Did Ilya Ehrenburg demand killing German women and children?

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Werd
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Did Ilya Ehrenburg demand killing German women and children?

Post by Werd »

Not according to this blogger.
http://shoabloger.wordpress.com/2013/09 ... ehrenburg/
September 23, 2013 by rafikorn
In defense of Ilya Ehrenburg


I went through many websites, English, Russianilya-ehrenburg_1-t and German. I have read many articles and leaflets of comrade Ehrenburg. It is true that in his violent piece “Kill!” he called the Soviet soldiers to kill Germans, but he did it in the summer 1942 when Wehrmacht stood deep in the Soviet territory. Then and later, he did all he could to make the Soviet soldiers hate and kill. But it seems he never instigated them to kill children or women. There are many quotes in which he actually says, that children are to be protected: “We’re not going to exterminate all Germans: we are not cannibals. We will only eliminate the criminals who killed our children, hanged, rampaged and burned. The rest will be able to atone for their complicity in serious crimes with hard, honest work. Children have the right to enter into a new world: they are not responsible for the sins of their parents” (20 November 1944, “Liberator”)

The oft quoted: ”Use force and break the racial pride of these German women. Take them as your lawful booty“ does not seem to come from an original Russian source at all!!!

1. In 1961 the Bavarian State Library issued a proclamation where it declared that the text of the leaflet (with the discussed quote) has never been published in “Pravda” newspaper.

2. In 1996 the München Institute of Modern History issued expert conclusion that:

“Even though Ehrenburg was heavily involved in propaganda warfare, we have to inform that there has not been found any proof that Ehrenburg has been author of the leaflet with a call to taking German women as legal spoils of war.



We also know nothing of existence of such leaflet in Russian.”

The last 2 facts should be described in the two following articles:

1.„Die Vereinfachungen des Genossen Ehrenburg“ by Carola Tischler.

2.„Ubej!“ by Bernhard Fisch.

Ehrenburg himself immediately responded to uproar in Germany over his call for rape in this article in the Army newspaper “Red Star” from 25 November 1944:


A blond witch

The commander of the German Army Group “Nord” addressed his Fritzes with the following order: “Ilya Ehrenburg calls the Asians “drink the blood of German women.” Ilya Ehrenburg demands that Asians enjoy our women, “Take the blond women – it’s your booty.” Ilya Ehrenburg wakes the basest instincts of the steppe. Anyone who will retreat now is a scoundrel, for German soldiers are protecting their own wives now.”

Sometime ago the Germans forged documents of state importance. Now they sunk to the point that they are faking my articles. The quotes that the German general attributes to me expose the author: only a German would be able to compose such a dirty thing.

Fritzes are professional rapists, fornicators with solid experience, hereditary baboons. They have polluted the whole of Europe. In vain the General is insisting that we go to Germany after German females. We are not attracted to Gretchens, only to those Fritzes who abused our women, and we say bluntly that for these Germans there will be no mercy. As for the German women, they evoke in us only one feeling: disgust. We despise the German women for what they are – mothers, wives and sisters of the executioners. We despise the German women for what they wrote to their sons, husbands and brothers, “Send your honey a pretty fur coat.” We despise the German women for what they are: thieves and prostitutes.

We do not need blond hyenas. We’re going to Germany for something else: for Germany itself. And this blond witch is not going to escape from us. (Red Star, 25 November 1944)


***

After the horrible war crimes and mass rapes in East Prussia became known, Ehrenburg made a trip there. Back in Moscow, he appeared at the Frunze Military Academy and blamed officers for poor political and moral preparation of soldiers and for the lack of stringent measures against rapists and looters. For this, he reportedly had problems with the Party.


