable. But these offers of peace were never published!”

Irving then went into detail about Churchill’s deliberate policy of bombing Berlin repeatedly to elicit an German response, and thereby, draw the ire of the British people, to incite them to all out war. In the film, Bomber Harris is also quoted as always having targeted the civilians. “All else was a bonus!”

Finally, David Irving stated:

“Dresden ...showed me that you cannot even trust your own government, when the government is responsible for recording its own history. You have to search further yourself. You have to find out for yourself. You have to not believe, but go on searching. And this continuous searching is what helped me to find out the truth!

Amen! And not only regarding Dresden, but indeed the ENTIRE history which you have been sold regarding Hitler, National Socialism and World War II, from start to finish! Then keep going, right to the present day, because it affects all, here and now. Wake up!

http://justice4germans.com/2015/02/15/v ... f-dresden/
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by Nessie »

been-there wrote:What distinguished the American's contribution to this genuine holocaust was the quite murderous aspect of low flying U.S. Mustangs sent in to murder in cold blood any survivors from the inferno, including a column of rescue vehicles rushing to the city to evacuate survivors. They straffed the banks of the Elbe River, where refugees had huddled during the horrible night.
"Absolutely zero verifiable references, just more hot air and unsupported, arrogant, ignorant opinion. :roll:" - been-there
been-there wrote: Quite wicked behaviour, yet we in the UK, America, Scandinavia, etc., have no memorial days, or hollywood weepies, or endless documentaries about THIS undisputed act of Allied savagery and merciless cruelty. Why?
To paraphrase you, it is because no one wants to remember when they were cruel and murderous and only an unintelligent, ignorant troll would ask such a stupid question.
been-there wrote: Dresden stands out as a genuine holocaust and the Hasbara trolls here are in denial as they attempt to minimise its wickedness with fallacious tu qouque arguments that do not withstand scrutiny.
You have used the following fallacies, ad hominem and strawman and have shown that you do not understand tu quoque so as to be able to use it appropriately. Tu quoque would be pointing out that the Nazis did it as well as the British, but the debate here is who did it first.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by been-there »

been-there wrote:What distinguished the American's contribution to this genuine holocaust was the quite murderous aspect of low flying U.S. Mustangs sent in to murder in cold blood any survivors from the inferno, including a column of rescue vehicles rushing to the city to evacuate survivors. They straffed the banks of the Elbe River, where refugees had huddled during the horrible night.
http://justice4germans.com/2015/02/15/v ... f-dresden/
Swedish newspaper Sydsvenska Dagbladet. The edition of 17 February read:
'...none of the aid convoys from neighbouring towns could be sent, because the roads to Dresden were blocked with refugee columns, peasant carts, and hand carts, interspersed with military transports. American dive bombers sprayed them with machine-gun fire. The military vehicles which were hit blocked the roads.'
Svenska Morgonbladet, 17 February 1945, document 67 in Erhard Klöss
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
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Re: Ultimate mass murderers were, and still are, the America

Post by Nessie »

been-there wrote:
been-there wrote:What distinguished the American's contribution to this genuine holocaust was the quite murderous aspect of low flying U.S. Mustangs sent in to murder in cold blood any survivors from the inferno, including a column of rescue vehicles rushing to the city to evacuate survivors. They straffed the banks of the Elbe River, where refugees had huddled during the horrible night.
http://justice4germans.com/2015/02/15/v ... f-dresden/
Swedish newspaper Sydsvenska Dagbladet. The edition of 17 February read:
'...none of the aid convoys from neighbouring towns could be sent, because the roads to Dresden were blocked with refugee columns, peasant carts, and hand carts, interspersed with military transports. American dive bombers sprayed them with machine-gun fire. The military vehicles which were hit blocked the roads.'
Svenska Morgonbladet, 17 February 1945, document 67 in Erhard Klöss
That reads the Mustang attacks targeted the military convoys on the roads, not the civilians.

I see you have developed a habit of ignoring the harder to answer questions. Paraphrasing you; that must be a sign of denial, a lack of intelligence and dishonesty.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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