Why didn't accused Nazis ensure the truth would be heard?

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been-there
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Why didn't accused Nazis ensure the truth would be heard?

Post by been-there »

C'mon. You are living in a delusion and avoiding the known facts.
Look at what happened to Dr. Mengele. He DID protest his innocence from the anonymous safety of Brazil. He wrote it all down too. After his death his son came into possession of all post-war writings, auto-biography ( "Fiat Lux" meaning "Let There Be Light") and diaries and auctioned them off. As I understand it, they were purchased by a wealthy 'Jewish' bidder and as far as I know we have never yet got to see it. I wonder why?

Image

And then his family and friends, they DID protest his innocence.
Ever read any of that?
If not consider for a moment why that is.
Look at his reputation today, despite all that.

Then his son made it through to meet him in Brazil in the 1970's. Did you know about that? Watch this edited video clip. See if you can find an unedited version anywhere.
When Rolf asked him about the things said about his activities in Auschwitz he protested his innocence of the accusations made against him very passionately saying "how can you imagine that this is possible for me to have done those things. Can't you see at the first line that this is a lie and propaganda."

Rolf insists his mother had also never known that her husband had done the things he is accused of in the war. She understood he was treating prisoners at Auschwitz who suffered from typhoid and typhus fever.

Mengele himself attributed the responsibility for his own mother’s post-war death to ‘incompetent’ doctors that the Allies brought in to replace ‘good’ Nazi doctors. Moreover, according to the researcher, he blames those who made "false accusations" against him for the loss of his mother.

Mengele could afford to say what he liked post-war in Brazil. Those in Germany could not. Yet look how despite all this his name is still used to represent some demonic icon of evil sadism.

Mengele himself repeatedly insisted that he had not committed any crime, and that instead he had become a victim of a great injustice: "I personally have not killed, injured or caused bodily harm to anyone."
New York Times, June 14, 1985; Baltimore Sun, June 14, 1985

Of the sets of child twins from Auschwitz who were experimented on by Dr. Mengele, interviewed forty years after the war, many of them are recorded as describing Mengele as a "gentle, affable man" who had befriended them as children and became a sort of father figure to them.
And yet the recorders of these twins' positive testimony wrote it in such a way to make us the readers think that these child twins had been 'tricked' and deceived by Mengele, thus only could they remember him and his kindness to them so favourably:
Some forty years after the war, only a 100 sets of these twins could be found, many living in Israel and the United States. Strangely enough, many of them recall Mengele as a gentle, affable man who befriended them as children and gave them chocolates. Since many had immediately been separated from their families upon entering the camp, Mengele became a sort of father figure.
'Children of the Flames; Dr. Josef Mengele and the Untold Story of the Twins of Auschwitz' by Lucette Matalon Lagnado and Sheila Cohn Dekel. 'Mengele; the Complete Story' by Gerald Posner and John Ware.
http://www.longwood.k12.ny.us/lhs/scien ... ngele.html
In 1985 the second wife of Mengele was traced to Meran, South Tyrol by journalists who attempted to interview her. Mrs. Martha Mengele was described as a respected member of the Meran community. She limited her remarks to a denial that her husband had committed the deeds that earned him the name 'Angel of Death': "It's all lies and propaganda" the Bild am Sonntag newspaper quoted her as saying.
Chicago Tribune. January 8th, 2012.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1985 ... ef-mengele

In 1960 Hans Sedlmeier returned from Asuncion, Paraguay with a statement from Mengele that said, "I personally have not killed, injured or caused bodily harm to anyone."
Mengele repeatedly insisted that he had not committed any crime, and that instead he had become a victim of a great injustice. This appeared in the Chicago Tribune in an article entitled: 'Mengele family keeps uneasy silence' by Alice Siegert. June 9th, 1985.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1985 ... sef-mengel

The same story appeared in the New York Times, June 14, 1985 and in the Baltimore Sun, June 14th, 1985. Yet what good did this protestation of innocence achieve?
Last edited by been-there on Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lewishjiars
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Re: Why didn't accused Nazis ensure the truth would be heard

Post by Lewishjiars »

Interesting, been-there. Dr Mengele makes a persuasive witness about the lies that have become history, but one notes that many of the so called
most evil Nazis were never captured nor tried. This includes Christian Wirth, Lorenz Hackenholt and Mengele. These were the three men most associated with sadistic excess and wanton brutality. It is hard to believe that a man so high on the hierarchy of jewish targets as Mengele was never captured.

been-there's posted testimony suggests that the authorities may not have wanted to put Mengele on trial as he was known to shoot from the hip and not to mince words. One also notes that Heinrich Himmler, the so called architect of "The Final Solution," also never appeared in court. His daughter, Gudrun, like Mengele's son, portrayed him as a humanitarian and loving father. http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Gudrun_Burwitz Mrs Burwitz also believes that Herr Himmler was murdered by the English. He, too, may have been an embarrassing witness.