Image
Rostock, East Germany
And there is also this as well.
http://shoabloger.wordpress.com/2013/09 ... burg-1942/
September 22, 2013 by rafikorn
“Kill” – full text by Ilya Ehrenburg (1942)


This leaflet for Soviet soldiers was written in July 1942, at the time of German summer offensive deep into the Ukraine and Russia. The communists were scared to death, no less than in 1941 when the Wehrmacht stood at the outskirts of Moscow. Comrade Ehrenburg did not know at the time, if or when the Red army would reach Germany. He was trying to save the skins of his criminal friends in the Kremlin. However, later, when the Soviets were entering Germany, he repeated the words, which had genocidal consequences.


Kill!

Here are excerpts from three letters found on dead Germans.

Manager Reinhardt writes to Lieutenant Otto von Schirach:

“The French have been taken away to a factory. I have selected six Russians from the Minsk district. They are much tougher than the French. Only one of them died, the others continue to work in the fields and on the farm. Their upkeep does not cost anything, and we do not have to be sorry that these animals, whose children may be killing our soldiers, are eating German bread. Yesterday I had to flog two Russian beasts that secretly devoured skim milk that was destined for sows … “

Mathias Ziemlich writes to his brother, Corporal Heinrich Ziemlich:

“In Leiden there is a camp for Russian, where we can watch them. They are not afraid of weapons, so we talk to them a good lash … “

One Otto Essmann writes to Lieutenant Helmut Weygand:

“We’ve got Russian POWs. These types eat earthworms on the airfield, they rummage in garbage cans. I’ve seen them eat weeds. To think that these are human beings!! .. “

Slave owners, they want to turn our people into slaves. They kidnap to the Russians, brutalize them, bring them to madness with hunger, so that, dying, people are eating grass and worms; and a filthy German with a rotten cigar in his mouth philosophizes: “Is this humans? ..”

We know everything. We remember everything. We understand: the Germans are not human beings. From now on, the word “German” is for us the worst curse. From now on, the word “German” discharges the gun. We shall not discuss. We shall not get excited. We shall kill. If you have not killed at least one German in the day, your day is wasted. If you think that your neighbor will kill a German for you, you do not understand the threat. If you do not kill a German, the German will kill you. He will take your loved ones away and will torment them in their accursed Germany. If you can not kill a German with a bullet, kill him with bayonet. If there is calm in your sector, if you are waiting for a battle, kill the German before the battle. If you leave the German alive, he will hang a Russian man and violate a Russian woman. If you have killed one German, kill another – nothing is more joyful for us than German corpses. Do not count days. Do not count miles. Count one thing only: the Germans killed by you. Kill the Germans! – begs your old mother. Kill the Germans! – begs you child. Kill the Germans! – screams your native soil. Do not miss. Do not miss the aim. Kill!

(Red Star, 24 July 1942)


Image
the original leaflet
If the translation is accurate and the photoraph below is in fact the original Russian article, then it seems to me somone was competing with Ehrenburg in the realm of propaganda when they expounded upon his documented hatred and put a few extra words into his mouth that were not there after all.

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Werd
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Re: Did Ilya Ehrenburg demand killing German women and child

Post by Werd »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AIlya_Ehrenburg
I wish also to clarify this paragraph in the wiki-article:

Other historians challenge Ehrenburg's authorship of the infamous "Kill"-leaflet. Their arguments are based on the absence of known original Soviet copies of the leaflet from archives and an article by the alleged author in the Krasnaya Zvezda dated November 24, 1944 in which Ehrenburg explicitly denies his authorship of the "Kill" leaflet. [2] (German) A few historians even claim the "Kill" leaflet to be a fabrication of the Nazi Propagandaministerium, invented to strengthen the German resistance during the final months of the war.

There is a confusion. The leaflet mention there was a Nazi fake. It also called “Kill” but has another words:

"Kill! Kill! In the German race there is nothing but evil; not one among the living, not one among the yet unborn but is evil! Follow the precepts of Comrade Stalin. Stamp out the fascist beast once and for all in its lair! Use force and break the racial pride of these Germanic women. Take them as your lawful booty. Kill! As you storm onward, kill, you gallant soldiers of the Red Army."
http://www.natvan.com/free-speech/fs983a.html


These words never were written by Ehrenburg. And in his article “Blonde witch” (title hints to Blonde beast = ubermensh) in the Krasnaya Zvezda dated November 25, 1944 Ehrenburg wrote:

"There was a time, when Germans used to fake important documents of state. Now they have fallen so low as to fake my articles. The quotes that German general ascribed to me betrayed their’s author: only the German is able to make up this dirty"
I think saying Ehrenburg never wrote "Kill" is a bit of an overreach. A desperate attempt to disprove he never advocated rape. You can clearly admit he wrote "Kill" as a propaganda leaflet without having to accept he advocated rape.

The following is taken from the book Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape by Susan Brownmiller.

http://s21.postimg.org/5hwh97nh3/againstwill.jpg

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Cerdic
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Re: Did Ilya Ehrenburg demand killing German women and child

Post by Cerdic »

Thanks for pointing this out. Both historians and some revisionist sources have taken the original "Kill" article out of context, and the fabricated 1944 "Kill" article is also occasionally repeated as if real.

I've seen a lot of speculation about why some Red Army soldiers raped German women. Most of it backed up by prejudice and not evidence TBH.
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

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Re: Did Ilya Ehrenburg demand killing German women and child

Post by Werd »

I would also like to point out that the posters on the axishistory forum solved this over a decade ago. Apparently, the non revisionists on there were also correct about the lack of primary Russian sources where Ehrenburg said anything like that. When you read the first five pages, Michael Mills is unable to provide such evidence.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23999
After that, it kind of veers off the whole claim of Ehrenburg sanctioning rape.

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been-there
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Re: Did Ilya Ehrenburg demand killing German women and child

Post by been-there »

Alexander Pylcin wrote:Overwhelming hate toward SS men, Aryans and anything German was taking us over. It's not right, today I understand, but hate toward enemies was firmly in our conscience. Phrases like "you can't beat the enemy if you don't learn to hate him with all your soul" or "if the enemy doesn't surrender, he should be destroyed" were remembered. So we learned to hate, and strived to destroy them.
Posters, newspapers, movies and slashing publications of Ilya Ehrenburg and other famous writers called for: "Kill the German!". We understood that we have to kill those, who came to our homeland with fire and sword, but in contradiction to logic our hate spread on every German, on everything German, except for the legal war booty that we took.

-- Alexander Pylcin.
Penalty Strike: The Memoirs of a Red Army Penal Company Commander, 1943-45. Pg 134.
Dr Joachim Hoffmann wrote:...Ehrenburg's articles, some of which were translated into the English language, were [not] received with approval everywhere in Great Britain and the USA. In 1945, for example, a well-known New York magazine called for a protest against the "cruelty of Soviet writers such as Alexei Tolstoy and Ilya Ehrenburg".
On October 26 and November 23, 1944, Ehrenburg was publicly compelled to reply to a lady Gibb, who had written to him as follows:
You call forth a very, very old evil in the hearts of the Russian people, i.e. the desire for revenge after victory has been won. This old, old evil... brings the victor no blessings... We are very anxious to see you place your great talents in the service of Russia on behalf of a just and lasting peace, which can never be based on self-righteousness and the lust for revenge.

... Ehrenburg answered, quoting from the alleged letter of a lieutenant Zinchenko, who was said to have written in shock:
"My mother is religious too, and in the name of religion she asks 'kill the Germans with my blessings' ".

Ehrenburg added: "One must not pity a wild beast, rather, one must destroy it... that is the opinion of our people, dear Lady"

-- Dr Joachim Hoffmann. Stalin’s War of Extermination. Pgs. 159-160
Ilya Ehrenburg wrote:They [released foreign workers] are not concerned with what happens to the Germans, whether we should teach morals to what remains of them or feed them oatmeal broth. No. This young Europe has long known that the best Germans are the dead Germans...
The problem that the Russians and Poles are presumably attempting to solve is whether it is better to kill the Germans with axes or clubs. They are not interested in reforming the inhabitants... They are only interested in reducing their numbers. And it is my modest opinion that the Russians and Poles... are right".