One wonders if the Allies carefully picked those who could be most intimidated to comply with the Hoax, while avoiding those whose character and commitment to truth made them threatening to orthodox belief about Nazism.

been-there is absolutely correct to note that many Nazis did not comply with the authorities. In fact, all of those tried at Nuremberg denied any knowledge of the alleged "crimes" against the jews.

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Re: Why didn't accused Nazis ensure the truth would be heard

Post by Nessie »

The Nazis should have kept all documentation relating to the Final Solution and left the AR camps untouched. That way, as you claim they would have ensured the truth would be heard.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Why didn't accused Nazis ensure the truth would be heard

Post by Bernard »

Is been-there kidding us? The premise that he is foisting on us is entirely and viciously attacked by the links that been-there provides.
It would be as if one argued that sharks were small, furry, friendly creatures, and then provided supporting photos of mangled, bloody, chewed up body parts and dismembered corpses of shark attacks.

The interview with Rolf has Junior quoting Pops as stating that he participated in selections and could do nothing to help the multitudes of victims of "the system." Rolf said that Mengele alleged that he helped 'a few.'

How does been-there imagine that this interview suggests anything about Auschwitz that we don't all know? Rolf makes it clear that his dad's only exculpatory argument was that he (Mengele) could not do anything to help these doomed masses. Nowhere does Junior suggest that Dad denied that the crimes occurred. We have nothing from Doc Mengele slobbering about gas chambers being mythical, or hoaxed or fabricated.

All we have is the usual Nazi exculpatory bullshit about following orders and being well meaning.

Whose side is been-there on? I considor been-there to be my teammate, my comrade. Well done, friend!

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been-there
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Re: Why didn't accused Nazis ensure the truth would be heard

Post by been-there »

Bernard wrote:The interview with Rolf has Junior quoting Pops as stating that he participated in selections and could do nothing to help the multitudes of victims of "the system." Rolf said that Mengele alleged that he helped 'a few.'
How does been-there imagine that this interview suggests anything about Auschwitz that we don't all know? Rolf makes it clear that his dad's only exculpatory argument was that he (Mengele) could not do anything to help these doomed masses. Nowhere does Junior suggest that Dad denied that the crimes occurred. We have nothing from Doc Mengele slobbering about gas chambers being mythical, or hoaxed or fabricated.
Listen again, Rolf contradicted himself. First he said His father claimed to have helped "many".

Then understand the context. Rolf was being accused of protecting his father's anonymity and whereabouts for six years. He was himself in the firing line.

Then consider the context of this thread. He already talks of himself and his family having to face harassment, intimidation and suspicion because of whose son he was. Imagine what his life would have been like if he had started to defend his father and maintain his possible innocence.

As for claiming that nowhere does Rolf "suggest that Dad denied that the crimes occurred" you are ignoring all the other quotes I provided from Mengele himself, from his friends, from his wife and from his business partner which did do exactly that.
PLUS the interview with Rolf wasn't complete. Why was a part edited out?

And then there is a clear self-delusion going on in your mind here. Yes Mengele admitted he was involved in selections. But which revisionist ever denied there were "selections"?

Then you are ignoring the fact that 'jewish' children testified he was an affable and gentle person who became a father figure to them. I bet you didn't know that, did you? Ask yourself why that is. E.g. This part of the research into surviving Auschwitz twins has been censored in the quotation from that book that appears in the wiki article on Mengele.

And why haven't his diaries and autobiography suggesting 'let there be light' on all this, been made available to historians?
Etc., etc., etc.

The point here is that Josef Mengele is an example of someone who DID protest his innocence. Who DID write his version of events. And whose family and friends DID relate that he maintained innocence. His son did so very carefully and limitedly, presumably to assure he himself could lead some semblance of a normal life. He admitted he would rather have had another father for all the grief his real father's identity brought him.
DP is under the false belief that none of the german accused did that, and he deludedly is asking the quite stupid and uninformed question why didn't many others do what Mengele attempted.
This is EXACTLY THE POINT of this thread: to explain why those Germans who had been accused themselves, and their families, why in nearly all cases they kept their heads down and accepted the false accusations in order to be able to get on with whatever life they could.
The treatment that Christophersen and Stäglich and Zündel got for doing otherwise should be an obvious explanation. The fact that it isn't demonstrates the denial and self-delusion being displayed here by DP and Bernard.
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Re: Why didn't accused Nazis ensure the truth would be heard

Post by Cerdic »

Rolf says that his father tried to save some people at the Selections. Why would Mengele need to save anybody if the fate of one of the two Selected groups was not the gas chambers? If there were no gas chambers, what exactly was he saving people from?