-- An excerpt of an Ilya Ehrenburg article from Soviet War News of 19 October 1944, as quoted by Hoffmann.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
-- Anonymous

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Re: Did Ilya Ehrenburg demand killing German women and child

Post by theblackrabbitofinlé »

Cerdic wrote:Thanks for pointing this out. Both historians and some revisionist sources have taken the original "Kill" article out of context, and the fabricated 1944 "Kill" article is also occasionally repeated as if real.

I've seen a lot of speculation about why some Red Army soldiers raped German women. Most of it backed up by prejudice and not evidence TBH.
There was a big slogan painted up in our canteen, "Have you killed a German yet? Then kill him!" We were strongly influenced by Ehrenburg's appeals and we had a lot to take revenge for. The hatred was so great that it was difficult to control the soldiers.
— Cypherene with the 1st Belorussian Front
Antony Beevor, Berlin: The Downfall 1945, London: Viking, 2002, p. 170.
We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsel, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

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Re: Did Ilya Ehrenburg demand killing German women and child

Post by theblackrabbitofinlé »

There's also Constantine Simonov's immensely popular poem 'Kill Him'

If you don't want to give away
Her you walked with and didn't touch,
Her you didn't dare even to kiss
For a long time - you loved her so much,
And the Germans cornering her
And taking her alive by force,
Crucifying her - three of them
Naked, on the floor; with coarse
Moans, hate, and blood, -
Those dogs taking advantage of
All you sacredly preserved
With your strong, male love.

...

So kill at least one of them
And as soon as you can. Still
Each one you chance to see!
Kill him! Kill him! Kill!


Simonov also wrote a report on Majdanek.

Image
We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsel, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

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Re: Did Ilya Ehrenburg demand killing German women and child

Post by theblackrabbitofinlé »

Image
Soviet Wars News Weekly, October 1, 1942, p.6
We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsel, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

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Cerdic
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Re: Did Ilya Ehrenburg demand killing German women and child

Post by Cerdic »

theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:
Cerdic wrote:Thanks for pointing this out. Both historians and some revisionist sources have taken the original "Kill" article out of context, and the fabricated 1944 "Kill" article is also occasionally repeated as if real.

I've seen a lot of speculation about why some Red Army soldiers raped German women. Most of it backed up by prejudice and not evidence TBH.
There was a big slogan painted up in our canteen, "Have you killed a German yet? Then kill him!" We were strongly influenced by Ehrenburg's appeals and we had a lot to take revenge for. The hatred was so great that it was difficult to control the soldiers.
— Cypherene with the 1st Belorussian Front
Antony Beevor, Berlin: The Downfall 1945, London: Viking, 2002, p. 170.
theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:There's also Constantine Simonov's immensely popular poem 'Kill Him'

If you don't want to give away
Her you walked with and didn't touch,
Her you didn't dare even to kiss
For a long time - you loved her so much,
And the Germans cornering her
And taking her alive by force,
Crucifying her - three of them
Naked, on the floor; with coarse
Moans, hate, and blood, -
Those dogs taking advantage of
All you sacredly preserved
With your strong, male love.

...

So kill at least one of them
And as soon as you can. Still
Each one you chance to see!
Kill him! Kill him! Kill!


Simonov also wrote a report on Majdanek.

Image
theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:Image
Soviet Wars News Weekly, October 1, 1942, p.6
...So this backs up what Werd and I already said. Ehrenburg called on Red Army soldiers to kill German soldiers.

On atleast 4 instances, Ehrenburg explicitly rejected committing war crimes against Germans like the Germans had done to the Soviet people, and in one of these instances explictly rejected raping German women:
Germans burned houses with people inside, tied elderly women to horses' tails, acted outrageously, tormented defenceless, raped. No, we will not pay them with the same coin! Our hate — is a fine feeling, it demands trial, not reprisal, scourge or violence.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1362529

and in early 1945:
We do not fight against children and old women. We are not fascists. And we came to Germany not to relieve our vengeance but to destroy even the memory of the state-vampire.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3&start=30
But the Soviet soldier will not touch the woman. But the Soviet soldier will not scoff at the German woman or pay compliments to it: he above her, he despises her for she was the wife of the executioner, for she has brought up the fanatic. Silently the Soviet soldier will pass by the German woman: he has come to Germany not for booty, not for scrub, not for concubines, he has come to Germany for justice. He has come not to examine a silly and greedy doll but to tame Germany..
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... h#p1364103

and the 1944 letter to lady Gibb of GB:
We will not kill children but we will kill those Germans who wanted to kill us.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3&start=45
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

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Re: Did Ilya Ehrenburg demand killing German women and child

Post by theblackrabbitofinlé »

Ehrenburg's inflammatory rhetoric often did not accord with his own views. In his article ('Khvatit' = Enough), he implicitly condoned looting — 'Well, German women are losing fur coats and spoons that had been stolen' — when in Red Army parlance looting often implicitly included rape. Yet he had recently lectured officers at the Frunze military academy, criticizing Red Army looting and destruction in East Prussia and blaming it on the troops' 'extremely low' level of culture. His only reference to rape, however, was to say that Soviet soldiers 'were not refusing "the compliments" of German women'.
Antony Beevor, Berlin: The Downfall 1945, London: Viking, 2002, p. 197.
Well into the new war, at a session of the War Commission of the Writers’ Union in January 1943, Ehrenburg was to recall that because he knew Germany already, “from the beginning of the war, I was deeply convinced that we are fighting not just against the Hitlerites, but also against the Germans.” His public hatred was racist, denouncing Germans of all times as inherently bad— and the solution he demanded was killing or some other kind of destruction.

That Ehrenburg came to believe this is almost certain. In December 1943 he attended the tribunal in Kharkiv (though not the public hanging that immediately followed it). As another writer testified in his diary, Ehrenburg told other attendees that “all Fritzes ages sixteen to thirty-five” had to be killed. Tolstoi went even further: all of them had to be exterminated. In the train back to Moscow foreign correspondents conversed with both men. Edmund Stevens of the Christian Science Monitor recalled that “nothing could alter [Ehrenburg’s] conviction that Nazi cruelty was an atavism of a people who had always been barbarians.”
“I once knew a good German,” Ehrenburg remarked between puffs of his pipe, “but I lost track of him many years ago. I don’t even know if he’s still alive— I seriously doubt it. . . . If you only knew,” he added, “how sick and tired I am of Germans, Germans, Germans! When in the name of heaven will we have time to think and talk of something besides Germans? After all the suffering they've caused, after all the towns they’ve destroyed, no punishment ever devised would be severe enough. The trouble is that our Russians are too kind- hearted. Even if you tried, you couldn't order our Russian soldiers to do any of the things to German civilians that the German soldiers have done to ours. It’s a pity in a way.”
He ridiculed as sentimentalism the distinction between the Germans and the Nazis, Stevens recalled, who “objected for the sake of argument: ‘But suppose the Germans overthrew Hitler of their own free will and welcomed the advancing Red Army by getting out the old red flags and singing the Internationale?’ ‘Those,’ said Ehrenburg,‘would be the first people we should shoot.’ ”

[...]

He also wrote, in late 1944, “We despise the German women for whothey are— mothers, wives, and sisters of hangmen.” The conquest of Germany “won’t end well for the blond witch.” Regardless of whether “Germans” to Ehrenburg meant only German occupiers (as his memoirs stated), the fact remains that he preached hatred for all Germans.
Karel C. Berkhoff, Motherland in Danger: Soviet Propaganda During World War II, Harvard University Press, 2012, p. 183-192
We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsel, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

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