Also notice the reference to a "horrible organisation and system" from which Mengele said could not save hundreds of thousands of people.
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

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Re: Why didn't accused Nazis ensure the truth would be heard

Post by Cerdic »

Then you are ignoring the fact that 'jewish' children testified he was an affable and gentle person who became a father figure to them. I bet you didn't know that, did you?
According to your link, this is what Mengele did to the Jewish, er, "jewish" children:
Twins undergoing his experiments didn't know what the objectives were. It is known that he had a special pathology lab where he performed autopsies on twins who had died from experiements. It was located next to the crematorium. Mengele's experiments both physical and psychological; experimental surgeries performed without anesthesia, transfusions of blood from one twin to another, isolation endurance, reaction to various stimuli, injections with lethal germs, sex change operations, the removal of organs and limbs, incestuous impregnations. One twin recalls the death of his brother:
Dr. Mengele had always been more interested in Tibi. I am not sure why--perhaps because he was the older twin. Mengele made several operations on Tibi. One surgery on his spine left my brother paralyzed. He could not walk anymore. Then they took out his sexual organs. After the fourth operation, I did not see Tibi anymore. I cannot tell you how I felt. It is impossible to put into words how I felt. They had taken away my father, my mother, my two older brothers--and now, my twin.
I guess Mengele giving chocolate to some of these twins compensates for these awful medical experiments he carried out on them.

The possibility that the twins are lying about their experiences is made unlikely by the fact they note the "gentle, affable" facade of Mengele. If they were making up an atrocity story, they would try to make Mengele look as bad as possible and not invent a good detail about him, even if it is minor compared to his crimes.

More later when I have time.
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

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Re: Why didn't accused Nazis ensure the truth would be heard

Post by Bernard »

been-there
Then you are ignoring the fact that 'jewish' children testified he was an affable and gentle person who became a father figure to them. I bet you didn't know that, did you?
In truth, I have read through some astonishingly obscure sources on Mengele that offer information on the odd fits of kindness that punctuated the good doctor's frenzy of predatory zeal. So, yes, your pompous assumption that this writer is not aware of the Wikipedia entry on Mengele is typically amusing preening on your part, been-there.

He was capable of being so kind to the children, to have them become fond of him, to bring them sugar, to think of small details in their daily lives, and to do things we would genuinely admire ... And then, next to that, ... the crematoria smoke, and these children, tomorrow or in a half-hour, he is going to send them there. Well, that is where the anomaly lay.

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been-there
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Re: Why didn't accused Nazis ensure the truth would be heard

Post by been-there »

Cerdic wrote:
Then you are ignoring the fact that 'jewish' children testified he was an affable and gentle person who became a father figure to them. I bet you didn't know that, did you?
I guess Mengele giving chocolate to some of these twins compensates for these awful medical experiments he carried out on them.
The possibility that the twins are lying about their experiences is made unlikely by the fact they note the "gentle, affable" facade of Mengele. If they were making up an atrocity story, they would try to make Mengele look as bad as possible and not invent a good detail about him, even if it is minor compared to his crimes.
Are you able to consider the possibility that the ones who "strangely" related that he was "gentle and affable" and that he who had befriended them and became a "father figure" to them are NOT the same twins who claimed/made up atrocity stories about him! ( :roll:

Again, what we have here is believers suffering under the 'Emperor's new clothes syndrome'. Certain people simply will not admit the possibility that they have been duped. Its easier to dupe people than to convince them they've been duped.
They would rather believe the sensationalised testimony of the majority, even though it is contradicted by a minority of eye-witnesses who have nothing to gain from contradicting the accepted narrative by being more honest.
The obvious explanation for why so many "survivors" claim to have personally been selected by 'evil' Dr. Mengele in contradiction of all reasonable considerations, and why so many people CHOSE to believe and align their own narrative with the rumours of ridiculously unscientific and ludicrously sadistic 'experiments' being conducted without ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL FOR THEM, is because they want to be a minor celebrity, a participant and an actor in the greatest ever horror show.

Try instead to consider just for a moment the alternative understanding to the current majority one: Mengele didn't do horrible experiments; he actually was a gentle and friendly doctor whose role was to save lives; rumours about his genuine interest in twins has been exaggerated and distorted; the surviving twins who "strangely" attested that he befriended them, gave them chocolates, became a father figure, was gentle and affable, and who remembered him warmly, were actually the ONLY ones who were telling the truth and not going along with the herd-mentality.

Just try it on.

Now consider what he and his friends and family said in light of this alternative understanding.
Last edited by been-there on Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why didn't accused Nazis ensure the truth would be heard

Post by Turnagain »

Dr. Mengele had always been more interested in Tibi. I am not sure why--perhaps because he was the older twin. Mengele made several operations on Tibi. One surgery on his spine left my brother paralyzed. He could not walk anymore. Then they took out his sexual organs. After the fourth operation, I did not see Tibi anymore. I cannot tell you how I felt. It is impossible to put into words how I felt. They had taken away my father, my mother, my two older brothers--and now, my twin.
Awww, poor little Tibi. Say, after poor little Tibi lost his package did his bubba have to go live with some wolves? Did he have to go hide under the outhouse to keep the eeevil Dr. Mengele from whacking off his package, too? Tell us the real story, Cerdic.
Last edited by Turnagain on Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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